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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Human behavior and why force grouping doesn't work

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117 posts found
  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

10/03/12 3:13:25 AM#21
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Starpower

It's human behavior to want to choose when and where to be social and not have it crammed down your throat. Games should work much the same way.

Except in games if you want to simulate human interaction...

We're forced in our day to day lives to interact with people all the time. Sometimes this leads to social encounters. Some people need the incentive or the push. 

MMOs would work in the same way. They'd set up the potential for a social exchange and leave it to you to take it further.

Modern MMOs just make you 100% self sufficient, which means no socializing or social community ever develops. And without a community holding people to games, they peter out and die very quickly (see every WoW clone).

Games are first and foremost recreational. The word 'forced' rings badly with that.

 

Lets not forget that "we" the gamers has pushed the genre in the direction it is in and not the developers. They only follow where the money is.

 

Except that the money was never in WoW clones. They didn't understand what made WoW a success and they never figured it out.

As for "forced" its not a term used by anyone seriously. The only game I can think of where grouping was forced were very specific classes in EQ. In every other MMO the groundwork was there for people to socialize, but they didn't have to. Going solo was the harder road, as it is in real life, and how it should be in well designed online games, but it was always possible to solo.

I hate being "forced" to quest grind. That is something the game forces on you by making it nearly impossible to level without doing quests. Such as in LotRO.

Grouping is harder, and should have better rewards as incentive and, well, rewarding your effort. Modern games don't understand this.

  IAmMMO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/17/08
Posts: 1323

10/03/12 3:20:40 AM#22

It worked in the old days.The socially awkward and their poor social skills simply didn't break in to the genre making for some great communities as people where social not anti social.

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

10/03/12 3:36:04 AM#23
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Starpower

It's human behavior to want to choose when and where to be social and not have it crammed down your throat. Games should work much the same way.

Except in games if you want to simulate human interaction...

We're forced in our day to day lives to interact with people all the time. Sometimes this leads to social encounters. Some people need the incentive or the push. 

MMOs would work in the same way. They'd set up the potential for a social exchange and leave it to you to take it further.

Modern MMOs just make you 100% self sufficient, which means no socializing or social community ever develops. And without a community holding people to games, they peter out and die very quickly (see every WoW clone).

Games are first and foremost recreational. The word 'forced' rings badly with that.

 

Lets not forget that "we" the gamers has pushed the genre in the direction it is in and not the developers. They only follow where the money is.

 

Except that the money was never in WoW clones. They didn't understand what made WoW a success and they never figured it out.

Of course they have. They simply can't reproduce it for a variety of reasons. Again social interaction is not even on the radar when it comes to that. All these improvements like maps, and removal of  dependencies like buffs are some of those things people applaud but also hurt social interaction. Games are not failing because they implement those things. That's old school vet fantasies of 'I know better' and 'I told you so' that doesn't ring with reality. If people in general really played for the social aspect then the genre would have evolved in that direction

  Arakazi

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/09
Posts: 864

10/03/12 3:57:56 AM#24
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
 

Totally disagree. And I think you'll find that the bulk of psychological and anthropological literatue does as well.

People talk to random strangers all the time, in line at the bank, the grocery store, gas stations...

We are social creatures, not just because it was important to survive but for a lot of emotional reasons.  Removing contact whether it is social, physical... can actually contribute cause a great deal of psychological conditions not the least of which is depression. 

However you are right that forced grouping does not work.  People want to socialize with others because they like to be social.

What the developers of these games have to answer is, "Why are people playing these games?"  I doubt the answer is to be social for the majority of people.  They will socialize in their RL.

They play games for entertainment.

MMO's give them opportunities to be social, if they choose to, that is not availble in spg.  People gravitate to MMO's because there is more choice, more opportunity for pretty well everything over spg.

You know, this post totally headshots my thread. :(

*Shake fists*

I'd love to know where you live since in my area, people don't talk much. At least not without an 'excuse' to do so.

Other than 'Hi / good evening' I rarely see random strangers talk. Maybe its just me?

 

Well.. actually you are both right. Studies have shown the minimal human interaction you to keep sane is around 10 minutes a day and if you do not have that interaction the majority of people will actively seek out conversations. If you do not your social skills will begin to degrade to the point it impairs you speech. Other symtoms include anxiety, stress and depression. This explains why you are more likely to have an elderly person who is living alone talking to the check out girl and why if you have been alone all day you start babbling, particularly if you are a woman. :) 

However, I don't believe the same rules apply to MMOs or chatrooms etc. TBH I find it harder to have a meaningful conversation in games than in real life. However, I have enjoyed the games that have had force grouping and in my mind they have been more memorable experiences. However some people find it difficult to be more socially pro-active, either because of shyness or just simply impatient.

