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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How big is the permadeath ultra hate is? PART 2

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73 posts found
  Vynt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/19/04
Posts: 596

9/30/12 2:20:04 PM#21

I'm not against perma death. I just won't play them. I love a harsh death penalty, but perma is a bit much for me. I really enjoy progression in an MMO. A long drawn out game, customizing my character, growing in power and skill.

Often perma death games, any progression is extremely fast and practically meaningless, to counter the fact you'll lose your character. So remaking your new character and leveling up is quite quick. I find that type of gameplay boring and counter to the type of game I want to play.

  adam_nox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/31/06
Posts: 2051

9/30/12 2:26:48 PM#22
I recommend fixing the title of this topic before trying to convince anyone of anything.
  Beatnik59

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2140

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

9/30/12 5:00:24 PM#23

I think permadeath is a rather boring solution to the problem of making death interesting.

__________________________
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  User Deleted
10/01/12 1:21:08 AM#24
Originally posted by exdeathbr

This thread had a poll to vote and even with this idea being barely permadeath many of the permadeath ultra haters voted on banning this idea, 56%, 24.4% not being the style of permadeath haters I am talking about or aren't even permadeath haters, and 19.5% would not complain about it.

The idea was to see if even with this idea that was barely parmadeath people would complain saying it should not be developed and stuff like that. The poll proved that yes, they would complain.

You have to realize that

 

1) People who instantly (with real hatred, I mean real HATE, like they want the idea to actually cease to exist and get angry at the concept) say no to the idea of permadeath, no matter how it's implemented, are morons.

2) People don't care what a game's concepts or features have: they care that it is fun.

3) Most people have the brain power of nothing more than a brain stem, and are thus incapable of understanding that permadeath doesn't necessarily mean WoW + Permadeath. These types read "permadeath", ignore all other text, and imagine WoW with Permadeath, and then get angry/belligerent in their reply.

4) People don't know what they want, and have no idea what would be fun until they actually try it.

 

But most of all...

5) The people here, especially the vocal/angry ones, are in the minority. The majority of the populous don't care or even know what "permadeath" is and don't care if the game has it: they care if the game is FUN or not. They care if the game is GOOD or not. The care if the design has DEPTH and is well designed or not. No one here is a good representative of "most people" and instead can only speak to their niche group. Most people don't post on forums.

If you're interested in that last line, try looking up Battlefield Online (I think that was the game?) where they added in a cash shop and got a massive amount of people on forums going full-on-hatred with flooded topics hating hte idea and demanding it to change.

They didn't change it. They kept it. Then they got rich and successful and went on to make a 2nd version of the game. Turns out that vocal angry forum members were <1% of players, and their opinion was worthless in relation to the game's success.

 

Just goes to show...

6) Even if 99% of a popular forum like this votes permadeath as a bad idea, that might not be the truth. 99% of players may love the idea and pay big money because of it. You'll never know until you do it, and do it right.

  Johnie-Marz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 860

10/01/12 1:37:31 AM#25

I have no problem with an "Iron man" server. (As long the server is a choice. PVP, PVE, RP, IM)  

I don't really see many people complaining about permadeath because I don't see many games that have it. DayZ as a mod has it I think.

  BrotherD

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/08
Posts: 52

10/01/12 1:43:26 AM#26

If you want to try permadeath just go try 'Realm of the Mad God' and see if you like it. Personally I don't. You get tired of permadeath pretty fast.

I don't have a problem with servers with permadeath for those that want it. But I think it is a minority which is why hardly any MMO's have it.

Currently playing: AoC, RIFT, Champions Online, DDO, LORTO, STO and Tribes: Ascend
Have Played: TSW, SWG, AO, EVE, WOW, EQ, EQ2, SW:TOR, GW,CoH, DCUO, RotMG, WAR,

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1300

10/01/12 6:58:07 PM#27
Originally posted by Starpower
Originally posted by exdeathbr

Usually when talking about permadeath here, permadeath haters complain alot about permadeath, no matter what pemadeath system another user propose.

 

Nobody here complains about permadeath when brought up. When people dislike a feature they will tell you they don't like it and most likely, avoid the game that has said feature. That's hardly the same as complaining. That's just avoiding something you dislike.

 

People only complain about things they have to deal with in one shape or another. Permadeath isn't one of them. It's one of those things you can easily avoid

What forums have you been on? There are some that deal with it as you suggest, but overall I disagree. Look up any thread on open world PvP and read the complaints. 

