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Originally posted by gaeanprayer

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

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Originally posted by botrytis

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer Why is this community so stuck clinging to a notion that no raids is better better than a game with raids? Really? If you don't like them, don't do them. What's the big deal? So WoW and Rift have raids. You don't want to raid so that makes GW2 better simply because it lacks them? That's totally ridiculous. I've heard the argument about gear chasing and that argument is ridiculous too. It's always the same. They get the best gear so they can ROFLSTOMP other players. In case you missed it, Raiders in raid gear haven't been able to ROFLSTOMP other players since vanilla WoW. Once resil hit PVP gear, that argument went out the window. Rift has the same thing. PVP gear is for PVP. So then back to PVE. Raid gear is only good for progression raiding. If you don't progression raid, then having or not having the best gear is pointless. My Rift character has a combination of crafted, Expert dungeon epics and Planar gear. Guess what? It's more than enough to outgear anything PVE in the game outside of progression radis. Expert dungeons? I can keep up with progression raider's DPS. Once you get to a certain point with gear, and it's easy to get. Then Progression raid gear is just overkill and has little value in anything but the hardest raids. The progression raid geared player can 2 shot a level 50 standard zone mob....So can I. So what if his did more DPS than mine, I still killed it just as quick. Now, as far as PVP goes, the GW2 argument is even more ridiculous. The argument I hear all the time is that WoW PvPers win because they got the gear. Well, How do you think they got that gear in the 1st place? They sure as hell spent a ton more time than those who didn't get it. And guess what? With progression PVP, they have to have skill before they can get the top gear. And once they all get the top gear, gear is no longer a factor in PVP. So it all boils down to skill. The gear just means the PVPer had the commitment to get it and developed the skills to use it. Someone without gear dabbles in BGs every now and again and bitches that he lost because of gear. Well, that's only part of it. Let's take those same 2 players and put them in GW2. Who's gonna win? Yeah, the same guy who was committed to spending hrs and hrs and hrs honing his PVP skills. Not the guy who queues up for WvW in between his personal story and hearts and DEs. Oh, but now, it's fair because there is no gear right? If players make the same commitment in WoW as they make in GW2 to be the best, then they'd have had the gear in WoW in the 1st place. So now they come here bitching because they lacked the commitment to get good and now want the game to either hand them something, or to take it away from someone who would earn it. PFFT. Ridiculous.

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The point is and you missed it, most RAIDS ARE THE ENDGAME. If you want to play the end game, YOU HAVE TO RAID - PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that.

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  What does that mean, "Endgame you Have to raid?" No you don't. I don't. And still what's GW2 offer as an alternative? Either way, you aren't raiding. I still don't get the argument. You remove raiding from WoW or Rift and They STILL have more than GW2 for endgame. In Rift, I can do dailys, And there are enough of them in Rift that I can usually only do one zone a day. So the rotation is big enough to off se the repetition. Don't like Dailys? OK, You can craft to sell stuff. Yeah, you can do that in GW2 as well. I can PVP, But I know, there's that gear argument. So instead of getting creamed in PVP in Rift, you'll get creamed in GW2 by the same hardcore PVPers. So yeah Whatever. There are Expert dungeons to do in Rift. But hey if you'd rather run around like chase scene out of Benny Hill, then OK. There are Instant Adventures. (Technically more dynamic than DEs) Hey, f you don't want that, you can do Chronicles. Another introduction by Rift. 1-2 man instanced dungeons. Scaled down versions of the 5 mans. And finally, there are zone invasions. They blow away anything in GW2 for open world PVE (My opinion of course) I don't raid in Rift. And I wasn't bored. I'll defer to someone else who can address the endgame in WoW currently, I don't know that yet. But I've heard they made other things more important than just raiding.

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Your post is colored by bias. Everything you spouted about Rift is in my view monotonous and boring. Instant Adventures are the same 5 combination of quests run by a group of people over and over. Run to the castle, kill undead until boss pops, kill it, then get teleported to burn undead, then go here and zerg this group of enemies, then rinse and repeat until you're dying of boredom (which won't take long). Dynamic my butt. Chronicles are scaled down versions of raids which isn't even worth bringing up in a GW2 forum since most of the people playing it are here because they don't like the typical MMO formula, which includes raiding. PvP is not going to get you roasted if you don't have the best gear, Golds drop like candy and exotics are a single digit % better, and craftable with a couple days work at the most if you are that much of a min/maxer. Dailies? That someone offered that as 'content' is mind-boggling, I'll just leave that alone. Zone invasions in Rift are the most repetitive things in that game and the only thing spontaneous about them is when they start, to rave about that then complain about anything in GW2 is nothing short of hypocritical.

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  Well, What's GW2 offer instead? And don't give me some "go finish the maps" Yeah, I can down level to 20 and that's endgame? I don't think so.

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"I don't think so" is not a valid defense for anything as down-leveling neither makes you feeble (which you'd know if you actually played well into the game) nor is it worthless for someone who is at level cap. You still get drops your level, it's a great way to make money, and best yet they're the most populated areas aside from Orr, so it's the best place to be social and help others out. If you want to stick to endgame, there are huge, mass parties running CONSTANTLY in the 75+ zones as people try to build karma for either legendaries or karma skins, and clearing the temples of the Gods takes actual coordination (particularly Lyssa). Do the dungeons if you miss them in Rift or ignore them if you don't. 1 gold will get you a full set of gold gear, and if you have anyhting less than 4g by the time you're 80 you're doing something wrong.

Everything you listed there as a + for Rift exists in GW2 and then some, GW2 just isn't going to slap a label on it and shove it down your throat nor is it going to commit you to it in order to be competitive. If you need your game to force you to do something in order to have a reason to do it, you're not looking for a game, you're looking for a job.

