Originally posted by Draemos

it's actually the engine.  The modability of the UI, the smoothness of the gameplay, the responsiveness of the combat system, the flexibility and crispness of game AI and design systems, the arts styles way of maintaining a somewhat modern look.  WoW has went through several content droughts.

And the fact that the support is actually reasonability responsive and the fact that the dev staff do listen and take polled opinions seriously (maybe a bit too much in some case).

Not just WoW, majority of the game that Blizzard made has been a hit. It is the company, not the game the won.

WoW itself is getting old, and it is natural for things to wither and die. However I got a feeling that whatever is coming up next (Titan) probably won't fail either because of their practice of doing things the right way - as long as they can maintaina nd improve on that, that is.

Originally posted by eddieg50

Originally posted by Shadoed

I see chat every day, i am in a guild that asks for 16yo and over with most of our guild being 20's & 30's which can be vouched for having met a few myself and i can tell you now that i have never seen an 8-17yo drink like the guys from Norway.

As for one of your other notes there, age is no measure of maturity in any way what so ever, so we can scratch that before we even start.

Smack talk the gameplay all you like, although why people feel the need to try and prove to themselves so hard that this game is so bad still amazes me, but the subscription alone makes this a much less attractive prospect for younger players than say, GW2 for example.

I would still love to see your 'proof' or 'facts' behind your statements, but as with everyone else that drops the same old rhetoric into any and all posts on this forum i don't expect that there is any to be had.

   Kind of sensitive LOL,  Nothing wrong with being a fanboy as long as you show some objectivity and you are not showing very much. That is great that you are in a guild that wants players older than 16 they are few and far between. Let me ask you a question, how old are you?   It does not take a wizard to figure out who on wow is 12 and who is 35, it just takes common sense.  If you think that WOW came out with a Panda expansion to attract 25 yr olds and up then you need to rethink your comments. Like I said great game for young players and teens- simple easy content, colorfull graphics like a cartoon, super easy combat, what is not to love if you are 12.  I am not talking smack just making honest observations

Not so much sensitive, you just get a little tired of reading the same regurgitated lines over and over again regardless of what the thread is actually about and with never anything but 'my next door neighbour said' to back it up.

If you really need to know, i am a 42 year old father of 5 (kids in teens to 20's) and i also have a brother of 39 who plays as well as a father of 62 who plays as well. I have already said that my guild is for over 16's only and the main membership is in their 20's and 30's who i keep in touch with either in person or over various social network sources. So in 'my' experience the game has a mature in age average user base.

As for the 'Panda' expansion, well that has to do with both pandering (<<<see what i did there) to the asian market a little as well as riding on the back of the disney success, but if you think that Disney only makes films to appeal to children these days then you may need to rethink some of your comments.

I am not arguing that the content is hard, or the graphics are lifelike or even that the combat is so complex that it takes a rocket scientist to formulate a rotation, but i am saying that this does not make the game a child only zone because if that was the case then there would be hardly any 'adult' players in the MMO market at all and i don't thnk you are claiming that now are you?

The thing to remember after all is that these things, WoW or otherwise are there to entertain people pure and simple and no matter what your age if you enjoy that entertainment then you will continue to play, watch or take part in it.

As for objectivity, you are seriously going to call me on that?

Hm this is funny.

Everyone claims only kids play WoW but i play since release and in every guild i have been in, the majority of the players were from 25 to 50 yy old, many married with other guild members and the few kids that actually played it were quite well behaved, and usually were the children of some of the players in said guild.

Now granted, i probably only met like an 1% of the playerbase in my lifetime, but so has everyone else so my view is as valid as everyone else so.... now i claim only grown ups play WoW, cause in my chats it´s full of nice people.

Generalizing ftw.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Oh the kids okay wow thing us nonsense yeah

Teenage boys want to play at wannabe gangsters in grand theft auto or whatever, they don't want to play a nerd game like gw2 or wow, not enough t&a or gratuitous violence.

Best argument to date :)

Or how about because they made a game that was Hyper-Marketable???

How easy is it to tell your friends your playing "Everquest" or Age of Conan"?? What about, O hey im playing EQ or Im playing AOC"??

