I don't think we have this problem at all.

I spend half my internet time on a specific console gaming forum as well as here and the same hype and disappointment is apparent in other genres too, SOCOM series on the playstation would be a fine example.

The amount of original Counter Strike players that think CS: Source and Global Offensive are utter trash is through the roof, but if you go in now you'd probably play the most recent one and enjoy it too. There are thousands of people that prefer the original Team Fortress over the current TF2.

I cut my teeth online playing SOCOM 1 and 2 and have been a part of that community since around 2003, I have followed every game and watch the series get worse and worse, they even tried to make it more like call of duty. This is the same trend we see in MMO's too, the publisher is never happy, they want more, they push developers in certain directions to try and maximise profit.

I know now that I will never like any FPS or TPS as much as I did SOCOM 1 and 2, I know I won't like any Call Of  Duty game as much as I liked COD4, I won't like any MMO as much as I liked Matrix Online and SWG.

Once people come to terms with the fact that there old game won't be created they can move on and enjoy other things. This happens all over the place not just in the mmorpg community.

The genre has gone backward to cater to idiots for increased profits. We do not like this.

/thread

 

Originally posted by Macecard

So I ask you, why do mmo gamers seem to think that every triple A mmo to be released should be the next pinnacle of the genre and should become their new favourite game of all time?

It's not possible to answer that question without a great deal of well-deserved insult.

Honesty = ban.  Someone should grab and shake them, the Drill-Sergeant Reality Check.  But forum rules prohibit it.

I beg to differ that MMORPG's haven't progressed or evolved compared to what they were 10-13 years ago. If you look at it purely objectively and make a list of the features and mechanics that have been introduced or upgraded in the MMORPG field, and then put that list next to a list of features and mechanics that have been changed or added in the shooter genre, then you'd see that the shooter genre or some other genres have seen less change or evolution in the past 10 years than the MMO genre.

I think it's more the case that a number of MMO gamers don't like the direction into which the mainstream of the genre has evolved to, nor do they care for the majority of feature changes and additions that came with it.

In the '90s you had something like god games like Populous and Dungeon Keeper, and adventure games like Secret of Monkey Island and King's Quest series and such. If I was one that hugely loved those types of games (which I did), I could say that for example gaming has deteriorated since then, when those genres faded away and other changes happened. In a way, I'd have been right if those specific games were the types I most enjoyed and loved. However, in other ways, in other areas, gaming grew and evolved, and offered great gaming. But maybe not to people if they only really loved those god games or that type of adventure games. Same with the MMO genre: the genre evolved, changed, offered other paths of great gaming - but probably not to those who only really love sandbox type of games or a very specific type of MMO gaming.

I think it's mostly a case of expectations. There's also a lot of heated bickering and emotions when it comes to singleplayer games, just check the whole ME3 ending debate, or the metacritic figures of Diablo 3 or the last 2 CoD/MW games (even if those sold like 10 million).

But overall the expectations might be less than people do of an MMORPG. In contrast to singleplayer games, a number of MMO gamers expect and want 1 single MMO to be able to be their virtual world, their main hobby, maybe even their alternate or replacement life and lifestyle for many years and thousands upon thousands and thousands of hours to come. That's a large wish to fulfill in any case, regardless.

For such a large expectation and requirement that some MMO gamers want an MMO to fulfill in their life, disappointment will be equally magnanimous.

I'm not sure it's fair to say that MMO players regard each new release as the new saviour of the genre. You only need to read these forums to see that. Even before games release you can see the love/hate posts starting. We're seeing it right now with GW2, just as we did with TOR, TSW, Rift, and the list goes on.

Once these games release we see even more of the fueding between fans and those that are not.

I personally wasn't at all thrilled by TSW leading up to it's release. I tried the open beta and wasn't impressed so I never bought it. I don't trash it at every opportunity, but I have posted my feelings that Funcom could have done a better job on the character models and animations.

I was excited when I first heard about TOR but as more information came out I was less and less interested in the game. GW2 kept my interest through it's development and I'm quite happy with the way it turned out. Is it perfect? No, but it's still a good game and I'm enjoying myself playing it.

I used to be a huge WoW fan but as the game has devolved with each expansion I've let that one go too, didn't even bother to pick up MoP.

So, no, I don't think everyone has unrealistic expectations. I do think that MMO's are expected to be a cut above FPS and SP-RPG's if only because they need to create a world that engages so many people at the same time, and the fact that most of the AAA's will still be looking for a sub fee. That £10 or $15 a month means you expect your money's worth from your current MMO, so it better be damned good.