<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/11.jpg></a></p>RL][/CENTER]

  Jemcrystal

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1365

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

10/03/12 9:25:45 AM#25

 

Some people are trying to use MMORPG's as a dating service - for friendship or intimate partners.  It's not that simple.  It's easy to make friends in the age bracket 4-15 yrs old then it starts to get hard.  We get jaded from abuse or simple lack of understanding.  I feel sorry for you.  I wish there was a way to help but online is not where you want to look for best friends or better.  Yeah, I know it sucks.

 

Other people are using MMORPG's for what they were designed.  Like you said OP, going to an online bar just to be around others and not feel so alienated in the God's Green Universe.  This view is more realistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6EoRBvdVPQ

  pkpkpk

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 74

10/03/12 11:26:39 AM#26
It's probably not that we want to be forced to interact with other people (I'm not going to give such a misguided thread much thought), but that there is no other way to create a good RPG. You are an idiot if you compare solo and group MMORPGs and then create this thread. Solo MMORPGs are shit, group MMORPGs are good; there are few exceptions. If you don't perceive this you are either young or one of the common herd.
  strangewizard

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/12
Posts: 42

10/03/12 11:30:51 AM#27

Actually this topic can easily be summed up into two words "player decay".

What is player decay? Player decay is a phrase I just made up to describe a phenomena with MMORPGS that have leveling. Say you make a new MMORPG with forced grouping that has players go from 1-50.

At launch, everyone will be level 1, and soon level 10 will be where most players are at. This means getting groups for level 10 contnet is extremely easy. However, in a year, when most are at 50 (let's assume an easy leveling game), finding those level 10 groups is going to be a lot more difficult, if not impossible, especially if you play on a low populated server (or if there is only one server, a low populated game), during off-hours.

That's all you really need to say on that topic.

This type of system forces people to play during prime time or with friends, unless the game is super popular, still, the problem of player decay exists.

  pkpkpk

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 74

10/03/12 11:35:34 AM#28
To revisit this thread, it's like banging your head against a wall expecting another good solo MMORPG. Only one giant with an established history of making simple but good PC games is going to make a game that breaks the rules and they already have. Let the little kids move on. It's time to get back to traditional MMORPG design if we ever want to see a good game again.
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19378

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/03/12 11:42:42 AM#29
Originally posted by jpnz

I wish to shift the focus a bit and move away from 'game design' which is the stickied 'Solo vs group' thread.

From a RL point of view, humans generally don't talk to strangers with no reason. Despite the advancement in technology of 'contact me anywhere', rarely do we see humans just walk up to someone and talk to them.

If we do it is because we want something from the interaction; I talk to cafe lady who wants my money and I need my caffine shot.

Humans want to be in the presence of other people but not actually interact with all of them. I go to bars with my friends and hang out with my friends. I don't go to bars and talk to someone I don't know; unless its staff and my orange juice is 30 seconds late.

Exception is if I am there with a specific focus on 'talking to strangers' like 'Singles Bar / Speed dating' but even then, there is that desire to get something (companionship) out of it.

 

Forced grouping in MMOs? Fine. Cool. Have at it.

But looking at how most people (maybe its because I lived in large cities most of my life?) live, don't expect a massive amount of people.

 

I've made sweaping generalization which won't apply 100% (Yes that ONE poster who's like 'but I talk to EVERYONE! ^__^ ) but that's how I view why forced grouping won't be popular. Pretty sure a professional in social / behavioural science can poke holes in my theory though. :P 

You did an excellent job in your examples of proving why developers of MMO's should code in forced interdependency between players to achieve certain game goals. 

Since modern MMO's don't, players don't bother to socialize or interact except in the few places interdependency remains, which is dungeons and raids pretty much.
 

Probably not your intent however.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  phantomghost

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/11
Posts: 635

"Kill me, my man kills you, that's how you lose."

10/03/12 11:43:32 AM#30

I am not even going to read because logically you are wrong.

 

Please tell me the individual who started their own hunter/gatherer society alone... got pregnant with themselves... I will answer nobody.

 

It is actually human nature to need each other.  I don't know if you need to talk to your parents about sex... but that alone should be enough to explain that.

 

Also, I believe you may want to be evalutated if you believe people do not need others.

 

Ok read a portion of your post...

 

So why are you playing an MMORPG if you do not need to interact with other players?  Just curious because right now I still believe you live in a fantasy world or really need to enter a mental facility.