Now say "Hey im going to go play WoW, you know, WORLD OF WARCRAFT! It rolls off the tounge and although it sounds nerdy, its nothing overly specific to fantasy, its just saying there is a World of War and you get to craft that war by your actions.

Blizzard made a great creative and fun loving world that the whole family could enjoy, and sorry you guys but WoW WAS GOOD when it came out.

Originally posted by kxmode

Originally posted by Jackdog

NO MMORPG is hard

Have you ever played EVE Online or Anarchy Online?

played Anarchy Online at release and off and on afterwards for a couple of years. Eve off and on since beta. I don't remember AO requiring any real amount of skill but I loved it's skill system. EvE was just a huge time sink once I got the hang of playing the market. The original SWG had a good dodge system for it's melee toons that used a bit of skil as do many classes in otehr MMO's but noting like what a good FPS requires. Time sinks is the big thing in most MMO's, just large investments of time repeating the same actions over and over. Don't get me wrong I love my MMORPG's but what I enjoy about them is the exploration and socializing with my guildies on vent and mumbles

When I think of computer games requiring skill and strategy I think of FPS style games that need good reflexes and the old Avalon Hill War and stragey games. At least in GW2 you can't just stand in one spot and survive...well maybe Guardian you can. There may be a couple other MMO's I have not played where that applies also. But even they do not require the motor skills of a good multiplayer FPS

mainly I was referring to as a false claim of skill in MMO's is  the concept of raiding. I have raided in EQ2, LoTRO, and SWToR and all I have ever seen is the same old mobs that do the same old thing week in and week out. Once you know the strategy of how to do the raid it is just a matter of repeating that over and over. No skill required, just a bit of self discipline, follow the raid leaders directions, and hope the great god of the random number generator smiles on you

Originally posted by Shadoed

Originally posted by eddieg50

Originally posted by Shadoed

I see chat every day, i am in a guild that asks for 16yo and over with most of our guild being 20's & 30's which can be vouched for having met a few myself and i can tell you now that i have never seen an 8-17yo drink like the guys from Norway.

As for one of your other notes there, age is no measure of maturity in any way what so ever, so we can scratch that before we even start.

Smack talk the gameplay all you like, although why people feel the need to try and prove to themselves so hard that this game is so bad still amazes me, but the subscription alone makes this a much less attractive prospect for younger players than say, GW2 for example.

I would still love to see your 'proof' or 'facts' behind your statements, but as with everyone else that drops the same old rhetoric into any and all posts on this forum i don't expect that there is any to be had.

   Kind of sensitive LOL,  Nothing wrong with being a fanboy as long as you show some objectivity and you are not showing very much. That is great that you are in a guild that wants players older than 16 they are few and far between. Let me ask you a question, how old are you?   It does not take a wizard to figure out who on wow is 12 and who is 35, it just takes common sense.  If you think that WOW came out with a Panda expansion to attract 25 yr olds and up then you need to rethink your comments. Like I said great game for young players and teens- simple easy content, colorfull graphics like a cartoon, super easy combat, what is not to love if you are 12.  I am not talking smack just making honest observations

Not so much sensitive, you just get a little tired of reading the same regurgitated lines over and over again regardless of what the thread is actually about and with never anything but 'my next door neighbour said' to back it up.

If you really need to know, i am a 42 year old father of 5 (kids in teens to 20's) and i also have a brother of 39 who plays as well as a father of 62 who plays as well. I have already said that my guild is for over 16's only and the main membership is in their 20's and 30's who i keep in touch with either in person or over various social network sources. So in 'my' experience the game has a mature in age average user base.

As for the 'Panda' expansion, well that has to do with both pandering (<<

I am not arguing that the content is hard, or the graphics are lifelike or even that the combat is so complex that it takes a rocket scientist to formulate a rotation, but i am saying that this does not make the game a child only zone because if that was the case then there would be hardly any 'adult' players in the MMO market at all and i don't thnk you are claiming that now are you?

The thing to remember after all is that these things, WoW or otherwise are there to entertain people pure and simple and no matter what your age if you enjoy that entertainment then you will continue to play, watch or take part in it.

