It probably has little to no impact on player interaction. In fact, I have less people on my blacklist cause I don't have to block players that spam they are selling something. Generally there is an alternate channel for these games that have Auction House Systems in them anyway for those of you that like to chat about pricing and such. The point here is that you're idea is not very solid as there really isn't any social aspect in the actual trading process aside from "wts/b" spam, "i want to buy that from you" or "can you bring the price down?"

It can't kill the social community if the community doesn't really use it as a prime social aspect of the game.

Originally posted by defector1968

can u plz stop saying that the SWG and SWTOR and other similar games have AH?

since the prices are fixed, arent AHs. Cuz simply they dont have auction ability

But they act in many ways like an auction house.

When you go to an auction there is a starting amound and then you bid, each person bidding increases that amount.

That is what happens in these MMO's.  The only difference is the seller (not the game) has arbitrarily chosen an upper limit. 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by defector1968

can u plz stop saying that the SWG and SWTOR and other similar games have AH?

since the prices are fixed, arent AHs. Cuz simply they dont have auction ability

But they act in many ways like an auction house.

When you go to an auction there is a starting amound and then you bid, each person bidding increases that amount.

That is what happens in these MMO's.  The only difference is the seller (not the game) has arbitrarily chosen an upper limit. 

The AH is a plus in a bazaar

Originally posted by Leoghan

Now bear with me here, my memories of SWG are muddled given that it had oh so many forms over its lifetime and I poked my head in for most of them. 

If I recally SWG launched with a terminal system that allowed players to place items for sale on a sort of aution house style. You could search for items you wanted and you had to travel to a terminal in the city it was put up for sale at to retireve the purchased item.

It also allowed crafters to place vendors in their homes/buildings to sell good, these vendors could even be searched via the ingame map and their locations were clearly indicated by way points. 

At one point I know that SWG even allowed you to search for items sold at player vendors by using the auction house terminals, you still had to travel to the vendor's shop, but you could one search at one terminal to find what you were looking for and get a waypoint to the shop. 

Personally I thought the above was the best system. It allowed me to form relationships with crafters, by going to their shops seeing (usually on display or through vendor NPC text prompts) what they could craft and figuring out if these items, their quality and such fit my needs. 

It probably will never be seen in a game again because it requires many things that games are not doing. It requires crafted items to be as good or better than drops. It requires Housing (something many games seem to be getting away from) and it requires a crafting system that is highly customizable. You see the main reason to develop a relationship with the crafter in a game like SWG was because your skills were often such that you needed gear was custom made to fit them, and to add to that all of the clothing/armor was highly customizable for colors, so you could specify the exact colors you wanted items to be. 

My point is that in SWG the auction house system actually severed to deepen community ties rather than isolate the community. I think the problem is not the convenience, but rather that design of the convenience. 

Well, SWG sort of had the best of both worlds: it had  multi-planet bazaar terminals that allowed you search for the things you needed/wanted and buy/sell lower priced "convenience items". Also could search galaxy wide for stuff people had on listed vendors.

Crafter vendors were needed to sell items over the max value allowed on the bazaar terminals, but the items on the vendor tenrminals were searchable galaxy wide, but you had to go to the actual crafter's shop to make the purchases.

All in all it was a good system, allowing for "convenience shopping" for the cheap stuff, and having the chance to meet the crafter or visit his shop (at least) to get the more important items.

Originally posted by Myrdynn

I have long been thinking of posting this, finally getting a little time to do so.  While playing some games recently, TSW, GW2, SWtor, TERA, etc over the last year, it has dawned on me that the biggest community killer is the Auction House.  Recently games (TSW and GW2) launched without a proper AH, and until they were put in place, people actually talked in the channels, making deals, helping people, selling mats etc.  I actually made a couple acquaintances that were heavy crafters, who just were after all the supplies they could get their hands on, and I was willing to help em out.  It was a good relationship.  Then the AH was fixed, and since then I havent even talked to a single person in game.  Before you say, well I should try making friends, there really is nothing in either TSW or GW2 that having friends makes beneficial.  I dont need them to do anything in game, I dont need them to craft anything for me, etc.