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How is it not a valid defense? When exchanging opinions, it's the ONLY defense. Clearly ours differ. and there is little either of us is going to do to change that. We've both played both games and we have our preferences. I think Rift has a better end game, "You don't think so" And I guess that's OK. I think there are more options than whether to raid or not. But Whatever, As long as we both enjoy our respective games, I guess that's the best you and I are going to see on this issue. And again, that's fine, but as my initial argument still stands (IMO) "To have the option to raid or not is better than not having the option."

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

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Originally posted by botrytis

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer Why is this community so stuck clinging to a notion that no raids is better better than a game with raids? Really? If you don't like them, don't do them. What's the big deal? So WoW and Rift have raids. You don't want to raid so that makes GW2 better simply because it lacks them? That's totally ridiculous. I've heard the argument about gear chasing and that argument is ridiculous too. It's always the same. They get the best gear so they can ROFLSTOMP other players. In case you missed it, Raiders in raid gear haven't been able to ROFLSTOMP other players since vanilla WoW. Once resil hit PVP gear, that argument went out the window. Rift has the same thing. PVP gear is for PVP. So then back to PVE. Raid gear is only good for progression raiding. If you don't progression raid, then having or not having the best gear is pointless. My Rift character has a combination of crafted, Expert dungeon epics and Planar gear. Guess what? It's more than enough to outgear anything PVE in the game outside of progression radis. Expert dungeons? I can keep up with progression raider's DPS. Once you get to a certain point with gear, and it's easy to get. Then Progression raid gear is just overkill and has little value in anything but the hardest raids. The progression raid geared player can 2 shot a level 50 standard zone mob....So can I. So what if his did more DPS than mine, I still killed it just as quick. Now, as far as PVP goes, the GW2 argument is even more ridiculous. The argument I hear all the time is that WoW PvPers win because they got the gear. Well, How do you think they got that gear in the 1st place? They sure as hell spent a ton more time than those who didn't get it. And guess what? With progression PVP, they have to have skill before they can get the top gear. And once they all get the top gear, gear is no longer a factor in PVP. So it all boils down to skill. The gear just means the PVPer had the commitment to get it and developed the skills to use it. Someone without gear dabbles in BGs every now and again and bitches that he lost because of gear. Well, that's only part of it. Let's take those same 2 players and put them in GW2. Who's gonna win? Yeah, the same guy who was committed to spending hrs and hrs and hrs honing his PVP skills. Not the guy who queues up for WvW in between his personal story and hearts and DEs. Oh, but now, it's fair because there is no gear right? If players make the same commitment in WoW as they make in GW2 to be the best, then they'd have had the gear in WoW in the 1st place. So now they come here bitching because they lacked the commitment to get good and now want the game to either hand them something, or to take it away from someone who would earn it. PFFT. Ridiculous.

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The point is and you missed it, most RAIDS ARE THE ENDGAME. If you want to play the end game, YOU HAVE TO RAID - PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that.

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  What does that mean, "Endgame you Have to raid?" No you don't. I don't. And still what's GW2 offer as an alternative? Either way, you aren't raiding. I still don't get the argument. You remove raiding from WoW or Rift and They STILL have more than GW2 for endgame. In Rift, I can do dailys, And there are enough of them in Rift that I can usually only do one zone a day. So the rotation is big enough to off se the repetition. Don't like Dailys? OK, You can craft to sell stuff. Yeah, you can do that in GW2 as well. I can PVP, But I know, there's that gear argument. So instead of getting creamed in PVP in Rift, you'll get creamed in GW2 by the same hardcore PVPers. So yeah Whatever. There are Expert dungeons to do in Rift. But hey if you'd rather run around like chase scene out of Benny Hill, then OK. There are Instant Adventures. (Technically more dynamic than DEs) Hey, f you don't want that, you can do Chronicles. Another introduction by Rift. 1-2 man instanced dungeons. Scaled down versions of the 5 mans. And finally, there are zone invasions. They blow away anything in GW2 for open world PVE (My opinion of course) I don't raid in Rift. And I wasn't bored. I'll defer to someone else who can address the endgame in WoW currently, I don't know that yet. But I've heard they made other things more important than just raiding.

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Your post is colored by bias. Everything you spouted about Rift is in my view monotonous and boring. Instant Adventures are the same 5 combination of quests run by a group of people over and over. Run to the castle, kill undead until boss pops, kill it, then get teleported to burn undead, then go here and zerg this group of enemies, then rinse and repeat until you're dying of boredom (which won't take long). Dynamic my butt. Chronicles are scaled down versions of raids which isn't even worth bringing up in a GW2 forum since most of the people playing it are here because they don't like the typical MMO formula, which includes raiding. PvP is not going to get you roasted if you don't have the best gear, Golds drop like candy and exotics are a single digit % better, and craftable with a couple days work at the most if you are that much of a min/maxer. Dailies? That someone offered that as 'content' is mind-boggling, I'll just leave that alone. Zone invasions in Rift are the most repetitive things in that game and the only thing spontaneous about them is when they start, to rave about that then complain about anything in GW2 is nothing short of hypocritical.

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  Well, What's GW2 offer instead? And don't give me some "go finish the maps" Yeah, I can down level to 20 and that's endgame? I don't think so.

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"I don't think so" is not a valid defense for anything as down-leveling neither makes you feeble (which you'd know if you actually played well into the game) nor is it worthless for someone who is at level cap. You still get drops your level, it's a great way to make money, and best yet they're the most populated areas aside from Orr, so it's the best place to be social and help others out. If you want to stick to endgame, there are huge, mass parties running CONSTANTLY in the 75+ zones as people try to build karma for either legendaries or karma skins, and clearing the temples of the Gods takes actual coordination (particularly Lyssa). Do the dungeons if you miss them in Rift or ignore them if you don't. 1 gold will get you a full set of gold gear, and if you have anyhting less than 4g by the time you're 80 you're doing something wrong.

 

Everything you listed there as a + for Rift exists in GW2 and then some, GW2 just isn't going to slap a label on it and shove it down your throat nor is it going to commit you to it in order to be competitive. If you need your game to force you to do something in order to have a reason to do it, you're not looking for a game, you're looking for a job.