Also, you aren't forced to deal with anything. If the game has something you don't like, don't play it. Simple as that. Too bad most don't see it that way.

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1300

10/01/12 6:58:52 PM#28
Originally posted by BrotherD

If you want to try permadeath just go try 'Realm of the Mad God' and see if you like it. Personally I don't. You get tired of permadeath pretty fast.

I don't have a problem with servers with permadeath for those that want it. But I think it is a minority which is why hardly any MMO's have it.

I agree 100%. Not my thing either. Maybe in quick little games or something, but not in an MMO where I want to invest into it.

  dinams

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 1403

10/01/12 7:04:59 PM#29

I would only play such a game if the people died on real life too when they die in-game

why?

because it would stop "I will kill you for lulz"

"It has potential"
-Second most used phrase on existence
"It sucks"
-Most used phrase on existence

  gandales

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 463

10/01/12 7:11:47 PM#30

Ironically, the main problem with permadeath would be those who does not have a life. Can you really kill them?

 

Jokes aside, for permadeath to be bearable you will need to take care of many inequalities between players:

 

1) Time. Those with more time will level faster and kill those who play less.

2) PKs needs to be controlled, meaning that your world should react to PKs by put killers in jail or some price on their heads.

3) No chance of unexpected lags and differential delays depending on client-server distance.

 

If not, I don't think it would be possible to get enough players to justify the feature.

 

 

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3201

"A very special kind of stupidity"

10/02/12 6:57:22 AM#31
Originally posted by Quirhid

I think you are building up an imaginary opposition to your point of view. People just don't care playing permadeath games. There's no hate.

Then it's difficult to explain some of the reactions to the news that World Of Darkness will have a form of permadeath - including your own, if I recall correctly.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344929/World-of-Darkness-will-have-permadeath-per-CCP.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/forums.cfm?ismb=1&threadId=345302

"Posts: 3190 Joined: 1/28/05
Elite Member Quirhid 

Ugh permadeath... say goodbye to PvP because this game will hardly have any. Gank-tastic."

 

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

10/02/12 7:15:06 AM#32
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Quirhid

I think you are building up an imaginary opposition to your point of view. People just don't care playing permadeath games. There's no hate.

Then it's difficult to explain some of the reactions to the news that World Of Darkness will have a form of permadeath - including your own, if I recall correctly.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/344929/World-of-Darkness-will-have-permadeath-per-CCP.html

http://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/forums.cfm?ismb=1&threadId=345302

"Posts: 3190 Joined: 1/28/05
Elite Member Quirhid 

Ugh permadeath... say goodbye to PvP because this game will hardly have any. Gank-tastic."

 

That's ultra hate?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  exdeathbr

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 120

 
OP  10/02/12 10:10:47 AM#33
Originally posted by Halc4

I find it kind of funny how you start off saying "Sometimes they even compare it with the guy that like permadeath system deleting his char (in a normal mmorpg game withouth permadeath) ." then you go on to make your new poll idea where the game is 100% the same, just you essentially are forced to delete your character on one server. So the only difference is that everyone else has to start over if they die too. To me, that's essentially the same thing. You only dislike the idea of deleting your own character on a 'normal' non-permadeath game because everybody else isn't forced into doing it too. Really this is no different than being on a permadeath server with a group of more aggressive players who are less prone to be cautious and more likely to attack you on sight.

 

In the permadeath server the player is not forced to delete if he dies, because he can't do it, his char is automaticaly deleted by the game when a player dies on permadeath server.

Also some ways why pérmadeath server and deleting your char when you die are different things:

Gameplay A: Npcs are attacking your city, you and your friends are defenting it.

You delete your char when you die: All your friends will be able to respawn to help your to defend your city.

Permadeath:People start again when they die and so you would have less reinforcements.

 

Gameplay B: A sandbox game that is like ultima online. You have a friend that is a very good blacksmith.

You delete your char when you die: This blacksmith guy will be able to help people again.

Permadeath: The world will lose a very good blacksmith, this guy will not be able to help you.

 

Originally posted by Halc4

I'm not totally against permadeath games existing, but I still voted no, because you're ignoring the effect having a permadeath server at all would have on the overall game design. Permadeath and non-permadeath gameplay really don't mix all that well in the long run, one has to suffer to make the other interesting. Or maybe you recognize this, and this is why you don't want to just delete your character on a game without permadeath.

I never said anything about how the gameplay would be (other than saying that the game will have one server with permadeath and another without it), if its needed for you just assume that the gameplay will not be changed because of fact the game has permadeath. I mean if that is needed to make the permadeath part exist, we only have this choice (because the other one would mean [as in your vote] having no permadeath server to start it).