Now long ago, the games we played didnt have Auction Houses, and they were very strong communities.  Everyone on a server knew that if you wanted a Ubersword of Giant Slaying, that BobJohnson was the one that could craft it the best, or you could at least ask around and see if someone could hook you up.  This built community, numerous times, a conversation would go something like.  Hey I hear you can make me "item X', sure I can, but the mats are really tough to come by.  But why dont we get a group together and go out on a hunting party to find them.  You get your mats, you help me skill up one of my crafting skills, its a win/win.  Friendships were formed, alliances were forged, etc.

Unfortunately with the have it all now crowd that play MMO's Auction Houses are an evil necessity.  You collect your mats, sell them on the AH for X currency, then search for the item you want and bam, you got it, very short time, very EZ.  But during this time, you have no interaction with another player whatsoever, hell you dont even know who made you your item.  Items used to be imprinted with crafters as well, so that when someone says hey where did you get that sword you could inspect it and it would say made by "player X".

Anyways, I know I am going to likely be in the minority, but its something I have been thinking of for some time.  I think a happy medium might be a game where an Auction House isnt really an AH, but a Job listing, for example you want "Sword X" you search the AH database of "who" can craft it, and it will give you a list with (online/offline) status's, where you then actually need to interact with a player, It might not be all that much different but at least its a step back in the right direction

Thoughts?

This is food for thought, especially the paragraph Kylerian hilighted initially.  I have a bit of a unique perspective because I've only ever played 2 graphical MMORPGs; one of them was WoW and that was for 3 months, the other one I've been playing for over 9 years.  I agree the auction house worked well in WoW, but in the end it ended up being one domino in a chain of 'features' that ended up turning me away from the game (another big one being that Avatars occupied no real physical space like in Neal Stephenson's 'Snow Crash'... yeah, really).

In the second game, the one I stuck with, auction houses do not exist and there are rare / manufactured items and weaponry.  I initially was for the idea of having something like an auction house in game, then I was on the fence.  Now, I'm not sure, but I will say this: I just logged off after having bartered a Concussion Railgun to another player over public chat.  There were several layers of social interaction that would have been skipped over had the transaction gone through an auction house.  There was the 'live' element of asking for someone to make me an offer... discussing the weapon over private chat, comparing it to other items in game (appraisal)... the immediate surprise of having the offer made twice as high as I would have sold for... agreeing on a spot to meet (public or out-of-the-way...? hmm)... then the tense moments after meeting realizing that HE was part of a guild MY alma mater guild had declared KOS, but would it matter? (politics)...

In the end the trade went flawlessly; I came away with twice as much as I had hoped for, and he flew off with a weapon he probably had little idea how to acquire on his own.  It could have gone badly: he could have opened fire on my ship instead of transferring the credits (losing faction standing), and I could have flown off after receiving the credits without dropping the weapon (losing reputation).  An auction house would probably have eliminated at least some of these variables.  Some may see it as an inconvenience, but there is a segment of players that argue in-station player to player trade should be left out because the extra steps are in fact one facet of emergent gameplay; appraisal, location, politics, faction standing, reputation... worthwhile aspects.

Thanks for the interesting topic.

You may be on to something, OP. As I look back over almost a decade of mmos, the community is strongest where trading is an integral part of it. But the maturity of the player base is relevant, as well as an integrated RP element.

The best all-around community I've seen in the past six months is in LOTRO (as compared to WoW, TSW, EQ2 and Vanguard). Obviously just my personal opinion.

The chat chanell is OPEN,therfore it is NOT the place for personal selling.That IS what an AH is for.

it was my biggest peeve when i left FFXI ,where it simply did not exist.I entered EQ2 and VG and Wow and i was amazed at al lthe bs,WTS and WTB SPAM.All you need to do is realize that if there is 5k players and ALL 5k want to spam chat chanell with their WTS and WTB ,the chat would scroll so fast,it would outrace even the EVE online RMT ISK sellers.