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How is it not a valid defense? When exchanging opinions, it's the ONLY defense. Clearly ours differ. and there is little either of us is going to do to change that. We've both played both games and we have our preferences. I think Rift has a better end game, "You don't think so" And I guess that's OK. I think there are more options than whether to raid or not. But Whatever, As long as we both enjoy our respective games, I guess that's the best you and I are going to see on this issue. And again, that's fine, but as my initial argument still stands (IMO) "To have the option to raid or not is better than not having the option."

It's not valid because exploring all of the game's content is the purpose behind there being an achievement for 100%. Therefore, refusing to explore the world and complete content just because you get scaled down in level, then turning around and complaining there isn't content, is silly. That's like refusing to be fed then complaining you're hungry. If that makes sense to you then...kay. As for raiding, yes it would be additional content, but it also changes the core of the game. People aren't going to gather 25+ people for a large-scale raid, especially at the difficulty Anet puts in their dungeons, for anything less than OP gear. They barely do it now just for regular dungeons, which are a hell of a lot easier than a Raid would be. If you don't add uber, elitist gear then the desire to complete the raids dies, and if you do then you've changed the core of the game and pissed off the people that are still playing after the initial zerg goes back to WoW. Or Rift, evidently. So no, options aren't always a good thing.

edit = btw, Rift was half the game it is now at launch. GW2 has been out a month and its comparable to Rift in content now, let alone Rift as it existed when it first launched.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

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Originally posted by botrytis

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer Why is this community so stuck clinging to a notion that no raids is better better than a game with raids? Really? If you don't like them, don't do them. What's the big deal? So WoW and Rift have raids. You don't want to raid so that makes GW2 better simply because it lacks them? That's totally ridiculous. I've heard the argument about gear chasing and that argument is ridiculous too. It's always the same. They get the best gear so they can ROFLSTOMP other players. In case you missed it, Raiders in raid gear haven't been able to ROFLSTOMP other players since vanilla WoW. Once resil hit PVP gear, that argument went out the window. Rift has the same thing. PVP gear is for PVP. So then back to PVE. Raid gear is only good for progression raiding. If you don't progression raid, then having or not having the best gear is pointless. My Rift character has a combination of crafted, Expert dungeon epics and Planar gear. Guess what? It's more than enough to outgear anything PVE in the game outside of progression radis. Expert dungeons? I can keep up with progression raider's DPS. Once you get to a certain point with gear, and it's easy to get. Then Progression raid gear is just overkill and has little value in anything but the hardest raids. The progression raid geared player can 2 shot a level 50 standard zone mob....So can I. So what if his did more DPS than mine, I still killed it just as quick. Now, as far as PVP goes, the GW2 argument is even more ridiculous. The argument I hear all the time is that WoW PvPers win because they got the gear. Well, How do you think they got that gear in the 1st place? They sure as hell spent a ton more time than those who didn't get it. And guess what? With progression PVP, they have to have skill before they can get the top gear. And once they all get the top gear, gear is no longer a factor in PVP. So it all boils down to skill. The gear just means the PVPer had the commitment to get it and developed the skills to use it. Someone without gear dabbles in BGs every now and again and bitches that he lost because of gear. Well, that's only part of it. Let's take those same 2 players and put them in GW2. Who's gonna win? Yeah, the same guy who was committed to spending hrs and hrs and hrs honing his PVP skills. Not the guy who queues up for WvW in between his personal story and hearts and DEs. Oh, but now, it's fair because there is no gear right? If players make the same commitment in WoW as they make in GW2 to be the best, then they'd have had the gear in WoW in the 1st place. So now they come here bitching because they lacked the commitment to get good and now want the game to either hand them something, or to take it away from someone who would earn it. PFFT. Ridiculous.

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The point is and you missed it, most RAIDS ARE THE ENDGAME. If you want to play the end game, YOU HAVE TO RAID - PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that.

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  What does that mean, "Endgame you Have to raid?" No you don't. I don't. And still what's GW2 offer as an alternative? Either way, you aren't raiding. I still don't get the argument. You remove raiding from WoW or Rift and They STILL have more than GW2 for endgame. In Rift, I can do dailys, And there are enough of them in Rift that I can usually only do one zone a day. So the rotation is big enough to off se the repetition. Don't like Dailys? OK, You can craft to sell stuff. Yeah, you can do that in GW2 as well. I can PVP, But I know, there's that gear argument. So instead of getting creamed in PVP in Rift, you'll get creamed in GW2 by the same hardcore PVPers. So yeah Whatever. There are Expert dungeons to do in Rift. But hey if you'd rather run around like chase scene out of Benny Hill, then OK. There are Instant Adventures. (Technically more dynamic than DEs) Hey, f you don't want that, you can do Chronicles. Another introduction by Rift. 1-2 man instanced dungeons. Scaled down versions of the 5 mans. And finally, there are zone invasions. They blow away anything in GW2 for open world PVE (My opinion of course) I don't raid in Rift. And I wasn't bored. I'll defer to someone else who can address the endgame in WoW currently, I don't know that yet. But I've heard they made other things more important than just raiding.

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Your post is colored by bias. Everything you spouted about Rift is in my view monotonous and boring. Instant Adventures are the same 5 combination of quests run by a group of people over and over. Run to the castle, kill undead until boss pops, kill it, then get teleported to burn undead, then go here and zerg this group of enemies, then rinse and repeat until you're dying of boredom (which won't take long). Dynamic my butt. Chronicles are scaled down versions of raids which isn't even worth bringing up in a GW2 forum since most of the people playing it are here because they don't like the typical MMO formula, which includes raiding. PvP is not going to get you roasted if you don't have the best gear, Golds drop like candy and exotics are a single digit % better, and craftable with a couple days work at the most if you are that much of a min/maxer. Dailies? That someone offered that as 'content' is mind-boggling, I'll just leave that alone. Zone invasions in Rift are the most repetitive things in that game and the only thing spontaneous about them is when they start, to rave about that then complain about anything in GW2 is nothing short of hypocritical.