Because MMOs are more expensive and take a much larger time commitment, and in the Golden Age (97-04) we were exposed to amazing fantastic innovative games, and so we're still expecting them.

I assume you're talking about modern 'MMO gamers'. In that case it is a difficult question. These people don't actually like traditional Western MMORPGs. It's unclear what they want, whether or not know they know what they want, and whether what they want has any intellectual basis at all.

 

EDIT: Also, you're an idiot.

Because no matter what you do, people will love it, people will hate it.

Make a MMORPG with lots of solo content? Some hate it, some love it.

Make it with a strong death penalty? Some hate it, some love it.

Allow FFA PvP? Some hate it, some love it.

Go for science fiction or fantasy?

Sandbox or themepark?

First person or third person?

Active combat or pushing buttons on a computer?

And basically every other issue.

You can never please everyone, if a MMORPG consists of even 50 questions that players could vote on, no player would have every 50 questions the same, or at least, no sizable amount. They'd all be divided fairly randomly.

Thus, you cannot create a perfect game, you can either cater to the masses, or niches.

You might absolutely love most features of a game, but hate a few.

You can love the graphics of a game, but hate its combat style, or you might love the combat, but hate the economic system of the game, or love/hate the genre, but love/hate the characters, etc...

So the perfect game would be different for everyone. Every game will have features you agree upon, and features you dislike.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Let me ask you, have you played a modern day FPS that you felt was heads and shoulders above one that was first release 10 years ago?  I'm going to guess the answer might be yes and if so, ask yourself why you thought so. Probably because the new title was heads and shoulders an improvement in the genre and really amazed you.

MMO's didn't go the same way for me.  I cut my teeth on Lineage 1/2, DAOC and Shadowbane.  At their core they were all PVP centric castle siegers, with heavy PVE and virtual world elements thrown in.

They just don't make them like this anymore.  They haven't for years.  Closest I've found since 2006 is EVE, (another 8+year old title) and as such it holds the title for longest played MMORPG, closing in on 4 years played soon.

Most modern day MMO's have really evolved away from the core principals and mechancis that I enjoyed, have stripped away most forms of interdependency, socialization mechanics, downtime and even reasonable travel times.

It's the era of fast travel, non-stop killing, solo play and dungeon finders, and I for one, am not happy. (and believe the genre can deliver better)

Apparently, the only thing unrealistic about my expectations is thinking there's enough of us who would also enjoy a title that revisted some of the mechanics of the past, or provided a deeper and more challenging gaming experience than the current crop of theme park MMO's.

We have the technology...... just not the will or imagination to use it.

 

 

I think all genres are the same. Due to the nature of these forums the focus is just on MMORPGs.

 

If you look at XFire, all of the top played FPS games are 6 or more years old (except Borderlands 2 which just released but that will fade off fast). It isn't like the genre is coming up with new ways to do things all of the time. The genre as a whole isn't much different from its beginnings. Hell CS 1.6 is still high up on the daily played list, so is CS:S.

 

The only changes over the years have been to add vehicles and to add special abilities you can call in.

 

No genre in gaming changes fast. People on a site called MMORPG.com just focus on the MMO industry more. RTS/FPS/RPG/Racing/Sports games have all evolved very slowly. I think people are more content with RTS/FPS/Racing/Sports games evolving slowly because it is a very focused type of game and they want it for what it is. MMOs try to be wider games, trying to capture the interests of several different types of gamers. Because of that I think there are always a couple groups who feel a new MMO let them down.

 

I don't ever pick up a new FPS and go "Wait, I just aim and shoot at people trying to kill them? Why have they not added any innovation????". But when I pick up an MMO it is "Ok I just paid $60 for what I can do in all of those existing games that no longer have a box price and because this game is new there is far less content. Well that sucks."

To the OP:

I'll turn this around and go the other way and ask this: why do some people think MMOs and MMO companies are "something different" and deserving a special exception to normally accepted corporate business practices and behavior?

Other products, not MMOs, are delivered in functional, working shape, as expected. You pay for the product, and you the get product you paid for. When there is a problem, you call the company and it gets sorted out.

Now with MMO companies, games launch without the features that were advertised as having, or the features don't work. There are massive exploits and serious bugs in many games at launch, that made it through QA testing. Getting customer service in regards to MMOs, especially at/near launch is very difficult, if possible at all. Unsatisfied customers are shouted down on forums and often publicly criticized by the companies themselves.

How is any of that acceptable in the MMO space, it certainly isn't outside it.

So, while I grant that some customers have unreasonable expectations, that is true for any product.

