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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are developers powerless to truly stop bots?

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94 posts found
  FrodoFragins

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2757

 
OP  10/04/12 10:48:11 AM#21
Originally posted by Pivotelite

I don't know how EME did it, but TERA NA was the most bot-free MMO I ever played, I saw maybe 3 total in the whole time I played.

 

1 cash spammer in global and 2 bots farming mobs in three towers spires over the 5 months I played. Sure, there was probably more but honestly, If I only saw 3 there weren't that many, I remember playing so many games in the past that were just flooded with bots, Aion, Runescape, even GW2 seems to be absolutely jam packed with them.

Just as virus/trojan developers tend to target the most successful OS, bot writers and gold sellers tend to focus on the most successful games.  It's hard to know if TERA isn't overrun with bots/gold sellers because of the developers or because it's just not successful enough to encourage cheaters.  I also don't now how the economy works in TERA.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 10:49:17 AM#22
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
 

Didn't FF try something like that where you couldn't go back to the desktop or start any other programs while FF was running in an attempt to stop any kind of botting/cheating programs (the game wouldn't launch with them already running) and people hated it because it was annoying to play with?

 

If you put in such severe restrictions to try and stop botters, they'll just get around it. Then regular players are worse off for no good reason.

Yeah but that was because that was not explained and because it was SE solo effort.   If that would be supported by OS and biggest players it would be adopted. 

If you don't do nothing about it - it will make mmos die on PC.   Not because consoles are cheaper or simplier but because botting and in-game hacks are growing pain on legit players and game devs.  In 5 years most of biggest mmorpg's will be released on consoles as well and rebirth of PC was in BIG WAY because of mmos and non-mmo multilayer games.

Botters will in fact find a way around any of those security measures. The same way that despite safeguards people hack government agencies, companies and banks.

 

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

  FrodoFragins

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2757

 
OP  10/04/12 10:50:28 AM#23
Originally posted by Xzen

Yes I know gold sellers are successful in WoW. They are successful in all mmorpgs. All they can do is ban bots as quickly as possible and remove the gold they farmed from the system.

My point is that you don't want a system that catches bots after the fact.  You want to catch them as soon as they start.  Otherwise it's whack a mole with new accounts being hacked daily.

 

Ideally you would detect that another process is accessing your memory and shut them down.

 

 

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3703

10/04/12 10:50:49 AM#24
Originally posted by Pivotelite

I don't know how EME did it, but TERA NA was the most bot-free MMO I ever played, I saw maybe 3 total in the whole time I played.

 

1 cash spammer in global and 2 bots farming mobs in three towers spires over the 5 months I played. Sure, there was probably more but honestly, If I only saw 3 there weren't that many, I remember playing so many games in the past that were just flooded with bots, Aion, Runescape, even GW2 seems to be absolutely jam packed with them.

Popularity + difficulty obtaining gold = lots of botting... WOW and GW2 are probably the worst at the moment. I played Tera a bit and never found a reason to want more gold than what I could get through normal play...and its player base was and is also much smaller than WOW or GW2.

  Muntz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 279

10/04/12 10:50:52 AM#25

I content with a client side interface there is always the potential to exploit it. I recently read an article on how Blizzard over time had implemented server side checks for teleport hacks. The check are not even close to 100%. I think if they were it would drag the system to it's knees, there is not even close to enough processing bandwidth to individually check each client for shenanigans. Doesn't mean developers shouldn't try or that they are powerless but you have to be realisitic in what can and cant be done. 

If we eliminate the client side I think they have a great shot but who is going to buy that game? It's like building a town but not allowing any people in it, it certainly wont have crime. 

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/04/12 10:53:15 AM#26
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
 

Didn't FF try something like that where you couldn't go back to the desktop or start any other programs while FF was running in an attempt to stop any kind of botting/cheating programs (the game wouldn't launch with them already running) and people hated it because it was annoying to play with?

 

If you put in such severe restrictions to try and stop botters, they'll just get around it. Then regular players are worse off for no good reason.

Yeah but that was because that was not explained and because it was SE solo effort.   If that would be supported by OS and biggest players it would be adopted. 

If you don't do nothing about it - it will make mmos die on PC.   Not because consoles are cheaper or simplier but because botting and in-game hacks are growing pain on legit players and game devs.  In 5 years most of biggest mmorpg's will be released on consoles as well and rebirth of PC was in BIG WAY because of mmos and non-mmo multilayer games.

Botters will in fact find a way around any of those security measures. The same way that despite safeguards people hack government agencies, companies and banks.

 

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

Stop it?  Sure it won't - it will minimize it though.   That's why goverment and companies still spend lot of cash on their defense systems even though they still get hacked.

 

If bots / hacks problems will be present but small on new gen consoles in mmos and in same mmos on pc this problem will be big - then pc mmos and gaming will take huge hit in groin.

  Pivotelite

Novice Member

Joined: 1/19/12
Posts: 2189

10/04/12 10:54:15 AM#27
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by Pivotelite

I don't know how EME did it, but TERA NA was the most bot-free MMO I ever played, I saw maybe 3 total in the whole time I played.