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Well, What's GW2 offer instead? And don't give me some "go finish the maps" Yeah, I can down level to 20 and that's endgame? I don't think so. Giving me the EXACT same thing to do as if I were leveling an alt, is hardly endgame content.

You get epicness...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fi7kYgUspE&feature=related

There is level 80 content.... why do people keep pretending it doesn't exist?

Arah

Crucible of Eternity

Honor of the Waves

Ignoring whats there to try and make a point is simply asinine. Down leveling also makes ALL the content in the game end game content. Saying "Sure I know you can still do level 20 content at 80, receive rewards and still experience it the way it is meant to be experienced... but that doesn't count" is simply asinine as well.

What happens at level cap in WoW? Can you go to another races starting zone and do quests there and still receive adequate compensation? Challenge? Is there really any reason to go back to those zones since you gain nothing from them? No, you can't so the down leveling adds a whole ton of content for you to do that you simply would not have access to in games like WoW after you've out leveled it.

Do you go to level 30 dungeons at level 80 in WoW and expect to receive any kind of rewards? Find any kind of challenge?

The down leveling adds a whole extra layer of content for you to do, you never out level the content. You can experience it all. This makes the level 20 content count as well. You can also receive level appropriate loot even in lower level zones.

There simply is a great deal to do at endgame. When your level 80 and have first hand experience then you can talk about the endgame content or the lack of it.

Originally posted by akiira69
When GUild WArs 2 was announced I said this would happen and the response i got was nope Guild Wars 2 will be different. I have played with exception to Lineage 1 every game NCsoft has released(Guild Wars, Lineage 2, Aion, Dungeon Runners, City of Heroes, Exteel, and Tabula Rasa), and I can tell you from past experience that when you get to end game youll find nothing there. So why should it be any different with Guild Wars 2? 

Fortunately for you if you read one post above yours you'd see that you were mistaken :)

Originally posted by gaeanprayer

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

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Originally posted by gaeanprayer

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer  

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Originally posted by botrytis

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Originally posted by GeezerGamer 

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It's not valid because exploring all of the game's content is the purpose behind there being an achievement for 100%. Therefore, refusing to explore the world and complete content just because you get scaled down in level, then turning around and complaining there isn't content, is silly. That's like refusing to be fed then complaining you're hungry. If that makes sense to you then...kay. As for raiding, yes it would be additional content, but it also changes the core of the game. People aren't going to gather 25+ people for a large-scale raid, especially at the difficulty Anet puts in their dungeons, for anything less than OP gear. They barely do it now just for regular dungeons, which are a hell of a lot easier than a Raid would be. If you don't add uber, elitist gear then the desire to complete the raids dies, and if you do then you've changed the core of the game and pissed off the people that are still playing after the initial zerg goes back to WoW. Or Rift, evidently. So no, options aren't always a good thing.

edit = btw, Rift was half the game it is now at launch. GW2 has been out a month and its comparable to Rift in content now, let alone Rift as it existed when it first launched.

No, it's not silly. Being leveled down and sent on to do low level content as a low level character is not something to look forward to, it's something to reflect back upon. and did you not just talk about not being forced to do something. and now you are. I don't understand that. And being forced to be down levels just destroys any concept of character progression whatsoever and normalizes the entire 1-80 back into a single level range. That to me is silly. Spend all this time grinding levels for what? And yeah, so, you are OP'd for the zone, it's not the point. The point is that it's pointless to say you actually level in this game. I don't get the point of the food analogy. If I don't enjoy an aspect of entertainment, I don't do it. If I am hungry, I'll eat whatever I can. How are they the same?

Now, as for raiding, we are getting to the heart of our disagreement. You are arguing on differences in game mechanics, NOT raiding as an option. And that totally makes sense. If you don't like the way the game flows, and you aren't going to raid anyway, then NO, Rift is pointless, if GW2 offers better mechanics. My argument really only works if all else is equal. But again, we are no where near my initial argument. That i s against, the claim Raiding sucks because of the gear grind. You don't have to do it and you aren't comparatively gimped for not raiding. As far as the difference in gear issue, I already spoke in that and I'm not repeating.

As far as how old a game is is irrelevant. WoW is 8 years old and in worse condition than when it was 4. GW2 could botch a content release next year, so can Rift. When you release a game, it needs to be able to compete with what's out there. Supposedly, GW2 was to have much better advancements in gaming than Rift upon release. So I don't see that point.

This is my first post after trolling around the forums for a long time. I was a long time WoW player and raider. I have a lv. 55 Ranger as my main, so I can't speak to the specifics of GW2's endgame yet...but I am begining to fear that I will not have the motivation to get there. 

I was super hyped for GW2, and like the OP said...it seems to be dying down every day. I will continue to play...but I don't see myself ever getting really hooked on this game. I had hoped that dungeons and WvWvW would be a new and exciting experience, but to be honest I dislike both (from what I have seen).

Dungeons are an absolute mess. The lack of roles makes it very difficuly to find a niche IMO. If ANET really wanted everyone to be able to do everything, they should have gone a step further and eliminated classes all together. I know that a lot of people are claiming to have wonderful experiences in dungeons...with lots of coordination and learning going on. I have not seen it. My experiences have been a lot of frustration because no one REALLY knows what to do, so they end up looking out for themselves. Thats fine to some extent, but it eliminates a lot of the group dynamic. In WoW I did not like being excluded from certain runs because of my class or role.....but I did enjoy having a role once I was in a dungeon or raid. I think the idea of being able to tank/heal/dps is great and allows everyone to access more of the content....but then being forced to perform a hybrid of all 3 once inside a dungeon is confusing and excessivley frustrating. I would much prefer a multi-build system that allowed all players/classes to perform all roles....but then actually gave them a role to perform. 