As for objectivity, you are seriously going to call me on that?

   The reason why you keep reading these regurgitated lines is many people have played WOW and came to the same conclusion I have, it is  a game that is very good at attracting younger gamers. Does this mean that a 42 yr old may want to play it? YES especially if he has teens who play, it is a great way to bond with your kid. It is unlikely a younger player is going to be attracted to a game like Eve, or TSW or fallen Earth or an older game like Anarchy online , Ryzom or even games like Vanguard where Diplomacy or the crafting system is to much for their instant grat brain.

     Blizzard had great strategy, "lets attract younger players, they have a lot more spare time to play, they will either pay for a sub themselves or get money  from their parents"  And that is why they have 11 million players now.

     Hey I perfectly understand, what person over the age of 25 would want to admit to playing WOW especially after they listen to world chat.  I played WOW and after a little while I felt kind of embarrised by it, so I can certainly understand

Originally posted by IfrianMMO

Hm this is funny.

Everyone claims only kids play WoW but i play since release and in every guild i have been in, the majority of the players were from 25 to 50 yy old, many married with other guild members and the few kids that actually played it were quite well behaved, and usually were the children of some of the players in said guild.

Now granted, i probably only met like an 1% of the playerbase in my lifetime, but so has everyone else so my view is as valid as everyone else so.... now i claim only grown ups play WoW, cause in my chats it´s full of nice people.

Generalizing ftw.

well, when WoW first came out quite a few of the players were fairly young..  they got older, of course there are still young players joining the game, but i don't think WoW is the only game to have young players, or rude ones for that matter. My own experience is that i have encountered more friendly people in WoW than not. But i can't really say i've played any game that had a predominantly young/rude etc playerbase..  though i havent played all the games out there yet

Originally posted by IfrianMMO

Hm this is funny.

Everyone claims only kids play WoW but i play since release and in every guild i have been in, the majority of the players were from 25 to 50 yy old, many married with other guild members and the few kids that actually played it were quite well behaved, and usually were the children of some of the players in said guild.

Now granted, i probably only met like an 1% of the playerbase in my lifetime, but so has everyone else so my view is as valid as everyone else so.... now i claim only grown ups play WoW, cause in my chats it´s full of nice people.

Generalizing ftw.

People tend to sterotype that the average player is an immare high schooler who has yet to grow into their balls because of all the immature conduct they see rampant when in fact all these "kiddo" behavior is really done by adults.  Internet brings uninhiberation in people, people are real brave over the internet due to lack of any real confrontation when in the real world they worold they would never do that.

In short people are real asses in general and immaturity runs rampant even in the adult crowd.  Look at EVE, you had the most aholes, immaturity(seen countless high schooler smack talking), and rude people there and yet by far that is prolly the most adult crowd of all the MMOs.

Originally posted by eddieg50

    And that is why they have 11 million players now.

 

 

heh looking at the results of MoM I  bet they don't have half of that now even counting the Chinese players

Content is nice. Being able to access that content is priceless. Many games have "endless" content for the rate casuals consume the content but most of them fail at the accessibility or hope of accessibility. There are lots of reasons for this, population levels, barrier to entry for the content (stay with the herd or be left behind till the next expansion is a common problem), grind time to advance, among other issues. Really though, WoW gets a lot of things right. It isn't just the content but the entire package.

Obviously the game is not for everyone and getting the package correct the way WoW does is not easy or we'd see more successes. Blizzard is generally good at mass appeal; it is what they do so it is understandable that WoW is the biggest MMO.

Originally posted by eddieg50

 

   The reason why you keep reading these regurgitated lines is many people have played WOW and came to the same conclusion I have, it is  a game that is very good at attracting younger gamers. Does this mean that a 42 yr old may want to play it? YES especially if he has teens who play, it is a great way to bond with your kid. It is unlikely a younger player is going to be attracted to a game like Eve, or TSW or fallen Earth or an older game like Anarchy online , Ryzom or even games like Vanguard where Diplomacy or the crafting system is to much for their instant grat brain.

     Blizzard had great strategy, "lets attract younger players, they have a lot more spare time to play, they will either pay for a sub themselves or get money  from their parents"  And that is why they have 11 million players now.

