Originally posted by Xasapis

Originally posted by observer

Originally posted by FrodoFragins
GW2 is a nice game.  But I don't think it's changed the MMO world yet.  Hopefully B2P will catch on, but getting rid of teh trinity hasn't had the world changing results they hoped for.

I agree pretty much with this.  I really hope the days of traditional quest hubs are over.  The lack of trinity though doesn't seem like it will change anything, since i think GW2 didn't replace it with something better.

Well, hearts are not exactly an improvement over quest hubs, if you see them objectively. It's not like you go to an area and you do something because you react to something that is happening (as was overhyped advertised), you do it because a checklist pops up on the top right corner. If it wasn't for that checklist, the majority of the heart quests would be ignored by the players. And it's not because players learned to interact in a certain way, more like you can't really tell something is needed to be done and how without that very much needed check list.

 

What feels more natural? Step into an area and get a checklist of stuff you can do to complete a quest or go to an NPC that may have a job for you? Or even better, (something that GW2 does with events), have an NPC run to you with a request to urgently move to a certain area?

Hearts are an improvement though.  The interaction with the NPC is not needed.  The multiple objectives for them is an improvement.  The optional heart tasks are just that, optional.  They provide a better flow of questing than the traditional model.  In the more traditional model, you would need to click an NPC, grab all quests, do quests, then return back to NPC for rewards.  Are they still the same objectives of Fetch X, Kill Y type of quests?  Yes, but the way it's presented is an improvement.

I've looked at it objectively, have you?

Originally posted by nsignific
Massively ironic, considering the years of hate WoW's been getting from everyone who plays video games.

Fixed that for ya.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Originally posted by observer

Originally posted by FrodoFragins
GW2 is a nice game.  But I don't think it's changed the MMO world yet.  Hopefully B2P will catch on, but getting rid of teh trinity hasn't had the world changing results they hoped for.

I agree pretty much with this.  I really hope the days of traditional quest hubs are over.  The lack of trinity though doesn't seem like it will change anything, since i think GW2 didn't replace it with something better.

Well, hearts are not exactly an improvement over quest hubs, if you see them objectively. It's not like you go to an area and you do something because you react to something that is happening (as was overhyped advertised), you do it because a checklist pops up on the top right corner. If it wasn't for that checklist, the majority of the heart quests would be ignored by the players. And it's not because players learned to interact in a certain way, more like you can't really tell something is needed to be done and how without that very much needed check list.

 

What feels more natural? Step into an area and get a checklist of stuff you can do to complete a quest or go to an NPC that may have a job for you? Or even better, (something that GW2 does with events), have an NPC run to you with a request to urgently move to a certain area?

Overhype? I dont think you realize hearts didnt even exist originally. It was DEs that were hyped. Hearts were added in later to act as sort of a filler / guideline to get people into different areas and do things that would trigger DEs. Its kind of funny actually. After all the complaining of games like WoW "holding your hand" and guiding you through the game, people complaine dthat they needed their hand held and didnt know where to go and what to do because Arenanet didnt tell them where to go until they added in the heart quests.

BTW, just like with quests in any other game, you CAN talk to the heart NPC and he tells you what is going on, why youre doing these things, how to do them, etc. The difference is it is not required to begin working on the tasks in most cases. Though there are some where you do have to talk to an NPC to get special tools, buffs, transformations, etc.

Originally posted by Xasapis
We sincerely apologise for calling your girlfriend ugly, won't happen again.

 Ha!

The thing is that there are 2 kinds of people critizing the game, those who actually have a point and those just trolling (and the same goes for all games). And of course the people who have a point but are so rude about it that everyone ignores their point.

I like the game myself, but it isnt perfect. Well founded critizing is not wrong, if everyone just say the game is perfect there would be no reason to make it better and discussing games are what we do on forums.

Some people here tend to treat people who say the game is just a Wow clone and people who gives suggestion how to make DEs more interesting th same way and that isnt fair.

Originally posted by Kilsin

I dont see a problem with this, it is not only the content but how you present it that matters.

There are books that have a pretty boring story that still is great because they are well written, and there are books that have a great story but are so badly written that reading them is a pain.

The type of quests that showed up in Meridian 59 and before it in single player RPGs like Pool of radiance could be presented in a lot more interseting way. Bioware thought the same but sadly does cut scenes for everything getting old really fast.

You just don't get it  do ya?

Should I even bother to explain? That pic is so true LOL!

GW2 is overrated.

and panda sucks

(.......and ready to be flamed.)

Originally posted by tomato_kwan

You just don't get it  do ya?

Should I even bother to explain? That pic is so true LOL!