What is not reasonable is treating MMOs and MMO companies as some special thing: they are companies like any other to make money and when they don't they deseve to be treated the same as any other company that does not deliever.

 

If these companies"can't" make a good MMO that meets customer demand, or don't like how their customers respond to the products they put out, they should get into a different business.

 

Originally posted by Macecard

No we don't! I hear you cry after reading the title of my thread. But yes we do (I include myself in this).

I am going to explain how I came to this conclusion. But before I do I'd like to say; I am mostly likely not the first person to notice this trend and I am sure my opinion of whats happening doesnt extend to 100% of the mmo gaming community. That said I believe that the way in which mmo gamers approach mmos is the core reason for the excessive hype and disappointment cycle and the ongoing war on trolls/fanbois (they are the same thing viewed from different sides of a fence).

So why do mmo gamers have unrealistic expectations? well thats because, from what I gather from reading articles and threads here and on other websites, its clear to me that we as mmo gamers expect FAR more from mmos than games of other genres.

For example;

I personally like MMO's, RPGs, FPSs. These are my top 3 genres in the gaming industry. Now lets look at how I (and I believe most gamers) approach these genres. Ill start with the FPSs are this easily shows my point; I enjoy CoD (comment on this if you must trolls but its beyond my point here) and I also quite like Halo, however I do not like medal of honour or battlefield. My point here is that I never thought id like medal of honour or battlefield. I have always known I do not like the way the 'twitch' feels in medal of honour. I did not get swept up in the hype for either game and though I did read the odd article I never had any expectation of buying or liking either game. The same can be said for rpgs, I like dragon quest and I enjoyed the early FF's, although the new ones seems to be just terrible (in my opinion). When ff13 came out I was not going to buy it (I did in the end due to lack of games to play when bored) and I did not get super excited about its release. In both these cases (fps and rpgs) I never get the feeling of being super disappointed with the new games in the genre.  I didnt feel wronged by the companies who made them for creating  games in the genres I love and failing to please me.

So I ask you, why do mmo gamers seem to think that every triple A mmo to be released should be the next pinnacle of the genre and should become their new favourite game of all time? Why can't we accept (like we do in other genres) that not every game made in this genre is going to please us and that the subtle differences in each game aren't there to pisses us off or create a game that isn't as good as the last one but are there as the evolution of the genre. 

I do not expect another rpg to surpass the fun and enjoyment I had playing FF7 and 8. but mmo gamers seem to think that with each new mmo release they are going to recieve a bigger and better game in every way from the last. This is unrealistic when compared to how the other genres in gaming have changed and evolved over time. There is no genre out there where a fan can say they have played and enjoyed every title created for it.

Do you agree? or am i talking nonsense?

Probably because you expect to play MMO for years.  While a console or other game type is finite and will end.  The more EPIC you believe or feel a game is, the more you will want to explore and experience the content.

MMO gamers, in general, don't have unrealistic expectations.  Some subsets, such as the crowd here, are more invested and entrenched in MMOs than the majority are. As such, they notice and often focus on the details that the average gamer wouldn't notice at all, let alone care about even if they did. Their view of the game is different, so the expectations are different, often forgetting that their perspective is skewed and greatly different from the majority. this is true of any hobbyist or enthusiast group, and not just limited to MMO fans.

The most classic example is when an MMO violates individual definitions of what an MMO is or forever should be. It becomes a threadnought of epic proportions.  The reality is that most MMO gamers don't really care about these things. The number of instances, the square footage of the game world, that someone can get to cap in only x weeks... immaterial to the majority but they are points of concern for the more invested players and that group sets their expectations accordingly.

 

Honeslty i could care less about having a Bigger and Brighter game. What bothers me is the same game getting released over and over. MMORPG's feel like Ice Cream we have over 100 flavors of WoW. and those who try to make something new get insulted, Attacked, an called failures by the same people who are asking for something new. the community needs to make up its mind. if it actually wanted something new it would play the games with innovations, instead they find the first free game they can play and pile into it. They swap it out each month too.

While an RC plane hobbyist might know how an RC plane operates and perhaps can build one, a MMORPG enthusiast likely knows jackshit about software engineering. This is why it is easy to have expectations beyond feasibility or even reality.

Some expectations, while feasible, come from a small niche so they may not be worth fulfilling.

Originally posted by Quirhid

While an RC plane hobbyist might know how an RC plane operates and perhaps can build one, a MMORPG enthusiast likely knows jackshit about software engineering. This is why it is easy to have expectations beyond feasibility or even reality.

