Originally posted by strangewizard

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

I remember back in old WoW. Leveling was only a grind when you tried to bypass content . They had grinds built into the game, but if you did them appropriately, they made the game worth doing.

For example. I recall as a paladin, doing the quest line to get Verigan's Fist. It was a long haul but what a weapon for a low level pally. Remember the Tanaris quest to gather Dew glands? Oh what an awful quest. But it was one of Blizz's many built in grinds. Sure it sucked when you had to do it, but It was hella fun when 5 people in the middle of Sunken Temple were all Mosh Pit Rockin out. LOL. Or the Furlbog feather grind in Felwood. Yeah, that was a pain. Too many players just wanted to get past hated so they could go through the cave un-attacked. But I went to Honored before leaving Felwood. I got an awesome Leather Working belt pattern that was really worth getting. For a character in their 50s, it carried me to 60. Not to mention making a small fortune selling them in the AH. There was also the Ferelas quest for the Wild Leather cloaks. After getting the recipe, I stopped to do a little grinding to make these. Some were not so good, some were worth a lot in the AH.  There was also the 10 level quantum leap. Each level was an incremental power up, but the 10th levels were big ones. 

All these little things added up along the way and they truly enhanced the overall journey to cap. And since you spent days to weeks at a given level range, these little things were important and worth doing.

Now with levels lasting only hours, there is little point to maintaining professions while leveling. it's not even worth it to slow down enough to make appropriate gear anymore. It occurred to me in MoP right now, leveling a monk that the best way to level crafting is to wait until cap (or at least no sooner than 60) to start. then you can get flight and power level it much faster. Maintaining professions "at level" are useless time sinks now. and none of the formerly valuable rare and/or side recipies are even worth the time out of your path to visit the vendor to get much less an involved quest or rep grind. 

I recall starting a quest chain in the upper 60s during the TBC expansion that lead me through a long series of quest chains, then into a couple dungeons and then finally to the black temple where I had to take down a 5 man elite. I got a pair of quested blue pants that I never replaced on my hunter. I was in Gruuls #2 in DPS wearing blues. HA! Point is, that now, the pants have no value so neither does doing the quest chain. It's just easier to grind Heroics now to get any legs you need.  There was another 5 man quest in SMV that got me a cool looking Dragon head looking helm on my hunter. That was a great helm and lasted until I got my Tiered helm.

All these things that used to enhance the overall experience, that were things that were worth doing and weren't gotten from grinding dungeons and raids are gone. They are pointless and/or obsolete because they are harder to get than Epics.

 

Ah man you made me really nostalgic...

We need the meta game brought back. That's what's missing from today's MMOs

Leveling use to be the best part.

One reason I loved EQ.

It took me a long time to get max level.  So it sort of meant something to me to reach max level.  Even when I did achieve max level... there was still more improving the chaacter I could do through levelin AA's...

No.

I miss it too. :)

I agree!

It’s all about instant gratification now, levels, loot, selling, just about everything, and that's why, imho, most mmo's are doing so poorly. You can't make a game that satisfies everyone. If you make a game that's too easy like most games today why play?

Z.

op you got it excalty 

I remember in EQ took a year to get to lvl 50,  Best time ever.

You're right.  We should have to grind and grind over a super long period of time in order to....what?  Reach max level so we can grind and grind over a super long period of time to get some better armor and weapons?

No thanks.

As for GW2 leveling in a week...yeah ok.  Maybe  some people do it for some reason, but I've been playing regularly (say, maybe 8 hours per week, maybe slightly more) and my toon is 53.  So, I guess if people want to make the game their second job and play it 8hrs per day, yeah, they can level in a week.  But I would ask, why?  What's the point?  The game isn't about running to endgame.  It isn't about leveling, so why try to do it so quickly?  I say enjoy the game while your playing the game.  Stop trying to treat it like every WoW clone out there.

Originally posted by evolver1972

You're right.  We should have to grind and grind over a super long period of time in order to....what?  Reach max level so we can grind and grind over a super long period of time to get some better armor and weapons?

 Yah, thats what I miss.  This the thing that bugs me though.  You assume , atleast by your response it leads me to conclude, that  all we did was gind grind grind.  I remember throwing parties in games, hell even before they became a fixture in modern MMOs we had christmas and new years parties. ( Put togeather by the players themselves no  less..forgot that part. ) Oh guess what else we did.  We talked to each other.  We knew each other in real  life or pretty close to it.  I cant remember how long it has been since...shit...since Ive even cared enough to join a guild. 

  If the PvPers can get thier niche  games..why cant some small indy make a Old school throwback game.

No thanks.

 

As for GW2 leveling in a week...yeah ok.  Maybe  some people do it for some reason, but I've been playing regularly (say, maybe 8 hours per week, maybe slightly more) and my toon is 53.  So, I guess if people want to make the game their second job and play it 8hrs per day, yeah, they can level in a week.  But I would ask, why?  What's the point?  The game isn't about running to endgame.  It isn't about leveling, so why try to do it so quickly?  I say enjoy the game while your playing the game.  Stop trying to treat it like every WoW clone out there.

Originally posted by Gravarg

I guess you could call me old school, or a grumpy old man, but I truly miss the old days when it took at least 6 months to level to max level. 

GS3 originally had an average time-to-cap of a decade.

It's not a better or a worse approach; you remained entertained either way (provided you still have goals to chase).  The old grindfests just used simple leveling PVE as an extended carrot for as long as they could get away with it.  Then (usually) switched to raiding or PvP to keep bored-and-capped players hanging on for just a bit longer.

Given better (modern) 'endgames', the leveling content doesn't have to carry as much of the burden alone.