     Hey I perfectly understand, what person over the age of 25 would want to admit to playing WOW especially after they listen to world chat.  I played WOW and after a little while I felt kind of embarrised by it, so I can certainly understand

 

Oh, i am sorry, i thought we were actually having a grown up exchange of opinions rather than a junior psychology lesson and a 101 in sterotyping?

Sorry to skew your vision, but i am a 42 year old man who plays the game for his own entertainment and i bond with my kids the old fashioned way, you know, actually talking to them and spending time with them, but that's just me.

I guess that i am just one of those people that is secure enough in his own maturity to not let myself become embarrassed by a few other people acting up and if i started to worry about what other people thought about my personal choices at my age i would never get anything done, but i also understand that there are people who do put a lot of stock in what others think of them and feel much better when they melt into the crowd and i'm sure that is fine too :).

Originally posted by gexz7
Fact in the USA we have no Zoos with Pandas and when we do, we borrow them from one country, China.  Second Pandas are mythical and spiritual to the Chinese people and have been for over two million years.  Many gold farming companies are in China, what better way to keep this group entertained then to insert cultural and historical references?  Therefore, the next time you call us racists maybe you ought to evaluate the true context of racism.  Its not racist to promote a belief of a people and according to your theory since here in America we have racists or hate groups we should have a ton of movies and games with Martin King Luther or Malcolm X.  True story we have none but we do have folks who are racists, racism never promotes a happy feeling in anything certainly not a game. 

Panda as referred to by the Chinese means large bearcat, 

My friend you are insane for thinking that somehow this expansion is racist, maybe you are the racist. Kung Fu Panda probably did badly in China because it was comical, desecrated a fighting tradition and attempted to Americanize a cultural reference adored by its people, and was a Childs movie that at 2% still was viewed by 20 million Chinese people!

well done... applause

Originally posted by Shadoed

Originally posted by eddieg50

 

   The reason why you keep reading these regurgitated lines is many people have played WOW and came to the same conclusion I have, it is  a game that is very good at attracting younger gamers. Does this mean that a 42 yr old may want to play it? YES especially if he has teens who play, it is a great way to bond with your kid. It is unlikely a younger player is going to be attracted to a game like Eve, or TSW or fallen Earth or an older game like Anarchy online , Ryzom or even games like Vanguard where Diplomacy or the crafting system is to much for their instant grat brain.

     Blizzard had great strategy, "lets attract younger players, they have a lot more spare time to play, they will either pay for a sub themselves or get money  from their parents"  And that is why they have 11 million players now.

     Hey I perfectly understand, what person over the age of 25 would want to admit to playing WOW especially after they listen to world chat.  I played WOW and after a little while I felt kind of embarrised by it, so I can certainly understand

 

Oh, i am sorry, i thought we were actually having a grown up exchange of opinions rather than a junior psychology lesson and a 101 in sterotyping?

Sorry to skew your vision, but i am a 42 year old man who plays the game for his own entertainment and i bond with my kids the old fashioned way, you know, actually talking to them and spending time with them, but that's just me.

I guess that i am just one of those people that is secure enough in his own maturity to not let myself become embarrassed by a few other people acting up and if i started to worry about what other people thought about my personal choices at my age i would never get anything done, but i also understand that there are people who do put a lot of stock in what others think of them and feel much better when they melt into the crowd and i'm sure that is fine too :).

  You told me your age in another post, I believe you  LOL. It looks like I hit a nerve there, dont worry just having some fun. People take these posts on mmorpg.com way to seriously.  Yes I still believe based on my and others experiences that WOW attracts and does a good job of keeping a younger population and that adults do play and apparantly have fun also, but Panda's really , I can see the brain trust at Blizzard thinking "we have the US , how can we get young Asians to play WOW------Alltogether now   PANDA'S"

??Originally posted by gexz7
Fact in the USA we have no Zoos with Pandas and when we do, we borrow them from one country, China. Second Pandas are mythical and spiritual to the Chinese people and have been for over two million years. 

WTF?

Are you Chinese? If not please don't make up shit, because that my friend is pretty racist.