Some expectations, while feasible, come from a small niche so they may not be worth fulfilling.

 This ,  Also people don't like the parameters determined by the Dev and would rather play a game set in their parameters of what the game should be in their minds.  The immature mind, at work.

I think it got alot to do with how RPG started out.  When mmorpg first made their mark, we where vary few to choose from.  Because of this, many folks stayed with one for many years, hence they feel a mmorpg should provide many years of joy.  Tow factors have entered since then that cripple this idea.  First, now we have hundred of mmo's to choose from (vs. simply two or three) and second, all the games have the same basic layout as they have since mmo's started so people are tired of the rince/repeat offerings.

Sure Dev's have added features, changed things up, better graphics and the like; however, not many have combined what many players would deem as the best features into one game.  ANd, even if they had, most likely - people would still be bored if it right out of the box because it stall at is core, the same layout (quest, kill, get, make, etc).

People are looking for the new wow factor from years ago and it simply hasn't happened yet.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

MMO gamers, in general, don't have unrealistic expectations.  Some subsets, such as the crowd here, are more invested and entrenched in MMOs than the majority are.

I'd like to believe that, but when you look at vloggers like Jessie Cox, it becomes very hard to believe. I've seen blogs, podcasts, and vids of people talking about 'what MMOs should be', and whether they admit it or not, it always ends up describing a game that not only doesn't exist, but never actually existed.

I don't think even classic games like UO would live up to the expectations of today's gamers. There's just too many conflicting expectations that are all based off of idealized moments.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Loktofeit

MMO gamers, in general, don't have unrealistic expectations.  Some subsets, such as the crowd here, are more invested and entrenched in MMOs than the majority are.

I'd like to believe that, but when you look at vloggers like Jessie Cox, it becomes very hard to believe. I've seen blogs, podcasts, and vids of people talking about 'what MMOs should be', and whether they admit it or not, it always ends up describing a game that not only doesn't exist, but never actually existed.

I don't think even classic games like UO would live up to the expectations of today's gamers. There's just too many conflicting expectations that are all based off of idealized moments.

Those people are, again, part of the heavily invested subset. Jessie Cox (OMFGcata) is the not the average gamer. The average MMO gamer just plays the game; they don't livestream their gameplay and make hour-long videos of beta. In most cases, they won't even play a beta.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Loktofeit

MMO gamers, in general, don't have unrealistic expectations.  Some subsets, such as the crowd here, are more invested and entrenched in MMOs than the majority are.

I'd like to believe that, but when you look at vloggers like Jessie Cox, it becomes very hard to believe. I've seen blogs, podcasts, and vids of people talking about 'what MMOs should be', and whether they admit it or not, it always ends up describing a game that not only doesn't exist, but never actually existed.

I don't think even classic games like UO would live up to the expectations of today's gamers. There's just too many conflicting expectations that are all based off of idealized moments.

Those people are, again, part of the heavily invested subset. Jessie Cox (OMFGcata) is the not the average gamer. The average MMO gamer just plays the game; they don't livestream their gameplay and make hour-long videos of beta. In most cases, they won't even play a beta.

Actually, pretty much the only reason I even listen to him is because he is very much an 'everyman'. He rarely ever has anything profound to say, and he's usually pretty bad at articulating why exactly he likes or dislikes a game, but his views mimic that of quite a large number of MMO gamers to varying degrees. He is very much of the WoW-fan majority, and I see many of the same arguments he uses mimicked by that subset of fans.

And while it's true the average gamer isn't livestreaming, it doesn't mean their voices don't get projected through livestreamers. Many of these people are popular because their fans are those very same gamers, and they support their views. Furthermore many of the followers do submit questions or comments, and some of those end up getting brought up by the leavestreamer.

To give a reason example, look at MoP. Many did actually play the beta (or tried to). Many do criticise the expansion for the same very reasons they left WoW to begin with. However, they are mostly still playing MoP, grinding to 90, and preparing for raiding inspite all of that. You also see a lot of the same demands of games having 'real, significant, & permanent change' but anytime any of them tries to get down to the details, they can't.

Originally posted by Randayn

The last issue would have to be that developers spend too much time trying to make the next-gen in graphics and forget they had a game to make.  MMORPG's need open worlds, large, vast continents to explore and more freedom than MMORPG's grant today.  Although I do like decent graphics, they do not have to be state of the art....in history, MMORPG's (and even RPG's) have always been a few steps behind in graphics compared to other games because they focus more on content than how pretty the girl toon looks.

 

Just a few complaints...I do have more, but that's enough for now

- Vanguard: Saga of Heroes -