 

How did you meet your friends?  Were you not forced to go to school?  Did you all just magically know each other with out ever being social?

 

I cannot think of one day I left my house and did not talk to a stranger.  Hell.. right now I haven't even left my house and I am responding to a stranger...

"I see they watchin' me and takin' notes on my moves, Run up on me it's all I want I ain't got nothin' to lose."

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

10/03/12 12:29:42 PM#31
Originally posted by phantomghost

It is actually human nature to need each other.  I don't know if you need to talk to your parents about sex... but that alone should be enough to explain that.

 

Not all the time. Otherwise, solo gameplay won't be that popular. Surely i need my wife to have my two sons. But i hardly "need" her when i want to kill some stuff to have fun.

  pkpkpk

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/10
Posts: 74

10/03/12 2:08:36 PM#32
Originally posted by strangewizard

Actually this topic can easily be summed up into two words "player decay".

What is player decay? Player decay is a phrase I just made up to describe a phenomena with MMORPGS that have leveling. Say you make a new MMORPG with forced grouping that has players go from 1-50.

At launch, everyone will be level 1, and soon level 10 will be where most players are at. This means getting groups for level 10 contnet is extremely easy. However, in a year, when most are at 50 (let's assume an easy leveling game), finding those level 10 groups is going to be a lot more difficult, if not impossible, especially if you play on a low populated server (or if there is only one server, a low populated game), during off-hours.

That's all you really need to say on that topic.

This type of system forces people to play during prime time or with friends, unless the game is super popular, still, the problem of player decay exists.

 

Whether or not forced grouping has problems is independent of the issue that a good MMORPG can't be made without it.

  goozmania

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/18/07
Posts: 126

10/03/12 2:28:18 PM#33
Originally posted by strangewizard

Actually this topic can easily be summed up into two words "player decay".

What is player decay? Player decay is a phrase I just made up to describe a phenomena with MMORPGS that have leveling. Say you make a new MMORPG with forced grouping that has players go from 1-50.

At launch, everyone will be level 1, and soon level 10 will be where most players are at. This means getting groups for level 10 contnet is extremely easy. However, in a year, when most are at 50 (let's assume an easy leveling game), finding those level 10 groups is going to be a lot more difficult, if not impossible, especially if you play on a low populated server (or if there is only one server, a low populated game), during off-hours.

That's all you really need to say on that topic.

This type of system forces people to play during prime time or with friends, unless the game is super popular, still, the problem of player decay exists.

I agree, but only to an extent. Player decay is really the product of solo friendly games, where getting to the max level can happen in a short amount of time (also, when said max level is a ridiculously high number, like 90). Back when EQ was at its prime, 3 expansions in, with 300-500k players, there were always people, of all level ranges, grouping 24 hours a day. Most of the dungeons, even from the original release, were packed with 3+ full groups and some farmers annoying said groups.

If levelling takes a long time, and the level cap remains fairly low (alternate advancement can be included in lieu of physical levels, at that point), player decay can be thwarted indefinitely. This would keep a lot of content from becoming trivial and unused, and allows more people to group together. Sure, in EQ, you'd find people with 1000 aa's not wanting to group with a fresh level 60; but the important part is they still can group, and use the same content. 1000aa guy might want to do the more difficult stuff for better gear, but he still gets exp and money from weaker stuff, so there's still incentive.

I think forced grouping is the answer for a fun successful MMO. I also believe that WoW is more forced grouping than people let on; its clones, however, have not been. WoW and EQ2 created somewhat of a hybrid group/solo model, but both pretty much required grouping throughout the entire level range, if you wanted to complete the good quests and get the good rewards.

  strangepowers

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 607

SCAD Animation-Film-F/X

10/03/12 2:34:46 PM#34

You don't go to bars to meet strangers...and you order orange juice while there?

I stopped reading there, it's a can of worms.

The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

  phantomghost

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/11
Posts: 635

"Kill me, my man kills you, that's how you lose."

10/04/12 12:16:14 AM#35
Originally posted by strangepower

You don't go to bars to meet strangers...and you order orange juice while there?

I stopped reading there, it's a can of worms.

I know that part was just too much for me too.

 

I only go to bars to creepily stare at strangers and scurry away if they notice or try to interact with me and I only order bottled water... cuz I am just that cool.

 

Don't get me started if that bottled water takes too long to get to me.  Thats when interaction 101 takes place.. the whole bar is going to know just how bad I want my damn water.

"I see they watchin' me and takin' notes on my moves, Run up on me it's all I want I ain't got nothin' to lose."