WvWvW is for the most part a zerg fest. I am sure that some very organized servers are able to avoid this, but every time I log into WvWvW my options are to either 1) join the large group that is running off to fight another large group, or 2) go hide in a keep and play defense the entire time. That gets boring quickly. I am having a very hard time finding ways to contribute as a single player, or even in a small group with friends. Not to mention that the COST of WvWvW is prohibitive. I feel like I have to save up to be able to afford a WvWvW session. I am sure that a large part of this is my lack of "skill" in pvp, but Im just giving my 2 cents. For a game that is using this WvWvW system as a large part of the "end game", it is just not fun enough. If I'm not really enjoying it at lv. 55....why will I enjoy it at lv. 80?

The other part that is really concerning me is the LARGE number of people that are acting like GW2 will never have a "gear treadmill"...and they seem to be happy about that. Yes, WoW had a "treadmill" of sorts....but you only had to reset when there was NEW CONTENT being offered. Yes, every 3-6 months there was a major patch that added in newer, better gear...but it came with new content to see and explore. You did not HAVE to touch this new content...BUT if you were "finished" with the progression to that point, it offered something new to strive for.

 I guess my concern is what on earth ANET will do with updates and expansions if there is never any kind of gear progression?? Are they going to release new content and patches that only offer lateral movement?? How many lv. 80 armor sets can one person expected to go after when the usefullness of the gear stays the same? Will they eventually sell us an expansion where noone can become anymore powerfull than they were with Vanilla GW2?? Becoming more powerfull in some way is at the heart of all MMO's...thats why you continue to level up...and why you want to continue playing. If GW2 was really just about improving your "skill"...then you would get rid of levels all together. You would start the game with all skills available, and simply spend your time getting better at using them. Right now GW2 has a half-assed system that tries to make you think leveling is important. Your first 30 levels you are working towards unlocking things and then that simply stops. After lv. 30 you basically stop getting substantial benefits from leveling. A lv. 30 toon that grinds some skill points can have more powers/abilities available to them than someone at lv. 50. The fact that there is literally NOTHING unlocked at major leveling milestones (40, 50, 60, 70, 80) seems wrong. I worked to level up....give me somethign for the effort!

I am sure I will get flamed for posting this, but after reading page after page I felt I wanted to chime in. I might be a noob...I might need to L2P....but I also am someone that really wants to like this game. I was all aboard the hype train...and convinced 3 of my friends to leave F2P Runes of Magic, spend the 60 bucks and jump into this game with me. Now I am feeling stupid because I myself, the hype machine, the guild leader...I'm finding it hard to find reasons to play. I really hope that changes are made sooner than later, because even though its no sub....playing on a regular basis is getting pretty trivial. 

Originally posted by adkenner

This is my first post after trolling around the forums for a long time. I was a long time WoW player and raider. I have a lv. 55 Ranger as my main, so I can't speak to the specifics of GW2's endgame yet...but I am begining to fear that I will not have the motivation to get there. 

I was super hyped for GW2, and like the OP said...it seems to be dying down every day. I will continue to play...but I don't see myself ever getting really hooked on this game. I had hoped that dungeons and WvWvW would be a new and exciting experience, but to be honest I dislike both (from what I have seen).

Dungeons are an absolute mess. The lack of roles makes it very difficuly to find a niche IMO. If ANET really wanted everyone to be able to do everything, they should have gone a step further and eliminated classes all together. I know that a lot of people are claiming to have wonderful experiences in dungeons...with lots of coordination and learning going on. I have not seen it. My experiences have been a lot of frustration because no one REALLY knows what to do, so they end up looking out for themselves. Thats fine to some extent, but it eliminates a lot of the group dynamic. In WoW I did not like being excluded from certain runs because of my class or role.....but I did enjoy having a role once I was in a dungeon or raid. I think the idea of being able to tank/heal/dps is great and allows everyone to access more of the content....but then being forced to perform a hybrid of all 3 once inside a dungeon is confusing and excessivley frustrating. I would much prefer a multi-build system that allowed all players/classes to perform all roles....but then actually gave them a role to perform. 

WvWvW is for the most part a zerg fest. I am sure that some very organized servers are able to avoid this, but every time I log into WvWvW my options are to either 1) join the large group that is running off to fight another large group, or 2) go hide in a keep and play defense the entire time. That gets boring quickly. I am having a very hard time finding ways to contribute as a single player, or even in a small group with friends. Not to mention that the COST of WvWvW is prohibitive. I feel like I have to save up to be able to afford a WvWvW session. I am sure that a large part of this is my lack of "skill" in pvp, but Im just giving my 2 cents. For a game that is using this WvWvW system as a large part of the "end game", it is just not fun enough. If I'm not really enjoying it at lv. 55....why will I enjoy it at lv. 80?

The other part that is really concerning me is the LARGE number of people that are acting like GW2 will never have a "gear treadmill"...and they seem to be happy about that. Yes, WoW had a "treadmill" of sorts....but you only had to reset when there was NEW CONTENT being offered. Yes, every 3-6 months there was a major patch that added in newer, better gear...but it came with new content to see and explore. You did not HAVE to touch this new content...BUT if you were "finished" with the progression to that point, it offered something new to strive for.

 I guess my concern is what on earth ANET will do with updates and expansions if there is never any kind of gear progression?? Are they going to release new content and patches that only offer lateral movement?? How many lv. 80 armor sets can one person expected to go after when the usefullness of the gear stays the same? Will they eventually sell us an expansion where noone can become anymore powerfull than they were with Vanilla GW2?? Becoming more powerfull in some way is at the heart of all MMO's...thats why you continue to level up...and why you want to continue playing. If GW2 was really just about improving your "skill"...then you would get rid of levels all together. You would start the game with all skills available, and simply spend your time getting better at using them. Right now GW2 has a half-assed system that tries to make you think leveling is important. Your first 30 levels you are working towards unlocking things and then that simply stops. After lv. 30 you basically stop getting substantial benefits from leveling. A lv. 30 toon that grinds some skill points can have more powers/abilities available to them than someone at lv. 50. The fact that there is literally NOTHING unlocked at major leveling milestones (40, 50, 60, 70, 80) seems wrong. I worked to level up....give me somethign for the effort!