It is nonsense to think selling items is the way to make friends,there are far better ways than spamming a chat chanell.It actually p[isses me off,so you wouldn't gain any friends here spamming my chat chanell.

If you want to open your own private auction channel that is different,you are not disrespecting the rest of the users from using the chat chaenll for IMPORTANT things.

If you are still not clued in,then join a group and every 15 seconds spam the group chat with WTS or wtb and see how long before hey all yell at you.

It is simply put a form of DISRESPECT to others users,it is like saying they can use the AH just fine,but YOUR wares are far more important than theirs and needs to be spammed across open chat.

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Originally posted by Wizardry
The chat chanell is OPEN,therfore it is NOT the place for personal selling.That IS what an AH is for.

it was my biggest peeve when i left FFXI ,where it simply did not exist.I entered EQ2 and VG and Wow and i was amazed at al lthe bs,WTS and WTB SPAM.All you need to do is realize that if there is 5k players and ALL 5k want to spam chat chanell with their WTS and WTB ,the chat would scroll so fast,it would outrace even the EVE online RMT ISK sellers.

It is nonsense to think selling items is the way to make friends,there are far better ways than spamming a chat chanell.It actually p[isses me off,so you wouldn't gain any friends here spamming my chat chanell.

If you want to open your own private auction channel that is different,you are not disrespecting the rest of the users from using the chat chaenll for IMPORTANT things.

If you are still not clued in,then join a group and every 15 seconds spam the group chat with WTS or wtb and see how long before hey all yell at you.

It is simply put a form of DISRESPECT to others users,it is like saying they can use the AH just fine,but YOUR wares are far more important than theirs and needs to be spammed across open chat.

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But in games where there is no AH, the /trade channel or somesuch is the method for selling and buying. This does have the effect of bringing a community together, as over time you get to see who the main players are in your economy. And as an outgrowth of that tradeskill or economic community is the banding together of players against scammers and goldsellers, which can produce server pride and teamwork even across faction lines.

Don't think it is just the AH itself.

It is the lack of the ability for the players to run their own vendors that seems to kill communities in terms of economy more.

I notice that most games that have player run vendors (such as SWG, EU or Darkfall) players seems to associate with each other more because they want to find where the good items are sold and who is a good crafter.

It also makes people travel around more, those more chances to run into each other and chat.

Auction houses do remove a bit of community. In UO you'd find a great blacksmith who always had great mat's and skills and stick to him if he treated you well. It is pretty anonymous now. But I would not call it a community killer.

Also, solo quests are not community killers either. That's a huge fallacy. In UO everything was solo. There were no real quests. You befriended people by chance, trading, shared interests and so on. 

WIth that said, I am sure there is a way to enhance the auction house somewhat to give it a more personal touch. Maybe vendors can have their own sections/tabs (when searched criteria is met), and they could even offer discounts on bulk deals. Maybe even offer certain prices for preferred customers? It could even show "online" and you could message them to work out a deal. I dunno, just thoughts off the top of my head. But again, I don't think its a community killer.

AH does not kill a community in any way shape or form. What does is solo centric games.

XI had one of the best/tight nit communities I have ever seen and it had an AH. When you have to interact with other people thats when a community forms. No to little ineraction makes for no community. When I say interaction I dont mean just trying to buy and sell items. Thats not real interaction, and that does not contribute to a community, because you just buy or sell your stuff and go on you merry little way. When I say interaction I mean actually playing the game together, like XP parties/raids/group content stuff. 

You will never ever ever ever ever ever ever and I mean never ever ever ever ever ever have a server comunity in solo centric mmo's. That is the number 1 killer to a community.

I like to think that I never criticize other peoples posts, but I think it's crazy to say that the AH didn't hurt the community in EQ badly. The EC tunnel was always full, it's where I went to find larger dungeon groups because of trading. One day after the auction house popped up the tunnel was dead.

