Originally posted by Quizzical

Often, it's because no one is organizing the group.  If you have five people in a group who don't communicate at all, then what would you expect to happen?  If you take it upon yourself to organize the group and explain what is going on and what people need to do, you'll find that you get much higher quality PUGs, even with exactly the same players as before.

Occasionally, you'll get people who are just idiots.  (Actually, you can often detect such people before the group actually starts the dungeon you're working on.)  But most players can be perfectly competent in a properly organized PUG.

Having a pre-made or guild group doesn't magically make players better.  If you have 25 players split into 5 guild groups, and then scramble the groups so that they're five groups of randomly chosen players with still decent group compositions, then the players are just as good as before--and the groups will be, too, if the players are willing to put in the same organizational work as they would for pre-made groups.

   I do agree with you if one of the people in the group is a leader, often times most are followers or no one wants to take the lead. If someone does and is good at it than a PUG can be very good

Originally posted by solarine

And you know what? If enough people show patience, PUGs actually begin to get better, because players have the time to *learn* dungeons and raids. To me, "many bad players" are not the cause of lack of patience; they're the direct result of it!

When I hear people saying "Sorry, I don't have the time to carry a bad / undergeared player", I'm honestly embarrassed for them. I'd even go so far as to say it's shameful. People knock WOW's community all the time, but I remember filling a spot for a really good guild on a raid run they did, and them positively showering me with loot, and having a good time doing it.

I honestly think things got way way worse. And I blame lack of patience with other players. 

The problem, and I've made this point time and time again, is that people are no longer playing MMOs to have a good time, they're being hyper-competitive.  Gotta get that super drop, gotta get to that next level as fast as you can, anyone who can't keep up with you is just slowing you down and you don't need them.  That's one of the reasons I don't play in groups anymore, I don't want to run, run, run, hurry, hurry, hurry.  I want to be slow and methodical and when I couldn't find anyone who wanted to play that way, I stopped playing with everyone.

It's like they did things over on Anarchy Online, back in the day.  People would pull 10 missions out of a terminal, all in the same general vicinity and they would RUN through the missions, killing everything, then jumping back outside to the next one.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  These people were doing 10 missions an hour easy, just for the XP.  I'm sorry, I find absolutely no fun in that, but it goes for both PUGs and guild groups as well.  Nobody has any patience in an MMO anymore.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Not sure what level disparity has to do with it (in terms of pvp at least).

Ah, you're talking about PVP and I'm talking about PVE.  No wonder we're talking past each other.

In terms of PvP, my opinion is this.

In all games that I've played post-WoW, wPvP has been replaced with manufactured e-sport PvP with no purpose. Except these e-sport instances have objectives (capping nodes and flags). Half of the little, selfish bastards that que up, ignore the objective (if they are even aware of them at all) and "pee vee pee" mid-field with their rogues-like characters and huge (in thier own minds) egos. Most of the time costing the match for everyone else.

Private Deathmatch jerks, squeal like little pigs in wPVP though.

It's not "low", it's random. Everyone has a PuG story where they absolutely kicked ass, and many more they don't remember where the group was OK.

I've been in PuGs where one member ragequit because we all sucked (we did), and then the 4 of us remaining cut though the dungeon like it was butter. No idea what changed, except we all decided that the rest of us weren't quitters (or something).

Pugs... oh my... how they want me to slam my head in to a desk. I don't expect much at all, I really don't, thats what makes it so bad. On Rift, if someone can pull 600 dps (which btw, is extremely easy to hit, even just fresh hitting 50) I'm happy, yet I see people who pull 200-400 dps and over-all just doing funky stuff or dieing a lot. I just really don't get it. I don't expect things to be good and everyone to be good (which you would be seeing 1k dps being as low as it goes for even the lowest geared individual). Its just people seem to be so bad and if things at all are designed around all the players being 'on ball'... things shoot down hill so fast. 

Its something I just don't get. I just can't see people being as stupid as I see in pugs. Maybe its my false sense that everyone has basic common sense or a brain, but I just don't see it. It frusterates me because I feel deep down they are more then capable, they just don't try.