I am sure I will get flamed for posting this, but after reading page after page I felt I wanted to chime in. I might be a noob...I might need to L2P....but I also am someone that really wants to like this game. I was all aboard the hype train...and convinced 3 of my friends to leave F2P Runes of Magic, spend the 60 bucks and jump into this game with me. Now I am feeling stupid because I myself, the hype machine, the guild leader...I'm finding it hard to find reasons to play. I really hope that changes are made sooner than later, because even though its no sub....playing on a regular basis is getting pretty trivial. 

Agree 100%. This game is so fluff, and so....it just seems like a fast food mmo. When you can get to 80 and immediately buy the BEST gear already, for dirt cheap, and then THATS IT. No more looking foward to more powerful items to further enhance your character. Yeah no thanks. So im going to spend months to get a legendary weapon that has the same stats as market gear? Please.

And the whole no Trinity system, yeah, its their for a reason, because it works. What they got now is...i dont know, its very wierd, very disconnected.

I can go on and on...but ill give it props too...

Graphics, Sound, Combat Animation, Big World Dragons (though only worth it first time, after that its pointless)

Yeah its a casual MMO.  Whats your point?  If you are looking for hardcore or something more traditional, look elsewhere.

PS:  GW2 is all game.  All game is endgame.

Originally posted by GMan33

Originally posted by adkenner

This is my first post after trolling around the forums for a long time. I was a long time WoW player and raider. I have a lv. 55 Ranger as my main, so I can't speak to the specifics of GW2's endgame yet...but I am begining to fear that I will not have the motivation to get there. 

I was super hyped for GW2, and like the OP said...it seems to be dying down every day. I will continue to play...but I don't see myself ever getting really hooked on this game. I had hoped that dungeons and WvWvW would be a new and exciting experience, but to be honest I dislike both (from what I have seen).

Dungeons are an absolute mess. The lack of roles makes it very difficuly to find a niche IMO. If ANET really wanted everyone to be able to do everything, they should have gone a step further and eliminated classes all together. I know that a lot of people are claiming to have wonderful experiences in dungeons...with lots of coordination and learning going on. I have not seen it. My experiences have been a lot of frustration because no one REALLY knows what to do, so they end up looking out for themselves. Thats fine to some extent, but it eliminates a lot of the group dynamic. In WoW I did not like being excluded from certain runs because of my class or role.....but I did enjoy having a role once I was in a dungeon or raid. I think the idea of being able to tank/heal/dps is great and allows everyone to access more of the content....but then being forced to perform a hybrid of all 3 once inside a dungeon is confusing and excessivley frustrating. I would much prefer a multi-build system that allowed all players/classes to perform all roles....but then actually gave them a role to perform. 

WvWvW is for the most part a zerg fest. I am sure that some very organized servers are able to avoid this, but every time I log into WvWvW my options are to either 1) join the large group that is running off to fight another large group, or 2) go hide in a keep and play defense the entire time. That gets boring quickly. I am having a very hard time finding ways to contribute as a single player, or even in a small group with friends. Not to mention that the COST of WvWvW is prohibitive. I feel like I have to save up to be able to afford a WvWvW session. I am sure that a large part of this is my lack of "skill" in pvp, but Im just giving my 2 cents. For a game that is using this WvWvW system as a large part of the "end game", it is just not fun enough. If I'm not really enjoying it at lv. 55....why will I enjoy it at lv. 80?

The other part that is really concerning me is the LARGE number of people that are acting like GW2 will never have a "gear treadmill"...and they seem to be happy about that. Yes, WoW had a "treadmill" of sorts....but you only had to reset when there was NEW CONTENT being offered. Yes, every 3-6 months there was a major patch that added in newer, better gear...but it came with new content to see and explore. You did not HAVE to touch this new content...BUT if you were "finished" with the progression to that point, it offered something new to strive for.

 I guess my concern is what on earth ANET will do with updates and expansions if there is never any kind of gear progression?? Are they going to release new content and patches that only offer lateral movement?? How many lv. 80 armor sets can one person expected to go after when the usefullness of the gear stays the same? Will they eventually sell us an expansion where noone can become anymore powerfull than they were with Vanilla GW2?? Becoming more powerfull in some way is at the heart of all MMO's...thats why you continue to level up...and why you want to continue playing. If GW2 was really just about improving your "skill"...then you would get rid of levels all together. You would start the game with all skills available, and simply spend your time getting better at using them. Right now GW2 has a half-assed system that tries to make you think leveling is important. Your first 30 levels you are working towards unlocking things and then that simply stops. After lv. 30 you basically stop getting substantial benefits from leveling. A lv. 30 toon that grinds some skill points can have more powers/abilities available to them than someone at lv. 50. The fact that there is literally NOTHING unlocked at major leveling milestones (40, 50, 60, 70, 80) seems wrong. I worked to level up....give me somethign for the effort!

I am sure I will get flamed for posting this, but after reading page after page I felt I wanted to chime in. I might be a noob...I might need to L2P....but I also am someone that really wants to like this game. I was all aboard the hype train...and convinced 3 of my friends to leave F2P Runes of Magic, spend the 60 bucks and jump into this game with me. Now I am feeling stupid because I myself, the hype machine, the guild leader...I'm finding it hard to find reasons to play. I really hope that changes are made sooner than later, because even though its no sub....playing on a regular basis is getting pretty trivial. 

Agree 100%. This game is so fluff, and so....it just seems like a fast food mmo. When you can get to 80 and immediately buy the BEST gear already, for dirt cheap, and then THATS IT. No more looking foward to more powerful items to further enhance your character. Yeah no thanks. So im going to spend months to get a legendary weapon that has the same stats as market gear? Please.