The other thing that killed community was voip. It also helped in a way, but it forced people to get TS or Vent, go through all the hassle of setting up server connections and people started to feel like it wasn't worth the hassle. Better to go out with a 5 group that already has TS than set up a 6th with all the crap and have them leave after one fight. On top of that people used to chat all the time in text, where you can split off if you want privacy. It's much less convenient to have multiple conversations with VoIP along with a mass guild conversation at the same time.

I wouldn't go back for either, but it makes creating a community harder.

The third leg for me in the community problem is just growing older. When I was younger I'd join up with anyone. Now I get mad at people more easily. My biggest complaint about people are that they complain. (ironic I know)

I like groups that can fail and still have fun, and it's almost impossible to find that. It's not worth joining a group when half of the people are telling the other half how to play their class. Coming from EQ and having a regular group that hit the highest dungeons without a warrior, cleric or enchanter it's hard for me to listen to people tell a group member how they should play their class.

I would go back to being younger and just jump in to more groups and roll with the new way more if I could.

I don't think there's any going back, so we just have to work within the guild system to try and make what connections we can. Taking away auction houses might help one small corner, but not the whole problem.

Originally posted by Psychow

Originally posted by Lazzaro

One of the many thing I loved in SWG was driving around with my speeder from vendor to vendor and finding awesome stuff.

 

Maybe it's because I didn't play SWG but...that sounds like the most boring activity ever. (note: I also hate shopping IRL...)

Actually it was fun.  You did not have to do this, since sooner or later you would know few best crafters in your area,(or your friends / guild would )  but it still was fun to check stores once in a while.  

Obviously many people will not like it.   Every game type, every genre, etc have people that like it and that don't.

Many newest mmorpg's are totally diffrent game type that old ones.  Technically they are still in same genre, but they went so far in differentiating and total concept change that it could be said that they are in diffrent genres.

Originally posted by Myrdynn

I have long been thinking of posting this, finally getting a little time to do so.  While playing some games recently, TSW, GW2, SWtor, TERA, etc over the last year, it has dawned on me that the biggest community killer is the Auction House.  Recently games (TSW and GW2) launched without a proper AH, and until they were put in place, people actually talked in the channels, making deals, helping people, selling mats etc.  I actually made a couple acquaintances that were heavy crafters, who just were after all the supplies they could get their hands on, and I was willing to help em out.  It was a good relationship.  Then the AH was fixed, and since then I havent even talked to a single person in game.  Before you say, well I should try making friends, there really is nothing in either TSW or GW2 that having friends makes beneficial.  I dont need them to do anything in game, I dont need them to craft anything for me, etc.

Now long ago, the games we played didnt have Auction Houses, and they were very strong communities.  Everyone on a server knew that if you wanted a Ubersword of Giant Slaying, that BobJohnson was the one that could craft it the best, or you could at least ask around and see if someone could hook you up.  This built community, numerous times, a conversation would go something like.  Hey I hear you can make me "item X', sure I can, but the mats are really tough to come by.  But why dont we get a group together and go out on a hunting party to find them.  You get your mats, you help me skill up one of my crafting skills, its a win/win.  Friendships were formed, alliances were forged, etc.

Unfortunately with the have it all now crowd that play MMO's Auction Houses are an evil necessity.  You collect your mats, sell them on the AH for X currency, then search for the item you want and bam, you got it, very short time, very EZ.  But during this time, you have no interaction with another player whatsoever, hell you dont even know who made you your item.  Items used to be imprinted with crafters as well, so that when someone says hey where did you get that sword you could inspect it and it would say made by "player X".

Anyways, I know I am going to likely be in the minority, but its something I have been thinking of for some time.  I think a happy medium might be a game where an Auction House isnt really an AH, but a Job listing, for example you want "Sword X" you search the AH database of "who" can craft it, and it will give you a list with (online/offline) status's, where you then actually need to interact with a player, It might not be all that much different but at least its a step back in the right direction

Thoughts?

 I agree, and it isnt the only problem with communitys in these games but its one high up on the list. along with instances, general chat, and the questing systems.

