Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 

The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

 

 

So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

 

The same majority aren't looking for a game to play for 6 months to a year. They want to play for a month tops, beat it and move on. They approach it the same they would a single player game. It is a box price to give them a couple weeks entertainment until the next thing pops up.

 

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

Smart phone gaming taps a different market. Do yourself a favor and don't try to tie those two together.[mod edit] The market I am talking about is the so called "casual gamers" - and no, it is not the same "casuals" MMORPG.com forum dwellers talk about - they are the sort who do not play games as a serious hobby but to pass time. For example, my mom and dad are casual gamers. Their gaming is restricted to Solitaire, Angry birds and Farmville. They probably don't even know what an MMORPG is.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 

The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

 

 

So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

 

The same majority aren't looking for a game to play for 6 months to a year. They want to play for a month tops, beat it and move on. They approach it the same they would a single player game. It is a box price to give them a couple weeks entertainment until the next thing pops up.

 

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

Smart phone gaming taps a different market. Do yourself a favor and don't try to tie those two together. You make yourself look like a fool. The market I am talking about is the so called "casual gamers" - and no, it is not the same "casuals" MMORPG.com forum dwellers talk about - they are the sort who do not play games as a hobby but to pass time. For example, my mom and dad are casual gamers. Their gaming is restricted to Solitaire, Angry birds and Farmville. They probably don't even know what an MMORPG is.

You arguing this is the most foolish thing in the entire thread.

You honestly think that the people out there who approach all games casually are a wholly seperate group from playing iPhone games? How can a personly possibly be that dense in life? Yes report this post for being true.

Anyone who thinks markets are that segregated have NO IDEA how the markets work.

Originally posted by Tjed

I have been lurking around here for a few years and I agree with you.  I'm starting to feel like it's almost time.  No one wants to build one yet because it's a gamble.  The safe bet is to build another one of what we have all been playing for the last 7-8 years.  If those games continue to fail, then maybe, just maybe there will be a bit of a retro movement.

Here's hoping.

Agreed.  If I was in charge of a company with a "current themepark" game in mid development I would seriously consider a change in design.  Not to say we will suddenly see more "open" games but this last year alone has shown, at least to me, that fully scripted content is not enough for new games.  The cost of development vs. player consumption is insane.

Does this mean we'll suddenly see sandbox type games coming out? Games that are more open and allow you to feel like part of the world? I think at first we'll see parts here and there as the development cycles bring us new titles.  Hopefully some development teams, aside from known games, have seen this comin and have already been at work.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 

The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

 

 

So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

 

The same majority aren't looking for a game to play for 6 months to a year. They want to play for a month tops, beat it and move on. They approach it the same they would a single player game. It is a box price to give them a couple weeks entertainment until the next thing pops up.

 

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

@Kyleran

I would say the majority do like those features.  However they leave likely because they find the gameplay itself a tad dull and repetitive.

All those things do is help you access the content, if the content itself is kinda blah, who cares about accessing it.

I tend to agree, I think it is wrong to blame feature for game that fail to provide anything for players to do. Take SWTOR, I doubt anyone who has played it would play its faulure on group finders or instances, the game was sold on the premise of an epic story, but depending on how many classes you're willing to play you only get about a months worth of content out of the game at best. 

Originally posted by lunarwitch00

lol

 

make something harder people will complain

 ...

It isn't about easy or hard. The "addiction" or desire to keep playing comes from the proper rate of reward. The hope or anticipation of reward must be maintained. This is what really matters. The "magnitude", number, and method of rewards are determined by the "difficulty" of the game.

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 

The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

 

 

So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

 

The same majority aren't looking for a game to play for 6 months to a year. They want to play for a month tops, beat it and move on. They approach it the same they would a single player game. It is a box price to give them a couple weeks entertainment until the next thing pops up.

 

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

@Kyleran

I would say the majority do like those features.  However they leave likely because they find the gameplay itself a tad dull and repetitive.

All those things do is help you access the content, if the content itself is kinda blah, who cares about accessing it.

I tend to agree, I think it is wrong to blame feature for game that fail to provide anything for players to do. Take SWTOR, I doubt anyone who has played it would play its faulure on group finders or instances, the game was sold on the premise of an epic story, but depending on how many classes you're willing to play you only get about a months worth of content out of the game at best. 

They also destroy the world the developers built to begin with.

Dungeon finders, Instances, "Cross Realming", all destroys the social aspect as well as the whole point of having a "world" to explore.

The problem are that the super casuals looking @ the product as only a couple months worth of entertainment & treating them like single-player games.

I'm glad most developers are starting to shun these practices in favor of open-world gameplay :).

Originally posted by SneakyRussian

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 

The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

 

 

So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

 

The same majority aren't looking for a game to play for 6 months to a year. They want to play for a month tops, beat it and move on. They approach it the same they would a single player game. It is a box price to give them a couple weeks entertainment until the next thing pops up.