Having a 'closing gap' of sorts to try and ease people in to more difficult content I honestly don't think would work. Some people might just be to far out of reach. Not to mention, they could end up just getting carried through and be a weight on other people's backs they need to pull through themselves. One thing that did use to help for raiding aspect was raid progression, which sadly seemed to be neglected as of lately. I don't know why, It really spices things up and gives us a reason to play the game through and work to achieve something, all the while helping to fine tune our skill. Then again... I do know a lot of players today are seeking instant gratification, which is a terrible thing for both game and the player.

I think a lot of newer games aren't demanding enough of their players to force improvement.

Some people never improve because they can reach the end of the game doing menial and simple stuff and are suddenly the burden of those who put some more time into planning than grinding.

Communication.

In premade there is less need for it because it has already been said.

In a pug people rarely talk.  Communication is key in all groups.  I also think people are some what overly sensative and that makes gamers overly worried aboiut waying the wrong thing or being viewed as a DB.  Few people want to argue in a game so it is easier to just drop group if it does not go well. 

I have a 9 year old nephew who plays team-based pvp all the time.

Yes, he is NINE YEARS OLD.  He always ask me to team up with him and ask me to do what he always does; fool around the map doing random things.  He doesn't care about the outcome of the game.  He runs in with the rest of the group just because he feels like it.  He doesn't care about the rules of the game.  He just want to play the game the way he wants to.  There was a time when we were playing BlackOps and he got himself a hold of a camera.   He spent the whole match in front of the camera like he's making a video commentary just talking about all sorts of stuff.   I spent the whole match doing /facepalms.

Now imagine how many other nine year olds, or older people who do things the way he does, are there playing MMOs.   Most of them have the patience of... well, nine-year olds.  I druid-bear-tank a heroic in WotLK Icecrown Citadel 5man once just backpedalling and Swiping the whole instance and told myself, "this is a cakewalk for my nephew."   I did the same heroic and asked my nephew to get on the controls.   All he did was explore the map and run around aggroing a good chunk of the instance leaving the other members of the team to die.  He did use the chat to say "Hi! Where are you from?"

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

But taking that aside, why do we so often see PUG groups where even the most common sense basics are such a freak occurrence that they are enough to make you gasp in amazement?

 

So what exactly is going on? Why do we see people randomly wandering off? Why do we see people never using team synergy skills? Surely not everyone is specced solo dps? Just what is going on?

Good post.  The answer is fairly simple, though.

The reason most PUGs are bad, is for a few reasons:

1) Whenever you are PUGing, you are engaging in a crapshoot. You are pooling the game population from the lowest common denominator. You aren't generally going to find top tier players in a PUG, because typically top tier players have their own guilds, or people they play with regularly and so they aren't part of that population most of the time.

2) When you are PUGing, someone needs to step up and be a leader. 9/10 people who PUG, are PUGing because they want to jump into difficult content quickly, without much hastle. This means that 9/10 times, the person who needs to step up and be a leader is typically YOU. I've found that by taking that responsibility into my own hands, I have much better results in my PUGs. When I get into bad PUGs, it's nearly always when I'm taking a backseat & just joining someone else's group, who turns out to not have a clue as to what they are doing.

By taking the responsibility into your own hands, you can ensure that people aren't idiots before engaging in a dungeon. If they can't answer simple questions like what their setup is, if they have certain utilities that might help the group, if they've done the dungeon before, etc. then they are probably not worth the effort. Generally I start out groups with the preface that people should take the first run slow, that I'll explain the fights ahead of time, and that people should help each other revive as quickly as possible; with the hint that if this run goes well, there is the potential to do multiple runs. Works pretty well most of the time.

It does suck that more people don't utilize basic common sense, such as reviving downed allies while they are still downed (as opposed to defeated), staying w/ the group, and paying attention to their surroundings; but the only way to guaruntee you have decent players is to make sure ahead of time yourself.

As the saying goes, if you want something done right, do it yourself.

Originally posted by Lissyl

I think most of it is actually because each of them is convinced they are playing 'right' and everyone else is a PuG moron.  It's a self-fulfilling prophecy created by each person knowing they are the good player and finding amusement in the 'antics' of the lessers, creating what is in reality 5 individuals each trying to make the others look bad.