Originally posted by Myrdynn

I have long been thinking of posting this, finally getting a little time to do so.  While playing some games recently, TSW, GW2, SWtor, TERA, etc over the last year, it has dawned on me that the biggest community killer is the Auction House.  Recently games (TSW and GW2) launched without a proper AH, and until they were put in place, people actually talked in the channels, making deals, helping people, selling mats etc.  I actually made a couple acquaintances that were heavy crafters, who just were after all the supplies they could get their hands on, and I was willing to help em out.  It was a good relationship.  Then the AH was fixed, and since then I havent even talked to a single person in game.  Before you say, well I should try making friends, there really is nothing in either TSW or GW2 that having friends makes beneficial.  I dont need them to do anything in game, I dont need them to craft anything for me, etc.

Now long ago, the games we played didnt have Auction Houses, and they were very strong communities.  Everyone on a server knew that if you wanted a Ubersword of Giant Slaying, that BobJohnson was the one that could craft it the best, or you could at least ask around and see if someone could hook you up.  This built community, numerous times, a conversation would go something like.  Hey I hear you can make me "item X', sure I can, but the mats are really tough to come by.  But why dont we get a group together and go out on a hunting party to find them.  You get your mats, you help me skill up one of my crafting skills, its a win/win.  Friendships were formed, alliances were forged, etc.

Unfortunately with the have it all now crowd that play MMO's Auction Houses are an evil necessity.  You collect your mats, sell them on the AH for X currency, then search for the item you want and bam, you got it, very short time, very EZ.  But during this time, you have no interaction with another player whatsoever, hell you dont even know who made you your item.  Items used to be imprinted with crafters as well, so that when someone says hey where did you get that sword you could inspect it and it would say made by "player X".

Anyways, I know I am going to likely be in the minority, but its something I have been thinking of for some time.  I think a happy medium might be a game where an Auction House isnt really an AH, but a Job listing, for example you want "Sword X" you search the AH database of "who" can craft it, and it will give you a list with (online/offline) status's, where you then actually need to interact with a player, It might not be all that much different but at least its a step back in the right direction

Thoughts?

I don't believe that's necessarily true.

FFXI had an auction house and it had an awesome community for years. It's disintegrated a bit since SE took the "more soloable and casual friendly" road with it (no surprise there) and a major chunk of its original community has moved on to other games, etc. But for the 7+ years I played it, it had an awesome community despite having an AH.

I think there are far more influential factors at play, personally. Such as the game being extremely solo-friendly, people not having to interact except for a handful of events, etc. If people never have to interact, cooperate, etc, and there's no need for them to ever really communicate in the first place then, AH or no,  a strong community just isn't going to develop. And I'm talking true server communities, not just "your guild" or your "inner circle".

I think it's more a situation where if a MMO has a strong community to begin with, then having an AH or not isn't really going to make a difference. It's a lesser factor among many that make or break one.

The things that are really killing any sense of community are all these things done for "convenience", in the ever-growing effort to "make the game more streamlined and efficient" because people have this idea that every moment in-game must be spent "being as productive and efficient as possible" or it's wasted time (no wonder so many refer to MMOs as "jobs";  they treat them like one). I never quite understood that, personally, and it always comes back to the "console gamer mindset" in my opinion.

The only peson putting that "pressure" on the gamer is them self, because they're in this hurry to get to the end - a very console gamer-like behavior. There are few people I've met (relatively speaking) who made that distinction and "got it" when they first came from console gaming to MMO gaming. Most others immediately try to shoe-horn their console-gamer habits and perceptions into the MMO mold. It usually results in them "yelling" at the "clueless developers" to change the game 'cause they have it all wrong. The argument that "MMORPGs are all about end-game, everything before that is useless filler" was born from that attitude. That's pretty much been the way of it since WoW popularized the genre.

One could argue, with some credibility, that playing a game to begin with is a waste of time. I think it has a lot more to do with people always feeling they have to "hurry hurry hurry" and "go go go" through everything, or they're "not being productive enough". They'll never grow a strong community, because they can't stand still long enough to put down any kind of roots, so to speak. There's an end-game with 'phat lewt' and, dammit, they're not stopping 'til they get there.