 

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

@Kyleran

I would say the majority do like those features.  However they leave likely because they find the gameplay itself a tad dull and repetitive.

All those things do is help you access the content, if the content itself is kinda blah, who cares about accessing it.

I tend to agree, I think it is wrong to blame feature for game that fail to provide anything for players to do. Take SWTOR, I doubt anyone who has played it would play its faulure on group finders or instances, the game was sold on the premise of an epic story, but depending on how many classes you're willing to play you only get about a months worth of content out of the game at best. 

They also destroy the world the developers built to begin with.

 

Dungeon finders, Instances, "Cross Realming", all destroys the social aspect as well as the whole point of having a "world" to explore.

 

The problem are that the super casuals looking @ the product as only a couple months worth of entertainment & treating them like single-player games.

 

I'm glad most developers are starting to shun these practices in favor of open-world gameplay :).

This is the same arguement as guns are to blame for gun violence. These arguments are specious and overly simplistic. The reality is that these things are tools, if they are used in such away that destroys community that is part of the design and not the tool itself. 

Instances can be a brilliant idea for example. It is the perfect way to provide things like story or player generated content (something that can be a huge social boost), but how one implements an instance, how often they are used, where they are placed, how low or high instance population is set to are all factors that determine if instancing fractures a world or enhances it. 

Originally posted by delete5230

What we need is an old school mmo.  In other words we need an mmo that is hard.

 

 We DON'T need.  Dungeon finders, cross realm nothing,Dynamic events with auto group, story telling that other social people can't get involved,cinematic that pulls players away from the game for 3  minutes when in groups....This stuff is bull crap...Bottom line.

 

We DO need.  A somewhat hard mmo.  One that relays on the guy next to you having a hard time soloing too.  A game that joining a guild means something, and helps the players progress as a team.  Make a friend that you click with?....Add him to your friends list....It's all about survival in a hard world.

 

SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOUR HART POUND, BUT WITH FRIENDS,IT CAN BE DONE.  This is an mmo !....I don't know what you call all this crap we have now.  GuildWars 2 in a nice game.  Well made, tons of features.  BUTT is still a  disappointment as a sociable mmo.  It's too easy, no chatting, no social, no guild or friends dependent.  It's almost hard to call it an mmo depending on how you look at it ( yes and no ).

I for one would like ( my opinion ) An old school mmo with no auto features, yet nice graphics.  An mmo where the developers promise to not ever screw it up and make it easy mode.  A game where developers can concentrate on making the world larger, more exploration, more dungeons and raids . Always working on coding to make the game run better.  What I would like to see ( my opinion ) is the opposite of SWTOR, with its shallow game play yet a bunch of crap cintamatics and cut seens that takes away from grouping and game play.

Okay you're talking about MMO and not MMORPG so Halo with a lot more players will fit into that or a racing game with a lot of players.  Just a game without role playing or maybe you do mean MMORPG, im not sure.

What do you mean by old school mmo? Ultima Online?

What do you mean by hard?  Asian MMOs consider harder to be more grinding.  Or do you mean more dying?  Isn't that like saying, 'I want a game!  The best game!'

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

You arguing this is the most foolish thing in the entire thread.

 

You honestly think that the people out there who approach all games casually are a wholly seperate group from playing iPhone games? How can a personly possibly be that dense in life? Yes report this post for being true.

 

Anyone who thinks markets are that segregated have NO IDEA how the markets work.

Are you suggesting the customer segment which enjoys iPhone games is the same which rarely plays MMORPGs past their first 3 months? Seriously?

The ideal game to come out would have a HUGE world to explore as well as good reason to do so.  Crafting can be the only thing you do in the game if you'd like.

Character skill progression would be very involved and difficult.  Im thinking something similar to Anarchy Online.  Was the best character skill/stat system ever.

PVP would exhist on all servers and (like Origins is planning) if you join a nation, you'd instantly be flagged for pvp.  If you do not join one, you will not be flagged.

The world would allow the player to dictate its goings on and atmosphere through building (crafting), nation wars, conquering and building.

Repopulation has a great idea with the quest system as well so that it's not linear and driven to drive you to the end.  Random quest generator....or whatever they call it....same thing.

To give those that are on the fence between Thempark and sandbox, give them gear that can only be equipped if according to stats....much like AO.

have open dungeons and raids as well as instanced dungeons and raids (if possible....probably would take too much manpower)

Make it ooze sandbox and sprinkle it with a touch of themepark and you've got a great idea.

Hopefully the Repop feels like this...

Playing DF for now and it satisfies my cravings enough.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Quirhid
 

You arguing this is the most foolish thing in the entire thread.

 

You honestly think that the people out there who approach all games casually are a wholly seperate group from playing iPhone games? How can a personly possibly be that dense in life? Yes report this post for being true.