It's arguable whether simple hunting/normal PVE leveling will keep more or fewer players interested, in the long run.

Reading the forums over the last few years, I'd argue that there aren't many players with the patience to remain interested for a decade, anyway.  Sure, we've gathered a bunch of the outliers on this forum.  But compared to the overall MMO playing population, not many make it to the end of a decade without burning out and leaving the hobby entirely.

I do miss the older style MMOS.  I don't find anything really wrong with todays mmos so much, but personally I just can't seem to relate to my character when I played Rift and GW2 with the speed of leveling.  I look back at playing these 2 games and not one moment stands out to me as being special.  Rifts mentality was for the game to start at 60 and that's a shame.  It was also too linear as well.

Originally posted by coretex666

On one hand, I miss the old days you described. On the other hand, I have a very demanding job, so that it would be almost impossible for me to progress in this type of game. Back in times when I enjoyed these games, I was able to play 20 hours per day :).

Despite all that, I would still want the levelling to take that long.

I agree. I miss DAoC, but probably couldn't play like that any more. It's time has passed for me.

Originally posted by evolver1972

You're right.  We should have to grind and grind over a super long period of time in order to....what?  Reach max level so we can grind and grind over a super long period of time to get some better armor and weapons?

 

No thanks.

 

As for GW2 leveling in a week...yeah ok.  Maybe  some people do it for some reason, but I've been playing regularly (say, maybe 8 hours per week, maybe slightly more) and my toon is 53.  So, I guess if people want to make the game their second job and play it 8hrs per day, yeah, they can level in a week.  But I would ask, why?  What's the point?  The game isn't about running to endgame.  It isn't about leveling, so why try to do it so quickly?  I say enjoy the game while your playing the game.  Stop trying to treat it like every WoW clone out there.

In GW2, levels are devaluated and adjusted (forcefully) to match the content. So in reality, you aren't really "80" until you're done with the game. And even then, when you aren't entering other zones. They've only given you the illusion that you are really 80. So, that said, how does the following list not apply to your statement? Especially given that in much of this, you'll be down leveled while doing it, or your level doesn't really matter such as crafting. It's still the same. You are grinding.

http://guildwars2hub.com/features/editorials/80-things-do-level-80

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Originally posted by Gravarg

I guess you could call me old school, or a grumpy old man, but I truly miss the old days when it took at least 6 months to level to max level.  In today's games it takes maybe a week, if you're slow, to get to max level.  I truly believe that in MMOs, unlike other games, the "end" should never be there.  Yes, today's developers add in content for capped characters to do, but it's just not the same as leveling up.  Take Guild Wars 2 for instance, I heard that a player leveled from level 1-80 in 2 days...really?  That couldn't be fun at all, and it misses the whole point of MMOs.  I think alot of developers (and players) have forgotten that in MMOs the "endgame" isn't what MMOs are about.  It's about exploration, discovery, learning new things, and yes killing.  Old MMOs had more to do with learning than today's MMOs.  Today's MMOs you can log in day one, and never have to go find some spreadsheet telling you which weapon is best for your level.  Today's MMOs you never have to go to a wiki, or heaven-forbid, buy an actual book with a map and how-tos, just so you don't get lost.

 

I know there will probably never be a game like old EQ or old DAoC or old Ultima Online or really old Neverwinter Nights, back when it took a minimum of 6 months to get to the end.  Heck, in the original DAoC it took longer to get the last 2 levels than it does to get to cap in today's games.  Alas, there is no real reason for developers to make games like this anymore.  The majority of players aren't like me.  They want thier rewards upfront and as soon as possible.  They don't want to spend hours on end killing things or doing quests just to get a single level.  They want 20 levels in that time.

 

Just my two cents from an old dinosaur lol.

Stop playing videogeames 40+ hours a week and it'll take you longer...

I do not miss extremely long treadmills of levels, at least in the sense of a themepark mmo. Leveling can be a grand adventure, but the problem is that so many developers have two different games within their mmos. First is the leveling game, which can teach you about the game, the world, and how to play their particular game. However, it's largely unrewarding in the sense that you will have persistence in your rewards (aside from the gradual increases of power).

Once you reach end game in many mmos that's where the game truly begins. That's where the more rewarding content in (again, in terms of persistence), and more often than not, only challenging content is at the "end".

In so many ways, Asheron's Call had it right. Levels were more of a guideline and did offer some increases in power, but it was their XP allocation system that was truly where you got your power from. The random loot system was also rewarding, in the sense you had a chance at finding some really great stuff at pretty much any level of the game. You could dungeon crawl, or hunt across the wilds, or even camp in a decent outdoor spot for good xps and loot. Since there wasn't really an "endgame" there never really was a massively huge rush to level quickly through the game.

Too many players are too used to having artificial stop gaps in order to have an "endgame". Theoretically, in WoW you could stop at 60, 70, 80, and 85 and raid to your heart's content. The reality is that the content is now dated, and unrewarding, so practically no one stops to raid through the previous raid tiers.

We would have to have a game that had no levels, was skill based, and character progression more resembled stairs than an upward curve (I mean a mix of verticle and horizontal progression points). Traditional endgame content, such as raiding, would have to be adjusted so that there would be a point in doing it regardless of your overall skill level.

90% of developer time is spent on pre top level, 10% is spent on post top level. You work out what part of the game is going to be the best to play. MMO's need more mid level content to keep people subscribing for extra months to get to top level or enough faction structure and time spent on end game to keep them interested.

MMO's often make mistakes about what they think players want, take AOC for example. Why develop a whole new starting area, it was mid game and end game that needed sorting out. Mid and end game problems were accute in that MMO, but are true to a somewhat lesser extent for any MMO.