I've been Chinese for the last 35 years and I've never heard of pandas being "mythical" to us.

Dragon is mythical to us. Chinese are "Sons and Daughters of the Dragons".

Panda is merely an animal that eats our bamboo.

played wow till january ,i quit after what 7 years or so ,i just wwhen to gw2 .initial thaught .more of the same!boy was i wrong!

phi brain puzzle alone will keep you entertained for a while!like the little guy first is a trainers phi brain puzzle to give you an idea of what to expect!then you get a bit harder phi brain puzzle in the reactor area you basicly find the matrix key then charge it then go in the locked area .you die you have to redo the wholle mess to go in again!this is at level 15 ish!

i tested other starting zone surprisingly it looks like the other zone are harder to find those phi brain puzzle but make no mistake they are there .and if there is an end game in this game it is or will be in this form .why?the paying of hight is a huge thing i dont mean a small step some place you dont see the actual path  you have to take to go down .but you know there is one cause you see a path on the other side.this is the training area!but at end game?i suspect these will or are impossible to find . i think i found one but its a vine so twisted and all i will have to wrap my mind on the concept tried it a few time but the effect of turning and jumping on a vine got me dizzy ,i had to rest lol!never met such good fun and challenge in games!there is a vine bridge,that bridge as  subtle air flow on it and if you dont pay attention you will die.when you see it just stay there for 2 minute count how many die trying to cross that .the mechanic is actually simple but very effective at keeping you at bay and if arenanet really push these phi brain puzzle like changing them into raid pvp stylle content ?outch outch outch.the reactor is full of ice golem to go up ,if you were to have foe at the top in pvp and allie at bottom both needing to reach each others start area ,this could end up in mayhem very quick!that is one exemple among the multitude.ya you guessed it gw2 is very very fun!and contrary to wow fairly inexxpensive

I will admit I did play WoW.  I also did enjoy playing the game for a little while. 

I think WoW's success comes from one major factor that previous MMO's did not capture.

WoW grabbed the young generation with their cartoon like graphics and their rewarding for minimal effort challenges.  Little kids were drawn in to play the game because they loved the cartoon graphics the game offered,

Now once the children played, they got hooked even more because they were good at the game.  They could easily pick up a glowing item on the ground, turn it in and be rewarded with a shiny new sword!  (Yes there were more difficult quests... but not really, you get rewarded for almost nothing). 

Little kids got lured into the MMO with the graphics and hooked because they felt like they were accomplishing something.  Now they start telling their friends and they can all get together and play with each other EVEN AT HOME !!! 

As with many MMO, they also captured the older generation who had been playing MMO's but was looking for a change. 

So congratulations to Blizzard for that.

However, there were some negative side effects.  This generation got older and is now the market for modern MMOs.  These children, now young adults are still addicted to this feel good receive rewards for doing nothing type games.  (Some of these players are now finally seeking more of a challenge but it cannot be found anywhere)  Every game tries to clone EQ2 and WoW.  It draws in many MMOers with hopes of the finding the next great MMO, but all are upset to see the clones.

WoW's succeeds still because many people figure they might as well play the real thing and not the knock-off version.

Now people like me and the older generation (not necessarily older but the generation who were fortunate enough to experience the real fun in previous MMO's prior to WoW)  are unable to find a game that brings back the good memories we all had in the late 90s and early 2000s prior to the children MMO's that are no being produced.

All current MMO's want to continue and build on WoW's success so they try to copy 98% of the game, and add one little 2% twist to their version.  They hope to capture this WoW generation and then continue by capturing the NEW children that will be the next generation of MMO's.  However, as I stated before nobody is playing the knock off versions, they are playing the real thing.

And the players who started MMO's are left waiting for the next MMO that will implement our preferences, this generations preferences, and the next generations preferences... which I do not see in the near future.

However, for me I do not see a good MMO that I really want to play, so I will continue to try these PvP MMO hoping to have that balance of risk vs reward restored once again until I find that MMO that stops promoting the foodstamp/welfare system WoW offers.

[mod edit]

Gay...

STOP BUYING WORLD OF WELFARE AND ALL OF ITS CLONES!!!