And the whole no Trinity system, yeah, its their for a reason, because it works. What they got now is...i dont know, its very wierd, very disconnected.

I can go on and on...but ill give it props too...

Graphics, Sound, Combat Animation, Big World Dragons (though only worth it first time, after that its pointless)

 

same feelings here m8 :)

Originally posted by GMan33

Originally posted by adkenner

This is my first post after trolling around the forums for a long time. I was a long time WoW player and raider. I have a lv. 55 Ranger as my main, so I can't speak to the specifics of GW2's endgame yet...but I am begining to fear that I will not have the motivation to get there. 

I was super hyped for GW2, and like the OP said...it seems to be dying down every day. I will continue to play...but I don't see myself ever getting really hooked on this game. I had hoped that dungeons and WvWvW would be a new and exciting experience, but to be honest I dislike both (from what I have seen).

Dungeons are an absolute mess. The lack of roles makes it very difficuly to find a niche IMO. If ANET really wanted everyone to be able to do everything, they should have gone a step further and eliminated classes all together. I know that a lot of people are claiming to have wonderful experiences in dungeons...with lots of coordination and learning going on. I have not seen it. My experiences have been a lot of frustration because no one REALLY knows what to do, so they end up looking out for themselves. Thats fine to some extent, but it eliminates a lot of the group dynamic. In WoW I did not like being excluded from certain runs because of my class or role.....but I did enjoy having a role once I was in a dungeon or raid. I think the idea of being able to tank/heal/dps is great and allows everyone to access more of the content....but then being forced to perform a hybrid of all 3 once inside a dungeon is confusing and excessivley frustrating. I would much prefer a multi-build system that allowed all players/classes to perform all roles....but then actually gave them a role to perform. 

WvWvW is for the most part a zerg fest. I am sure that some very organized servers are able to avoid this, but every time I log into WvWvW my options are to either 1) join the large group that is running off to fight another large group, or 2) go hide in a keep and play defense the entire time. That gets boring quickly. I am having a very hard time finding ways to contribute as a single player, or even in a small group with friends. Not to mention that the COST of WvWvW is prohibitive. I feel like I have to save up to be able to afford a WvWvW session. I am sure that a large part of this is my lack of "skill" in pvp, but Im just giving my 2 cents. For a game that is using this WvWvW system as a large part of the "end game", it is just not fun enough. If I'm not really enjoying it at lv. 55....why will I enjoy it at lv. 80?

The other part that is really concerning me is the LARGE number of people that are acting like GW2 will never have a "gear treadmill"...and they seem to be happy about that. Yes, WoW had a "treadmill" of sorts....but you only had to reset when there was NEW CONTENT being offered. Yes, every 3-6 months there was a major patch that added in newer, better gear...but it came with new content to see and explore. You did not HAVE to touch this new content...BUT if you were "finished" with the progression to that point, it offered something new to strive for.

 I guess my concern is what on earth ANET will do with updates and expansions if there is never any kind of gear progression?? Are they going to release new content and patches that only offer lateral movement?? How many lv. 80 armor sets can one person expected to go after when the usefullness of the gear stays the same? Will they eventually sell us an expansion where noone can become anymore powerfull than they were with Vanilla GW2?? Becoming more powerfull in some way is at the heart of all MMO's...thats why you continue to level up...and why you want to continue playing. If GW2 was really just about improving your "skill"...then you would get rid of levels all together. You would start the game with all skills available, and simply spend your time getting better at using them. Right now GW2 has a half-assed system that tries to make you think leveling is important. Your first 30 levels you are working towards unlocking things and then that simply stops. After lv. 30 you basically stop getting substantial benefits from leveling. A lv. 30 toon that grinds some skill points can have more powers/abilities available to them than someone at lv. 50. The fact that there is literally NOTHING unlocked at major leveling milestones (40, 50, 60, 70, 80) seems wrong. I worked to level up....give me somethign for the effort!

I am sure I will get flamed for posting this, but after reading page after page I felt I wanted to chime in. I might be a noob...I might need to L2P....but I also am someone that really wants to like this game. I was all aboard the hype train...and convinced 3 of my friends to leave F2P Runes of Magic, spend the 60 bucks and jump into this game with me. Now I am feeling stupid because I myself, the hype machine, the guild leader...I'm finding it hard to find reasons to play. I really hope that changes are made sooner than later, because even though its no sub....playing on a regular basis is getting pretty trivial. 

Agree 100%. This game is so fluff, and so....it just seems like a fast food mmo. When you can get to 80 and immediately buy the BEST gear already, for dirt cheap, and then THATS IT. No more looking foward to more powerful items to further enhance your character. Yeah no thanks. So im going to spend months to get a legendary weapon that has the same stats as market gear? Please.

And the whole no Trinity system, yeah, its their for a reason, because it works. What they got now is...i dont know, its very wierd, very disconnected.

I can go on and on...but ill give it props too...

Graphics, Sound, Combat Animation, Big World Dragons (though only worth it first time, after that its pointless)

 

 Trinity was not invented because it works, it was invented so the simple minded could learn their roles and hopefully perform them well enough. Trinity helps keep the less intelligent in line by defining their exact role.

You make it sound like every game MUST have the trinity system because it makes games work. That would be false.

Not surprising. Forced downscaling (due to kryptonite in the hills, no doubt) leaves very little sense of character progression, which is a main driving force in any RPG, MMO or not. My engineer feels almost exactly the same at level 33 as it did at level 10, and that's simply not going to cut it.

33 is as high as I've been able to bring myself to go. Other than to explore the (admittedly pretty) world, I have zero motivation to continue other than getting a new, relatively boring skill every 5 or 6 levels, or a meaningless trait point.

Guess I could always try some more of the ridiculously grindy crafting, but I don't want to compete with hordes of bots for the best grinding spots, so...

Originally posted by Badaboom

Yeah its a casual MMO.  Whats your point?  If you are looking for hardcore or something more traditional, look elsewhere.

