@Quirhid

I think the problem here is that some of the things YOU see as "getting in the way of gameplay experience" others see as an "enjoyable part of the game-play experience".

For example, in skiing is the chairlift ride an incovenience that is "getting in the way" of your ski experience or is it an "important part" of the ski experience that affords you the opportunity to relax, take in the scenery, chat/socialize with others, etc?

The answer is going to depend on what the individual actualy enjoys and expects to get out of the "ski experience". If it's all about going down the slopes for one person...then the chairlift is a pain...if other things are an important part of that experience for another, then taking away the chairlift REMOVES a large part of the fun for that individual.

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by TangentPoint

Because, OP, what you're talking about is the exception, not the rule. I'm a very social person in MMOs as well - asking questions, cracking jokes, commenting on their names, asking if people want to group up (if we're both in the same area, etc) complimenting people on gear they've acquired, etc. I can say with absolute certainty that for every person who does respond to me, there are at least 10 who don't. They just ignore you.

You give one specific example of someone being social and you two ending up becoming acquaintances in-game. How many times does that not happen though? Not just in GW2, but in any newer MMO of the the last, say, 3 or 4 years? I'm gonna not really go out on a limb and say that, unless you have a knack for picking out the social folks in a crowd, anti-social behavior has been more common.

The community itself reinforces this fact. What do you see people say, time and again, when someone says "where's the community?" or "why don't people talk"? They say "Join a social guild". Right? And that isn't even "the right answer" many times because, unless they need help with something, many people won't even talk to their guildmates.

Final Fantasy XI, Lineage 2, Asheron's Call 2, Anarchy Online (old-school).. even Shadowbane... In all those MMOs, I found the situation to be the inverse of how it is now. People not talking and being social was the exception. People being helpful was the norm. I would be out leveling in XI, on a new job or whatever, and people would run by, throw a full round of buffs on me, cheer me on and run off. Sometimes they'd even start up conversation with me.. "Are you new?", etc. They'd offer help, advice, etc. I had a list a mile long of friends in those games... every one of them was sparked by us being in a group or just from random conversation. XP parties were a stream of pleasant and fun conversation and banter - part of what made long-term xp parties so much fun. The un-social ones were the odd-balls.

Thanks, in part, to the way MMOs are designed now - where you can be a lone wolf and get by just fine - there simply is very little need to talk to others. In a number of "modern" MMOs I've played, most people don't talk because they're caught up in their own little world, doing their own thing, and they have no interest in talking to anyone else. I've known of people to disable all chat channels except for system messages and PMs in the event a GM was trying to get their attention because they didn't want to see all the chatter. 

I agree 100% with the idea that MMO gamers are largely anti-social these days. I've seen and experienced it far too many times myself to think or be convinced otherwise at this point. The odd person being super social and friendly just isn't much of a reason to think it's any different in GW2.

You and me seem to think about things differently. In real life I don't expect every person I meet, on the street, to be super friendly and helpful to me. No quite the opposite. But occasionally you'll come across someone that peeks your interest or maybe are introduced to others. I treat MMORPGs that same, so maybe that's why I can think fondly about those few individuals that I come across, rather than you who has fond memories of those you've been somewhat forced to initially rely on.

If I ask for directions for where to find this or that street, I expect them to be super friendly and helpful. I haven't been dissappointed so far, in real life that is.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

@Quirhid

I think the problem here is that some of the things YOU see as "getting in the way of gameplay experience" others see as an "enjoyable part of the game-play experience".

For example, in skiing is the chairlift ride an incovenience that is "getting in the way" of your ski experience or is it an "important part" of the ski experience that affords you the opportunity to relax, take in the scenery, chat/socialize with others, etc?

The answer is going to depend on what the individual actualy enjoys and expects to get out of the "ski experience". If it's all about going down the slopes for one person...then the chairlift is a pain...if other things are an important part of that experience for another, then taking away the chairlift REMOVES a large part of the fun for that individual.

I guess what all these arguments ultimately boil down to is, what is your purpose in playing, and is said game, and your particular style meeting that purpose. 

Using your skiing analogy fo me, at the beginning of the day the purpose is to ski, the chairlift is an inconvenience.  By the end of the day the purpose is still to ski but I need longer breaks, the chairlift is usefull at that point :)

I think MMO's should be the same way.  Things should be in the game that COULD enhance gameplay, depending on your purpose, but can be taken advantage of by those seeking them. 

I don't think there should be a reason for 5-10 minutes between fights if people don't want them.  But the developers could put in something that would encourage discussion between players that would be usefull in the next fight...

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Using your skiing analogy fo me, at the beginning of the day the purpose is to ski, the chairlift is an inconvenience.  By the end of the day the purpose is still to ski but I need longer breaks, the chairlift is usefull at that point :)

I think MMO's should be the same way.  Things should be in the game that COULD enhance gameplay, depending on your purpose, but can be taken advantage of by those seeking them. 