An hour or 2 spent in a MMO is the same for everyone. The only difference is how it's spent. For the more "adventuring", "journey-oriented" (ie. traditional MMO players), that hour or two is spent doing whatever it is they feel interested in doing. For the more console-gaming minded, that time is spent "being as productive as possible, as quickly and efficiently as possible, because dammit they gotta get to the end-game ASAP, and, damn those developers and their "useless time-sinks", they can never get there as fast as they want". 

Both groups are spending the same amount of "wasted time" playing a game. It's just that one group spends that time enjoying whatever they're doing "right now". The other group spends that time forever fretting impatiently about what they want to be doing in the future.  I make that comparison as un-judgmentally as possible. That's simplly what I observe when I talk to other MMO gamers and read their comments, etc.

So, really, the blame for communities not existing goes to both developers and gamers, almost equally, I think.

I'll have to respectfully disagree there.

Not to mention most of the games mentioned are probably bad examples of games to establish communities* in due to their solo-ability.

As you yourself already said, you don't need others in GW2 for anything (except to make money off of them), the same holds true for SWTOR, though to a lesser degree, I can't speak for TERA but I suspect it's a similar solo friendly system.

I'd say it's more of a combination of things rather than any single thing (such as the AH).

* _{Outside your own guilds}

Yes the Auction House has played a role in the death of community in modern MMOs but it's only one of several things that have done so. In games like EQ you were dependant on other players for almost every aspect of game play. This made it so being social was necessary to achieve anything in game. The community killer in todays MMOs is solo-centric gameplay of which the Auction House plays only one small part. The real aspect of modern MMOs that is killing the community aspects is the fact that in most games you can play from level 1 to whatever the level cap is without having to interact with another player for any reason. Because of this instead of players viewing others as a possible boon they are now seen as a liability that will only get in the way of leveling and solo questing.

EDIT: You are correct about one thing though. Action Houses were the first step down this soloers path that we seem to be stuck in now. People hate things such as forced grouping but it was these very things that helped nurcher some of the best communities of the past as it made players interdepentant of each other and created server-wide communities that are just impossible in todays solo-centric games.

Bren

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Originally posted by Grixxitt

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Originally posted by Loktofeit

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Originally posted by AlBQuirky

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Originally posted by Leoghan
If I remember correctly SWG launched with the market terminals or whatever they called them, I think that game probably had one of the best communities especially when it came to learning who was the best at crafting what and the like.

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This statement here I see often, "...the best crafters..." How so?

Is LordDarkittyDarkdark's "Chainmail of Infusion" better than XxAlucardxX's "Chainmail of Infusion"? Are the stats any different? Does one give more AC than the other? Is one more durable than the other?

Does LadyNightShade's basic backpack wear out any faster than FatL33tz's basic backpack? Does it hold any more items?

How does a player become a "better craftsman" than any other player? I just don't understand what people mean by this turn of phrase.

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Some examples from previous games:
SWG - some resources were only available in certain areas. Some crafters could create things that others simple couldn't because they neither knew how nor had the materials to do so.
UO - having shops in prime locations. Regularly stocking good. Offering a selection of specific goods. For example, I'd regularly get my spears and krysses from Krom Flaa. I had easy access to his shop, he was always stocked with weapons, and his weapons were always GM quality with the option of deadly poisoned or regular.
EVE - location, stock and also ability to ship goods. Some crafters just build things to put on the market. Some take special orders. Depending on the blueprints they have and their efficiency, some crafters can build goods faster or for less materials. Some have freighters and an escort team so that if someone orders a fleet of battleships they can not only fill the order at a decent price but also ship it to the desired destination (usually at a nice price per jump to get there).

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In most sandbox games there are usually secondary skills that do affect wear/durability.

In UO a lot of that stuff was patched in later, and has to do with arms lore if memory serves.

Mortal took up to 3 characters just to make weapons/armor

In Darkfall it was Trueforge, and before the recent skill increase only dedicated crafters had a high Trueforge which made that 20k weapon up to 4 times as durable

I'm guessing mister Quirky hasn't played any sandbox titles before

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