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2594

10/04/12 12:40:38 AM#36
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Starpower

It's human behavior to want to choose when and where to be social and not have it crammed down your throat. Games should work much the same way.

Except in games if you want to simulate human interaction...

We're forced in our day to day lives to interact with people all the time. Sometimes this leads to social encounters. Some people need the incentive or the push. 

MMOs would work in the same way. They'd set up the potential for a social exchange and leave it to you to take it further.

Modern MMOs just make you 100% self sufficient, which means no socializing or social community ever develops. And without a community holding people to games, they peter out and die very quickly (see every WoW clone).

Games are first and foremost recreational. The word 'forced' rings badly with that.

 

Lets not forget that "we" the gamers has pushed the genre in the direction it is in and not the developers. They only follow where the money is.

 

Except that the money was never in WoW clones. They didn't understand what made WoW a success and they never figured it out.

Of course they have. They simply can't reproduce it for a variety of reasons.

If that was true, and they knew they couldn't reproduce it, don't you think they wouldn't have wasted money trying? No. They don't understand at all, which is why SWTOR was such a huge failure.

  UsualSuspect

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/01/04
Posts: 1229

10/04/12 2:30:24 AM#37
Originally posted by jpnz

I wish to shift the focus a bit and move away from 'game design' which is the stickied 'Solo vs group' thread.

From a RL point of view, humans generally don't talk to strangers with no reason. Despite the advancement in technology of 'contact me anywhere', rarely do we see humans just walk up to someone and talk to them.

If we do it is because we want something from the interaction; I talk to cafe lady who wants my money and I need my caffine shot.

And this is the theory behind 'forced' grouping. It's a simple way of bringing people together, because they 'want something from the interaction'. If the game is designed so that you find it difficult or maybe even impossible to solo then you need to seek out aid in the form of other players, much like you seek out the cafe lady for your mug of coffee. It's what humans have been doing all through time, seeking aid from others to make their tasks easier, from hunting to building skyscrapers, or calling Virgin tech support to fix your damn phone line.

Once those people are together for an extended period a bond forms between them, especially in the case of interdependency, as in the tank needs the healer to keep him alive, while the healer needs the crowd control to keep him alive, who in turn needs the tank to keep him alive...

That's the idea behind forced grouping. But I don't like the word 'forced', it gives it a negative connotation, I just call it multiplayer. The word forced is a recent idea brought in by the soloers of the MMO world, who would be better off playing a single player game.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5666

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/04/12 2:33:43 AM#38

Random people can't do shit. If you want something done, do it yourself - or trust in a premade. 95% of the time, random people suck*.

*(Based on empirical data from varying games gathered over the years.)

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  StonesDK

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/11
Posts: 1845

10/04/12 6:50:30 AM#39
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Starpower

It's human behavior to want to choose when and where to be social and not have it crammed down your throat. Games should work much the same way.

Except in games if you want to simulate human interaction...

We're forced in our day to day lives to interact with people all the time. Sometimes this leads to social encounters. Some people need the incentive or the push. 

MMOs would work in the same way. They'd set up the potential for a social exchange and leave it to you to take it further.

Modern MMOs just make you 100% self sufficient, which means no socializing or social community ever develops. And without a community holding people to games, they peter out and die very quickly (see every WoW clone).

Games are first and foremost recreational. The word 'forced' rings badly with that.

 

Lets not forget that "we" the gamers has pushed the genre in the direction it is in and not the developers. They only follow where the money is.

 

Except that the money was never in WoW clones. They didn't understand what made WoW a success and they never figured it out.

Of course they have. They simply can't reproduce it for a variety of reasons.

If that was true, and they knew they couldn't reproduce it, don't you think they wouldn't have wasted money trying? No. They don't understand at all, which is why SWTOR was such a huge failure.

It's quite simple, they have to follow suit. People want familiarity like it or not. If they don't implement XYZ features people will simply leave. That's probably why SWTOR failed. It wasn't enough like WoW

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19378

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/04/12 7:02:35 AM#40
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by phantomghost

It is actually human nature to need each other.  I don't know if you need to talk to your parents about sex... but that alone should be enough to explain that.

 

Not all the time. Otherwise, solo gameplay won't be that popular. Surely i need my wife to have my two sons. But i hardly "need" her when i want to kill some stuff to have fun.

Actually, ask anyone who goes "hunting" in real life how often they go out in the woods alone.  While some do of course, most hunters go out in pack, because the social interaction is more important than the hunting itself.

Heck, my grandfather hunted deer every year and admitted he only shot one, because he had no real interest in doing so, he was there for the drinking and socialization.

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

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