I don't think there should be a reason for 5-10 minutes between fights if people don't want them.  But the developers could put in something that would encourage discussion between players that would be usefull in the next fight...

Obviously different people have different purpose.

My purpose is to have fun combat in a co-op mode, and progression. Anything else is just dead-time, non-fun, and prefered to be optional.

And before you say it, MMOs are not the ONLY games with that kind of features .. and i play them all. Quite a few MMOs have enough variety of combat mechanics though, just because of the shear number of classes.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

@Beatnik59,

I'm not sure what you are getting at? I'm not trying to say that you will be bonded to the people you played a game with 40 years after you left the game anymore then you are neccesarly bonded to people you played high-school football with. Neither have really been the case with me.  I'm saying that while you are there, involved in the activity it tends to facilitate bonds significantly more then activities which involve very little interaction with. I'm going to TEND to be more socialy interactive with a person I need to work with on a team in order for our team to be successfull and see every Sunday then a person I happen to randomly pass in a park once inawhile while jogging.

It's just human nature...we're hard wired that way. It's why organizations do actualy spend alot of time, effort and money on "team building" excersizes. On the surface they may sound like b.s. but statisticaly they yield real measurable results. It doesn't neccesarly mean that you'll end up liking someone that's a real jerk....but MOST people tend to be less of a jerk and try to moderate thier behavior and make compromises if they NEED to work with someone in order to be successfull....they are also more likely to sympathize with that person if they feel like they've shared experiences in common. You can try to argue against it...but you are essentialy arguing against a couple million years of evolution as "herd animals" effect on human instincts and emotions.

 

 

The fact that we are natually social means that we don't need "team building exercises" or "team sports" to be social.  We only need an environment that brings us together.

But team sports and team building exercises are about something different: they are about breaking down the individual, getting the individuals to give up their personalities, to think of themselves and the others as pieces of something greater: a machine.

In team sports, you don't think of your teammates in terms of personalities.  You think of them in terms of roles, ie, "this is the center, this is the quarter back," and so on.  And this depersonalization is necessary, because the task at hand is too important to get sentimental about the people next to you.

See, creating "bonds" is a double-edged sword in "teams."  Because if the interpersonal bonds between the members become too strong, the whole machine breaks down when someone leaves or dies.

But good teams, good armies, and good workplaces aren't like that.  They are designed in such a way whereby if someone leaves, you can insert another person in there that does the same role and not miss a beat.

Players that complain are anti-social in the sense that they want to play a good game rather a status quo time waster. I can guarantee you that in reality people that want to play good games are less social than people content to play status quo time wasters.

The fact is, interdependency is an accepted quality of a good MMORPG. Perhaps because it is blatantly unrealistic not to have it, perhaps because it is simply good game design.

Anti-social behavior is a result of the game, not the players.

I haven't played GW2 but if you answer yes on any of these questions the fault is the game.

-can you solo on every class?

-are groups made for you?

-are you free to die without punishment?

-is the game fast paced

-are buffs short lasting?

Socialising in MMO happens when people need each other, in games where people don't need each other or are grouped together automatically, they stop talking, there is no reason to talk and if the game is too fast paced you can't talk.

No they are not.

If someone is truly anti-social they will either be a griefing ganker type, a no-nonsense sociopathic achievement-hunter, raider, etc type, or they won't even play MMORPGs to begin with.

The truly anti-social people nobody knows about, because they don't play multiplayer games.

I knew an engineer who was actually anti-social. People would go to sit next to him at lunch in the work cafeteria, and he'd violently grab his tray, and move away from them. He wouldn't talk to you unless he had to, and he would never smile.

Those are anti-social people, not anyone on this forum, and not most WoW players.

GW2's mechanics are antisocial. They do not encourage you to interact with other players.

You can still find the occasional social person and befriend them, but the game does not breed a culture of people socializing. It breeds a culture of people soloing who ignore chat and ignore group requests. It's just a product of the game design.

Originally posted by strangewizard

No they are not.

If someone is truly anti-social they will either be a griefing ganker type, a no-nonsense sociopathic achievement-hunter, raider, etc type, or they won't even play MMORPGs to begin with.

The truly anti-social people nobody knows about, because they don't play multiplayer games.

I knew an engineer who was actually anti-social. People would go to sit next to him at lunch in the work cafeteria, and he'd violently grab his tray, and move away from them. He wouldn't talk to you unless he had to, and he would never smile.

Those are anti-social people, not anyone on this forum, and not most WoW players.

Been playing games for a long long time and mmo's since the start of them.

   For the last 3 years i have seen a steady decline in player interactions from both the game and the gamer.

Why? who know's. But its a fact sad to say.

My question is Why play an mmo if your not going to be social? thats the whole point

After about 50-100 mmos I have played now me as a gamer is about ready to go back to solo games and drop mmos. At least in a solo game when you ask a question or chat with an npc they respond.

Since the shut down of SWG I have yet to find a game with a Active social game pop thats not a-holes/trolls/scammers

And as for wow They have to be some of the poorist of them all.