 

Anyone who thinks markets are that segregated have NO IDEA how the markets work.

Are you suggesting the customer segment which enjoys iPhone games is the same which rarely plays MMORPGs past their first 3 months? Seriously?

Are you seriously suggesting that those who play MMOs don't play any phone/tablet games and vice/versa. Wake up.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 

The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

 

 

So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

 

The same majority aren't looking for a game to play for 6 months to a year. They want to play for a month tops, beat it and move on. They approach it the same they would a single player game. It is a box price to give them a couple weeks entertainment until the next thing pops up.

 

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

Lately I'm starting to think the number of us who want a long term experience could be counted on 2 hands with a couple of fingers left over.  

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by SneakyRussian

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 

The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

 

 

So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

 

The same majority aren't looking for a game to play for 6 months to a year. They want to play for a month tops, beat it and move on. They approach it the same they would a single player game. It is a box price to give them a couple weeks entertainment until the next thing pops up.

 

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

@Kyleran

I would say the majority do like those features.  However they leave likely because they find the gameplay itself a tad dull and repetitive.

All those things do is help you access the content, if the content itself is kinda blah, who cares about accessing it.

I tend to agree, I think it is wrong to blame feature for game that fail to provide anything for players to do. Take SWTOR, I doubt anyone who has played it would play its faulure on group finders or instances, the game was sold on the premise of an epic story, but depending on how many classes you're willing to play you only get about a months worth of content out of the game at best. 

They also destroy the world the developers built to begin with.

 

Dungeon finders, Instances, "Cross Realming", all destroys the social aspect as well as the whole point of having a "world" to explore.

 

The problem are that the super casuals looking @ the product as only a couple months worth of entertainment & treating them like single-player games.

 

I'm glad most developers are starting to shun these practices in favor of open-world gameplay :).

This is the same arguement as guns are to blame for gun violence. These arguments are specious and overly simplistic. The reality is that these things are tools, if they are used in such away that destroys community that is part of the design and not the tool itself. 

Instances can be a brilliant idea for example. It is the perfect way to provide things like story or player generated content (something that can be a huge social boost), but how one implements an instance, how often they are used, where they are placed, how low or high instance population is set to are all factors that determine if instancing fractures a world or enhances it. 

In a real MMORPG players create his own stories in a seamless world with unlimited potential, unlike instances, that limit and pigeonhole ur experience. the instanced player generate are nothing but a excuse of lazy devs and armchairs man to dumb down the game and please the lowest denominator. 

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

Lately I'm starting to think the number of us who want a long term experience could be counted on 2 hands with a couple of fingers left over.  

 

Yeh. I would much rather play a game for a little while, then move on. And may be come back to visit later.  With today's technology, you can play with the SAME group of friends (i.e. community) over multiple games. There is no need to confine oneself to ONE game.

Originally posted by TsaboHavoc

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by SneakyRussian

Originally posted by Leoghan

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 

The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

 

 

So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

 

The same majority aren't looking for a game to play for 6 months to a year. They want to play for a month tops, beat it and move on. They approach it the same they would a single player game. It is a box price to give them a couple weeks entertainment until the next thing pops up.

 

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

@Kyleran

I would say the majority do like those features.  However they leave likely because they find the gameplay itself a tad dull and repetitive.

All those things do is help you access the content, if the content itself is kinda blah, who cares about accessing it.

I tend to agree, I think it is wrong to blame feature for game that fail to provide anything for players to do. Take SWTOR, I doubt anyone who has played it would play its faulure on group finders or instances, the game was sold on the premise of an epic story, but depending on how many classes you're willing to play you only get about a months worth of content out of the game at best. 

They also destroy the world the developers built to begin with.

 

Dungeon finders, Instances, "Cross Realming", all destroys the social aspect as well as the whole point of having a "world" to explore.

 

The problem are that the super casuals looking @ the product as only a couple months worth of entertainment & treating them like single-player games.

 

I'm glad most developers are starting to shun these practices in favor of open-world gameplay :).

This is the same arguement as guns are to blame for gun violence. These arguments are specious and overly simplistic. The reality is that these things are tools, if they are used in such away that destroys community that is part of the design and not the tool itself. 

Instances can be a brilliant idea for example. It is the perfect way to provide things like story or player generated content (something that can be a huge social boost), but how one implements an instance, how often they are used, where they are placed, how low or high instance population is set to are all factors that determine if instancing fractures a world or enhances it. 

In a real MMORPG players create his own stories in a seamless world with unlimited potential, unlike instances, that limit and pigeonhole ur experience. the instanced player generate are nothing but a excuse of lazy devs and armchairs man to dumb down the game and please the lowest denominator. 