 

Originally posted by Halc4

All that aside, the people who don't want any permadeath game to be made ever realize that there's a finite number of resources in the world. There aren't an infinite number of game developers, so for every permadeath game made, essentially one less game of another style isn't made. This is why people often want only games(or movies, or TV shows) they like to be made and want all others to fail so they're less likely to make similar in the future, and more likely to make what said person enjoys. It's actually fairly rampant on these forums... And yeah, it's a rather self-centered view point, but it's rather logical in its own way.

You talk like if almost every game was made with permadeath, and if some permadeath games were good.

 

Originally posted by gandales

Jokes aside, for permadeath to be bearable you will need to take care of many inequalities between players:

 

1) Time. Those with more time will level faster and kill those who play less.

2) PKs needs to be controlled, meaning that your world should react to PKs by put killers in jail or some price on their heads.

3) No chance of unexpected lags and differential delays depending on client-server distance..
 

You are assuming things, I never said this game would have or not pvp .

 

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/02/12 10:12:20 AM#34
WARNING: do not play the drinking game where you take a drink everytime the OP says "permadeath".... you will die.
  Thrennie

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/04
Posts: 107

10/02/12 10:16:43 AM#35
While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.
  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/02/12 10:20:24 AM#36
Originally posted by Thrennie
While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.

The truth of it is the servers would be dead and it would be a drain of resources, that is why.

 

Some people think they want permadeath, but when they've spent 60 hours getting all that they have and then lose it all in an instant, needing to start over... they will quit. It also leads to more boring gameplay. Why would you ever take risks if the result could be losing everything? You wouldn't. You would spend your time leveling slower by killing lower level mobs to make sure you never even come sloe to dying. That will also cause people to get bored and quit.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/02/12 10:23:39 AM#37

I read this thread and your previous thread, and I haven't really seen answers to the questions you should ask regarding any mechanic you are looking to design:

Since this is a consequence or result of player action, what is the fun factor or entertainment value of it for the player?

What is the game issue this is designed to solve?

 

  exdeathbr

Novice Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 120

 
OP  10/02/12 10:25:37 AM#38
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Thrennie
While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.

The truth of it is the servers would be dead and it would be a drain of resources, that is why.

 

Some people think they want permadeath, but when they've spent 60 hours getting all that they have and then lose it all in an instant, needing to start over... they will quit. It also leads to more boring gameplay. Why would you ever take risks if the result could be losing everything? You wouldn't. You would spend your time leveling slower by killing lower level mobs to make sure you never even come sloe to dying. That will also cause people to get bored and quit.

When you play a permadeath game, you already know from the start you can lose everything, when you die. If you can't take it you dont play the game.

If you think you can take it, but after dying for the first time see that you can't, you say to yourself  "sorry but permadeath is too much for me, I will play another game"

The ones that will really play the game will not be angry, because they know from the start the game is like that, and if they are still playing its because they know they can handle it.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11916

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/02/12 10:27:16 AM#39
Originally posted by exdeathbr
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Thrennie
While it's not for me I don't see why they should not create perma death servers alongside RP and PvP/PvE. After all I believe that's what they did with EQ1.

The truth of it is the servers would be dead and it would be a drain of resources, that is why.

 

Some people think they want permadeath, but when they've spent 60 hours getting all that they have and then lose it all in an instant, needing to start over... they will quit. It also leads to more boring gameplay. Why would you ever take risks if the result could be losing everything? You wouldn't. You would spend your time leveling slower by killing lower level mobs to make sure you never even come sloe to dying. That will also cause people to get bored and quit.

When you play a permadeath game, you already know from the start you can lose everything, when you die. If you can't take it you dont play the game.

If you think you can take it, but after dying for the first time see that you can't, you say to yourself  "sorry but permadeath is too much for me, I will play another game"

The ones that will really play the game will not be angry, because they know from the start the game is like that, and if they are still playing its because they know they can handle it.

Be sure to build for that size audience.

  erictlewis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 3058

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

10/02/12 10:30:10 AM#40

I read the main thread and had to go what the heck.  I finially figured out what he meant but honestly if you want folks to participate in your thread, learn to write English, or get a grammer/spell checker op.  I don't normally complain but heck that entire thread sentance did not even make since.

As far as permadeath, I already play that game, it is called life and one day bam.  No thanks don't need it in games I play to escape reality.

 

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