PS:  GW2 is all game.  All game is endgame.

It's an MMO; but some of us want an MMORPG. I think that's where the difference lies.  I don't recall Arenanet ever saying they were taking the RPG aspect out, but it seems like they did (IMO).

For me, basically, PVE GW2 is the following:

Levels 1-5 : Action Fighting MMO

Levels 6+ : Watered-down version of "Tomb Raider" online but limited to jumping puzzles.

See I already own several different versions of Tomb Raider and they do the exploring/puzzle thing much better.  Second, if I wanted that kind of game, I would simply play that. What I want is an online Role Playing Game with others. So I can keep rerolling characters and bring them to level 5 but after a while it gets pretty dull.  (Sidenote: If they do downleveling, can't they also do upleveling??? Since I really don't get anything I care about in advancing the latter levels, I might just prefer to skip the whole experience thing and go to the next area..but then again, it becomes like Tomb Raider and I'm not really looking to play that now)

I have no interest in going back and doing lower levels because, hey, just like in Tomb Raider, once I finish a level I am pretty much done with it.

P.S. In case you are wondering, all this is my opinion.  Feel free to agree/disagree as you like.

Originally posted by Rednecksith

Not surprising. Forced downscaling (due to kryptonite in the hills, no doubt) leaves very little sense of character progression, which is a main driving force in any RPG, MMO or not. My engineer feels almost exactly the same at level 33 as it did at level 10, and that's simply not going to cut it.

33 is as high as I've been able to bring myself to go. Other than to explore the (admittedly pretty) world, I have zero motivation to continue other than getting a new, relatively boring skill every 5 or 6 levels, or a meaningless trait point.

Guess I could always try some more of the ridiculously grindy crafting, but I don't want to compete with hordes of bots for the best grinding spots, so...

 

 Trait points are not meaningless. In some cases they make a skill that was OK much better once you have them. For some builds trait points make the build viable, But at level 33 it might not seem that way.

Originally posted by Badaboom

Yeah its a casual MMO.  Whats your point?  If you are looking for hardcore or something more traditional, look elsewhere.

PS:  GW2 is all game.  All game is endgame.

That is the problem, isn't it? You have experienced all there is to experience in the game, fundamentally, by the time you are half way through the levels. Sure, the scenery changes, but after like level 50 or so the skills don't even change.  Sure there are new mobs, but the lofty goal of "just play for fun, and fun is the endgame," washes with a very VERY small number of people, certainly not enough people to sustain a major game, at least how I see it.

An MMORPG without progression needs to be better than anything out there with regards to play, and unfortunately for many, GW2 does not seem to be delivering.

Originally posted by Naral

Originally posted by Badaboom

Yeah its a casual MMO.  Whats your point?  If you are looking for hardcore or something more traditional, look elsewhere.

PS:  GW2 is all game.  All game is endgame.

That is the problem, isn't it? You have experienced all there is to experience in the game, fundamentally, by the time you are half way through the levels. Sure, the scenery changes, but after like level 50 or so the skills don't even change.  Sure there are new mobs, but the lofty goal of "just play for fun, and fun is the endgame," washes with a very VERY small number of people, certainly not enough people to sustain a major game, at least how I see it.

An MMORPG without progression needs to be better than anything out there with regards to play, and unfortunately for many, GW2 does not seem to be delivering.

 VERY small number? I think you are stuck thinking of MMOs 10 years ago. Today most game makers have come to understand that the majority of the potential playerbase for any MMO is casual players. Your claim of playing for fun washing with a VERY small number is a stat you made up. Research has been done that shows hardcore players arew the minority.

Your claim of GW2 having no progression is false. You can claim anything you want and claim that many dont like it, but that does not mean the game is not delivering for many others beyond the ones you feel you represent with your claims. When the servers are empty I will believe that GW2 is not delivering for the majority of people who are playing it now. Until then I take your claims with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by Mannish
I dont even see how people have been playing the game this long if they started when it released. 

Waiting on FFXIV re-release.

Originally posted by abeltensor

There is a reason you and alot of other people, my self included, are getting extremely bored with this game.  It is by nature extremely boring. 

There is no endgame.  (thats correct.)  Every class is a Healer/DPS/Tank so wheres the skill when all people do is zerg all the PvE content.  Even in a 5 man group there are no defined roles to play.  No one takes the blame or all the glory.  Everything about this game is hand-holding.  You enter a new zone, You find the scout then head for the heart thats near your level.  You kill stuff or play a silly minigame, then you explore a bit, but its not really exporing because its all marked on your minimap.  When you are tired of that, you do your Personal story which isnt that personal because by around lvl 35 everyone has the same storyline with minor details changed. Rinse and repeat.  

I absolutely hate the post WoW MMO era.  Pre-wow, it took hours to get one level, getting a reward ment working for it, quests were special events that you did to get unique items and even learning new skills was a mystery in the begining.  Now everything is on rails.  Theres no running across the direlands to get to BSD like in AC or going on a 4 hour epic corpse run because you died to a bunch of level 50 brownies in a zone 3 hours away from your bind point like in EQ.  with the linear leveling system that GW2 has in place, you essentually hit the climax of the game around lvl 5 when you obtain your skills and then everything else just is an after thought.      

 

IMO, After vinilla wow, the genera known as the MMO died.  All we have left are large chat rooms with detailed graphical UIs and even then with the new phasing enviroment and other features of that nature, the social aspects of these games get lost in translation so to speak.  The devs who are making these games are missing the point by pushing so much on the idea that they need capture a causal audiance of players because MMos by definition are not causial games.  You are supposed to get invested in the character you created.  You are supposed to put a lot of time and effort into playing these games to achieve the smallest of achievements.  Devs seem to think that if they make things more convieniant then the game will be better.  This is false, Extremely false.  

Welcome to my world. After UO all games except for SWG have been dull. LOL

Easier and easier.