This would suggest then that there is only one way to create an MMORPG, the problem with that mentality is that then games like WoW win as the one way because they've been most successful. Rather than thumping doctrine like a religious zealot, why don't we broaden the parameters. In fact the original NWN had one of the most dedicated communities and was built on user generated content, but hey clearly I must be a moron because I don't follow a doctrine that condems everything new. 

Originally posted by SneakyRussian

 

Dungeon finders, Instances, "Cross Realming", all destroys the social aspect as well as the whole point of having a "world" to explore.

And

1) social aspect is not why i play games.

2) cross realming actually HELP .. so i am not confine to the server when i play with others. That makes my social group BIGGER, not smaller.

3) Same for real id friend list. In fact, the best is to have cross GAME community like battle.net id. I can call up my friend even if i am in WOW, and he is playing SC2. Technologies help not to limit your community to a single game, not to mention a single server. It is a good thing.

Originally posted by Leoghan

This would suggest then that there is only one way to create an MMORPG, the problem with that mentality is that then games like WoW win as the one way because they've been most successful. Rather than thumping doctrine like a religious zealot, why don't we broaden the parameters. In fact the original NWN had one of the most dedicated communities and was built on user generated content, but hey clearly I must be a moron because I don't follow a doctrine that condems everything new. 

Your confusing the original NWN with the Bioware remake. The original NWN was a pay per hour (then later less) MMORPG that ran from 1991 to 1997 on AOL. Considered by many to be the first graphical MMORPG (considering it was just sprite graphics though)

Originally posted by OberanMiM

Originally posted by Leoghan

This would suggest then that there is only one way to create an MMORPG, the problem with that mentality is that then games like WoW win as the one way because they've been most successful. Rather than thumping doctrine like a religious zealot, why don't we broaden the parameters. In fact the original NWN had one of the most dedicated communities and was built on user generated content, but hey clearly I must be a moron because I don't follow a doctrine that condems everything new. 

 

Your confusing the original NWN with the Bioware remake. The original NWN was a pay per hour (then later less) MMORPG that ran from 1991 to 1997 on AOL. Considered by many to be the first graphical MMORPG (considering it was just sprite graphics though)

You are correct I did confuse the two, or rather forgot about the AOL one. Biowares version depending on the on players to create the world in there persistant worlds. 

I will love the shit out of the first AAA sandbox MMO to get PvP and PvE right.

So far, I haven't seen a single sandbox do either of them right.

Which is fine, haven't seen a themepark come close either.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

That is the true majority of the game market and it is why smart phone games have been so successful. They can buy one cheap get a couple hours entertainment and move onto the next one. Those of us who want a title we love so much that we want to stay with it for years are the small minority.

Lately I'm starting to think the number of us who want a long term experience could be counted on 2 hands with a couple of fingers left over.  

 

Yeh. I would much rather play a game for a little while, then move on. And may be come back to visit later.  With today's technology, you can play with the SAME group of friends (i.e. community) over multiple games. There is no need to confine oneself to ONE game.

 

 

It has nothing to do with the people, it has to do with the game and the world within. Certain games occasionally nail it and you just want to be a part of that game for a long long time. Unfortunately, not many MMOs nail it.

If you do look at something like XFire, you tend to see that certain games, many of which are years and years old, are continually in the top group despite how many new games are constantly released. A new game will spike up on the list and then vanish off down into the bottom of the charts a month later but those certain games will keep on going.

Those are games that from a gamer standpoint are made right. From a business standpoint they aren't necessarily made right because outside of something like WoW, they can't keep profitting off ot it for all that time. Usually it is stand alone games where they got $50 up front and the player just got 5-10 years of enjoyment out of it. That is why certain companies learned to keep releasing a new version of their franchise over and over, like Halo and CoD, to try and keep profitting off those people who enjoy the title so much. Steam is another source but the problem there is you have to play Valve games on steam and don't have to play many of the others there so the chart is very skewed in favor of Valve, however you'll still often see quality older games beat out lots of newer ones.

XFire:

1: LoL - 2009

2. CoD 4 - 2007

3. WoW - 2004

4. CoD 2 - 2005

5. GW2 - 2012

6. Borderlands 2 - 2012

7. Diablo 3 - 2012

8. BF 3 - 2012

9. WoT - 2010

10. Minecraft - depends on how you look at it because it was release in alpha mode allowing people to play so 2009/2010 ish

11. GTA: San Andreas - 2005

12. Dota 2 - 2012

13. Fifa 3 - 2012

14. CoD MW3 - 2011

15. SC2 - 2010

16. SW: tOR - 2012

17. MoH-AA - 2002

18. Aion - 2009

19. TF2 - 2007

20. CS:Go - 2012

So in the top 20 games on XFire, the oldest is from 2002. Only 8 are from this year and this year is almost over.

Give me a game I feel like playing for 5 to 8 years because it is so good anyday over one I'm bored of in a week. I like to get value for my money.