That's probably true.

I also think most players who really want to succeed join an organized guild.  Leaving the PUG's with players who either new to the game, loners or got booted from thier guild.

Why does it matter? You can just quit if you don't like the group.

I found automatic PUG is very useful. I belong to a pretty big guild, but still, you can't put a group together any time you want.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Why does it matter? You can just quit if you don't like the group.

I found automatic PUG is very useful. I belong to a pretty big guild, but still, you can't put a group together any time you want.

No one suggested that they didn't server a useful purpose, the debate (which seems to have been and gone) was about why they are frequently so very, very bad.

Whether they actually matter or not, well that's down to the indivual player. They don't really matter to me as I am seldom in them, but the quality of them did intrigue me.

So far people have given plenty of viable and more than likely accurate reasons as to the randomness going on in them.

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Disclaimer: The OP (to wit me) just got involved in a bad (is there any other kind) pug and is bitter and ranting about the whole experience (which was probably his fault anyway).

There you go, problem solved.  Do you yell at them for being such total nubs?

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Disclaimer: The OP (to wit me) just got involved in a bad (is there any other kind) pug and is bitter and ranting about the whole experience (which was probably his fault anyway).

There you go, problem solved.  Do you yell at them for being such total nubs?

Perhaps I should have just proclaimed outright that it couldn't possibly ever have been my fault as opposed to trying to inject a modicum of humour and humility into the post.... and no, I don't yell at "them".

A thread like this reminds me of when I play CS:GO casual mode (and often times when I play "competitive" mode). In casual mode I go in mostly to practice only using one single weapon that I'm weak at since there will be lots of enemies using good weapons against me. I also tend to play casual with no sound (which means I can't hear the footsteps) and I don't bother sneaking around to mask my own footsteps.

Very few people take the casual games the least bit serious but occasionally you get this guy in there who thinks it is the most serious thing in the world and what on earth is everyone doing. He ends up blowing up at somepoint and everyone just laughs.

At the end of the day it is a game, people play to have fun. Often times they don't care if they win or lose or whatever else. If you want to avoid this the only way is to join a guild who takes their game seriously and likes to group a lot. You should never expect anything out of a PUG ever, ever, ever.

Even in the competitive mode on CS:GO you will often get teamed up with people who don't know the game, the map, or who just can't aim. They end up 1 and 20 by the end of the game. The ridiculous people are those who get mad at the person or who vote to kick them out. It is a random group of people matched together, there are going to be people who flat out suck, but everyone should always understand that.

I belive it is 2 things that effects pugs one and probly the most is the payment mode of the game .

Anything that isnt sub based get a casual group of players that have no want or intention of learning how to play there class well. EQ used to be one of the hardist games out there which you had to group and if you wernt good at your class you were known and not given a group.But since it went to f2p the quality of pugs has got to a state that in that game i will only party with guys i know.

The secound reason i belive is the game it self take old WoW i found the pugs terrible everybody wanted to zerg and no thought for the role they played . Now i am  not saying WoW is bad i played it for over 3 years but the pugs were very bad and that was because of the type of game it is (i maxed most class in that game solo and thats how the game was designed).

Nearly if not all mmos since WoW came out has that same easy mode solo zerg feel to it so why would they want to learn how to play the classes when there is no need to.

Not true,it is imo the culture and type of gamers.

For example ,before my friends made it into FFXI,i was grouping 90% of the time with Japan players.I was a noob,but they had TONS of patience with me [very respectful people]and their groups were just phenomenal.After i played with JPN players it made the entire game seem a lot easier to me.

I have had groups totally planned that were complete failures and turned me right off.It is becuase that group leader might have a totally different perspective on how to group and play the game,than i do,so no matter how organized he is,it can still end up a nightmare for me.

One of my biggest things abotu grouping,is i like a relaxed atmosphere,i don't like to be pushed or rushed just becuase yo uhave some XP/hr number you want to achieve.My ONLY purpose to playing is to have fun and no PUG be it oprganized or not can change my outlook on gaming.