Originally posted by vonryan123

Originally posted by strangewizard

No they are not.

If someone is truly anti-social they will either be a griefing ganker type, a no-nonsense sociopathic achievement-hunter, raider, etc type, or they won't even play MMORPGs to begin with.

The truly anti-social people nobody knows about, because they don't play multiplayer games.

I knew an engineer who was actually anti-social. People would go to sit next to him at lunch in the work cafeteria, and he'd violently grab his tray, and move away from them. He wouldn't talk to you unless he had to, and he would never smile.

Those are anti-social people, not anyone on this forum, and not most WoW players.

Been playing games for a long long time and mmo's since the start of them.

   For the last 3 years i have seen a steady decline in player interactions from both the game and the gamer.

Why? who know's. But its a fact sad to say.

My question is Why play an mmo if your not going to be social? thats the whole point

After about 50-100 mmos I have played now me as a gamer is about ready to go back to solo games and drop mmos. At least in a solo game when you ask a question or chat with an npc they respond.

 

Since the shut down of SWG I have yet to find a game with a Active social game pop thats not a-holes/trolls/scammers

And as for wow They have to be some of the poorist of them all.

 

There's still great people in WoW if you look for them.

The key to finding people to be social is to be the initiator.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Anti-social behavior is a result of the game, not the players.

I haven't played GW2 but if you answer yes on any of these questions the fault is the game.

-can you solo on every class?

-are groups made for you?

-are you free to die without punishment?

-is the game fast paced

-are buffs short lasting?

Socialising in MMO happens when people need each other, in games where people don't need each other or are grouped together automatically, they stop talking, there is no reason to talk and if the game is too fast paced you can't talk.

No. You are wrong. If people CHOOSE to play in game that they don't need others, it is their own responsibilities.

And so what if people are not social? I don't play games to be social. I stick to games that a) can solo, b) have LFD, c) with light death penalty, and d) fast face. It is my choice.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Anti-social behavior is a result of the game, not the players.

I haven't played GW2 but if you answer yes on any of these questions the fault is the game.

-can you solo on every class?

-are groups made for you?

-are you free to die without punishment?

-is the game fast paced

-are buffs short lasting?

Socialising in MMO happens when people need each other, in games where people don't need each other or are grouped together automatically, they stop talking, there is no reason to talk and if the game is too fast paced you can't talk.

   Yea I have to agree, When  i played Shadowbane you had to group and be social or die, SWG did a nice job with the Cantinas although I felt the game was more a chat room than game, WOW and such are a solo experience, unless you are in a guild and even then many members do not talk

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Pretty much this ^

Some gamers just don't understand that you can't force people to talk to you. You can provide incentives, and GW2 does this quite a bit. I personally end up talking to random strangers everytime I log in, even if I'm only on for a few minutes.

A game doesn't become anti-social because you make no effort to talk to people / have no social skills. It becomes anti-social when there are no reasons to talk to people you aren't friends with. Luckily, GW2 doesn't fall into that category, and has quite a few reasons to talk to other people, and it happens often:

PvE: /map chat of people looking to team up, asking question about classes, bullshitting, and pinging dynamic events.

PvP: /team chat communicating objectives, shit talking, asking for help at certain points

WvW: /team or /map chat pinging where the action is, strategizing attacks, warning players of gank groups, asking for reinforcements, etc.

Dungeons: /party chat people communicating strategy, organizing build synergies between classes, & explaining boss fights.

This all happens, of course, in addition to random tells, guild talks, vent, etc. Furthermore there are still a lot of people who trade via mail, something you wouldn't really see in any other game, for fear of getting scammed.

A genre that has the first two words as "massively multiplayer" was never meant to be an anti-socials playground really. That is what single player games are for.

Its with themepark mmo's..aka.."Single Player MMO's" that we are getting players that really don't like MMORPG's for what they were conceived originally. Even if they join guilds, its nothing more than chat rooms. The game has no room for them to actually socialize and become friends.

The whole genre has just had a horrible mutation...its supposed to be THE most socializing genre of all genres out there.

Good luck to sandbox indy devs out there because they are the only ones who can cure the ****ing mutation.

Originally posted by Params7

A genre that has the first two words as "massively multiplayer" was never meant to be an anti-socials playground really. That is what single player games are for.

Unfortunately, from the company perspective, playing for the solo gamer is the way to go, in terms of raw $$$.

Clearly, Blizzard succeeded much more than any of the firstgen 'social' games that so many people here constantly pine for.  (The social ideal game that I pine for is even older than those firstgen MMOs).

So does a company choose to play for idealism, or for the bucks?  You don't even require a great deal of cynicism to correctly predict the corporate response.  Corporations, as normal, can be expected to alter the games in the direction of the most profit.

Sorry, idealists.

Incidentally: "its supposed to be THE most socializing genre of all genres out there".

That would be 'roleplaying games'.  Despite containg 'rpg' in the title, MMO's really haven't ever been that.