 

1 cash spammer in global and 2 bots farming mobs in three towers spires over the 5 months I played. Sure, there was probably more but honestly, If I only saw 3 there weren't that many, I remember playing so many games in the past that were just flooded with bots, Aion, Runescape, even GW2 seems to be absolutely jam packed with them.

Just as virus/trojan developers tend to target the most successful OS, bot writers and gold sellers tend to focus on the most successful games.  It's hard to know if TERA isn't overrun with bots/gold sellers because of the developers or because it's just not successful enough to encourage cheaters.  I also don't now how the economy works in TERA.

 Well in TERA gold is everything because of enchanting nonsense, people buy chronoscrolls from EME for $15 and sell them in-game for 1500g, which can be lost on two failed enchants in 5 seconds... I remember people found out the cash shop items could be put up on the broker(this was not EMEs intention) and everyone started buying them to sell on the broker for in-game gold.

 

You're right though, the game may have not been popular enough, especially now, but when it released there really was a lot of players and no cash spammers at all, something i'd appreciate in GW2, I get mail multiple times per day from bots and see it ruin the chat in all the major cities.

 

 

 

 

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3703

10/04/12 10:55:02 AM#28
Originally posted by Muntz

If we eliminate the client side I think they have a great shot but who is going to buy that game? It's like building a town but not allowing any people in it, it certainly wont have crime. 

The lag would be horrible... and it would be exploited. There is no permanent solution, just compromises of varying degrees of effectiveness.

  FrodoFragins

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2757

 
OP  10/04/12 10:55:26 AM#29
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

 

 

 

  Muntz

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/09
Posts: 279

10/04/12 10:58:07 AM#30
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Muntz

If we eliminate the client side I think they have a great shot but who is going to buy that game? It's like building a town but not allowing any people in it, it certainly wont have crime. 

The lag would be horrible... and it would be exploited. There is no permanent solution, just compromises of varying degrees of effectiveness.

Exactly what I was saying. The no client was a joke, any ui no matter how thin you try and make it is a client there is no way out. 

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3703

10/04/12 11:12:20 AM#31
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Muntz

If we eliminate the client side I think they have a great shot but who is going to buy that game? It's like building a town but not allowing any people in it, it certainly wont have crime. 

The lag would be horrible... and it would be exploited. There is no permanent solution, just compromises of varying degrees of effectiveness.

Exactly what I was saying. The no client was a joke, any ui no matter how thin you try and make it is a client there is no way out. 

Yes, I know we were in agreement. Interactive games have to be...err... interactive. Somethikng needs to happen at the user end and communicated to the server in some fashion... that can always be exploited.

 

Write enough delays and semi random emotes, dances and whatever into a script, make it a lengthy one and very few people would be able to tell that it's not a live player mashing the keyboard unless you stalk the toon for an hour and catch on to the pattern. I personally know a talented programmer/hacker who not only botted WOW but also one of the on-line poker sites. It wasn't a business for him--he just did it for his own personal enjoyment. It was the challenge that got his juices going.

 

We only notice the simple obvious ones.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 11:15:18 AM#32
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Muntz
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Muntz

If we eliminate the client side I think they have a great shot but who is going to buy that game? It's like building a town but not allowing any people in it, it certainly wont have crime. 

The lag would be horrible... and it would be exploited. There is no permanent solution, just compromises of varying degrees of effectiveness.

Exactly what I was saying. The no client was a joke, any ui no matter how thin you try and make it is a client there is no way out. 

Yes, I know we were in agreement. Interactive games have to be...err... interactive. Somethikng needs to happen at the user end and communicated to the server in some fashion... that can always be exploited.

 

Write enough delays and semi random emotes, dances and whatever into a script, make it a lengthy one and very few people would be able to tell that it's not a live player mashing the keyboard unless you stalk the toon for an hour and catch on to the pattern. I personally know a talented programmer/hacker who not only botted WOW but also one of the on-line poker sites. It wasn't a business for him--he just did it for his own personal enjoyment. It was the challenge that got his juices going.

 

We only notice the simple obvious ones.

Plenty of people have botted poker. The sad part is a few years ago, last time I played some online poker, I looked at PokerStars rules and they flat out said you could use programs to help you make decisions as long as you entered the moves. This meant you could use strong software that flat out told you what to do, you could do it, make money and oh well to everyone else. And of course with how it is written, it makes it tough for them to say you had the program running playing automatically while you weren't there.

 

It was there way of saying they didn't want to deal with it so just do it.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 11:18:16 AM#33
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

  FrodoFragins

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2757

 
OP  10/04/12 11:21:17 AM#34
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

So.  Why bother worrying about bots at all?  Or hacked accounts?  Just let them run rampant.

  kaiser3282

Tipster

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 2606

10/04/12 11:22:31 AM#35
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

Do you realize not all bots are for gold sellers? Theres tons of people spread amongst all the MMOs that bot for themselves so that they can let the bot do the work and level them up because they dont feel like doing it. Especially in F2P games because of their usual lengthy grind for levels.

Hell just look at private servers too. People bot there, but theres no gold selling going on. They bot simply to get ahead in the game without having to do any of the work.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 11:24:31 AM#36
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

So.  Why bother worrying about bots at all?  Or hacked accounts?  Just let them run rampant.

Same reason they keep flushing away billions of dollars trying to win the drug war. You have to LOOK like you're doing something and you care, otherwise everyone gets mad at you.

 

If a company were to be honest and say "Listen, we can't stop the bots. It isn't happening. So we're simply not going to spend money trying so we can instead invest that money into more content and features for you" people wouldn't be able to handle it and they'd quit.

 

Seriously, if you think that botting can and will be stopped, you are being naive. They can fight it, they can lessen it a bit, but they cannot stop it.

 

The closest you could get would be to make an MMO where nothing at all was tradeable in any way shape or form. Despite how unfun that would be, it still wouldn't fully stop it because people who buy accounts/characters and they'd sign up for power leveling services the botters run.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/04/12 11:28:00 AM#37
Originally posted by kaiser3282
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

Do you realize not all bots are for gold sellers? Theres tons of people spread amongst all the MMOs that bot for themselves so that they can let the bot do the work and level them up because they dont feel like doing it. Especially in F2P games because of their usual lengthy grind for levels.

Hell just look at private servers too. People bot there, but theres no gold selling going on. They bot simply to get ahead in the game without having to do any of the work.

This is my first day playing MMOs and I did not know people did such things, my apologies. Probably overly sarcastic but I don't think your first "question" was really necessary.

 

There is a difference.

 

First is the pure magnitude of it. Those botting while they're away to gain levels/resources are less than those who do it to sell gold. They also generally don't try to hack/steal accounts either.

Second: banning those accounts actually has an effect. It is a regular person who paid for this game and just lost money. They also lost time because even though they let a program level them up/gather their resources they just lost it all and would have to buy a new box/start a new sub and start over with the risk of losing it all again.

 

Those who do it for personal gain, don't steal accounts, don't sell gold are less of a problem and can actually be policed.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5037

10/04/12 11:28:02 AM#38
the only way to eliminate bots would probably be to encrypt the keystrokes, so that although a certain key always had the same action, the keystroke itself, was different, the token could very well be the time stamp, as without the encryption algorythm,  any bot that simulated keystrokes would be useless. only problem is chat would have to be unencrypted at the server side too, as the keystrokes for regular chat wouldnt make sense as the keyboard would in effect, have been 'scrambled' the other problem of course would be the increase in the amount of lag between keystroke and action, due to the need to unencrypt them.
  neobahamut20

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 333

We can only show them the path, but they have to be the ones to take it.

10/04/12 11:32:44 AM#39

Bots are easy to get rid of, programmatically.

However, when you buy a product, it is yours. It no longer belongs to the seller. Many countries have that constitutionalized, including the USA. Therefor, banning bots simply for botting can lead to a huge lawsuit. Outright banning is not a viable solution. You can ALWAYS get your account back, letters of intent are great. But that issue is minor compared to the real issue: Retards.

 

Yes, retards are the main botting problem. Retards are the "computer programmers" that get hacked. The security experts with a password that they use on 25 other sites. They are the ones who actually give their accounts to botters, who then steal the gold and spam your chats. So Anet is actually trying to force everyone to have a unique password. This, after a hack, forces the user to choose a password not already in their password DB. In the long run, it will work for 75% (approx) of the botting problems. You wont notice it in the first year, as most retards use an old password that is already in the botter's database. Those databases have 10 million entries.

 

Following greatly based on GW2:

Making gold a commodity rather than a necessity, it'd solve a huge chunk of botting. Legendaries and the likes should literally be unlocked through achieving, along with the removal of the consumable achieves most games have. This would halt the use of botting because there would be nothing to bot for. GW2 already uses that kind of currency in Karma. Trading post should award Karma for items picked up from there based on rarity. Remove capitalism from the game, you solve the gold selling bots for good. Honestly, if someone bots himself to 500k Karma, I DO NOT EVEN CARE.  PvP should have alternative pvp karma, as should WvWvW.

Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

10/04/12 11:34:08 AM#40
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

The only way it would ever stop is for gamers to stop buying the gold/services. Nothing else will stop it.

That will NEVER happen.  Ever.  Some people have little time to play games but plenty of disposable income.

 

If that is your stance, we might as well encourage bots.

It is not a stance, it is actual and undisputable fact. That is in all actuallity the only way that botting will ever stop. Nothing else, ever will make botting stop. EVER.

 

That is why my first post referenced the drug war. You can throw billions of dollars, lengthy jail terms and even death at people to try and stop something. But if there is enough profit to be made, they won't stop. With botting, an account gets closed so the punishment is far less and the profits are still very strong.

 

So yes, because there are a-holes who will always fund the botters, there will always be botters. It will never stop.

Do you close door to your apartment or your car?

Because you're aware nothing will stop robbing houses and robbing / stealing car?

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