GW2 is overrated.

and panda sucks

(.......and ready to be flamed.)

I think it is you that dont get it, I also think the picture is true.

By presenting content a different way you can do it a lot more fun.

Originally posted by tomato_kwan

You just don't get it  do ya?

 

Should I even bother to explain? That pic is so true LOL!

GW2 is overrated.

 

and panda sucks

 

(.......and ready to be flamed.)

I dont think you get it.

Ill put it this way. Give us an idea for a quest that doesnt involve any of the following:

1) Killing something (or using a special weapon / tool to "attack" it)

2) Collecting something

3) Escorting / protecting something from attackers

4) Interacting with objects / speaking with NPCs to trigger something

See these are all pretty much standard things that you simply cant vary from vary much. In any MMO (most games actually, not just MMOs), the content is going to revolve around doing those things. If you werent doing those things you wouldnt have any form of quests. What matters is, as Loke said, how it is presented. Sure you might be killing stuff in one game, and its boring as hell. Does that make killing stuff in EVERY game just as boring? Offering more fun ways of doing these things, as well as options (such as in GW2 where you might be bored of kiling stuff, so you just do one of the other options instead).

That last part is one of the biggest differences in GW2 vs most other games. Quests in othe rgames ar etypically you have to do exactly this thing (like kill 50 of something), or a combination of multiple things but all required (such as kill 50 of this thing and collect 20 of this). All parts are required. But in GW2 you have the option of killing something OR gathering something OR whatever else they offer. None of those tasks are an absolute requirement, and you can combine ny amount of them in different ways to still complete the quest.

Originally posted by observer

Hearts are an improvement though.  The interaction with the NPC is not needed.  The multiple objectives for them is an improvement.  The optional heart tasks are just that, optional.  They provide a better flow of questing than the traditional model.  In the more traditional model, you would need to click an NPC, grab all quests, do quests, then return back to NPC for rewards.  Are they still the same objectives of Fetch X, Kill Y type of quests?  Yes, but the way it's presented is an improvement.

I've looked at it objectively, have you?

That's ridiculous, of course interaction with the NPCs is needed. Hearts were a really stupid idea, whereas DEs were a much better one (because the interaction with NPCs is done in a more natural way).

Objectively? Have you, really?

Just because something is "optional", does not excuse it from being shitty.

Originally posted by kaiser3282

Originally posted by tomato_kwan

You just don't get it  do ya?

 

Should I even bother to explain? That pic is so true LOL!

GW2 is overrated.

 

and panda sucks

 

(.......and ready to be flamed.)

I dont think you get it.

Ill put it this way. Give us an idea for a quest that doesnt involve any of the following:

1) Killing something (or using a special weapon / tool to "attack" it)

2) Collecting something

3) Escorting / protecting something from attackers

4) Interacting with objects / speaking with NPCs to trigger something

 

See these are all pretty much standard things that you simply cant vary from vary much. In any MMO (most games actually, not just MMOs), the content is going to revolve around doing those things. If you werent doing those things you wouldnt have any form of quests. What matters is, as Loke said, how it is presented. Sure you might be killing stuff in one game, and its boring as hell. Does that make killing stuff in EVERY game just as boring? Offering more fun ways of doing these things, as well as options (such as in GW2 where you might be bored of kiling stuff, so you just do one of the other options instead).

That last part is one of the biggest differences in GW2 vs most other games. Quests in othe rgames ar etypically you have to do exactly this thing (like kill 50 of something), or a combination of multiple things but all required (such as kill 50 of this thing and collect 20 of this). All parts are required. But in GW2 you have the option of killing something OR gathering something OR whatever else they offer. None of those tasks are an absolute requirement, and you can combine ny amount of them in different ways to still complete the quest.

Are you saying that those 4 simplistic things are the only ways to do quests? Sorry but that is not true and to be precise what you call quests I would say are tasks.

For me quests are much more overarching than that. The Fellowship of the Ring was a quest, it involved all those things you mention but also it involved talking to people, convincing people to get on your side, making the right choices etc etc. 

I admin that MMORPG quests are quite simplistic but they dont have to be, it is just the devs which has choosen this easy route so they can keep up with creating content. But quests can be much, much more and in GW 2, like any MMORPG, they simply are not.

They are different and more fun than your usual click on NPC and do quest thing but they are not that different. The only one I saw so far which was different was this Dynamic Quest where you had to solve riddles, think it was in the Norn starter area, and if you solved them you would advance and eventually complete it. It was a bit too easy but alteast it required you to use your brain.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Kilsin

I dont see a problem with this, it is not only the content but how you present it that matters.

There are books that have a pretty boring story that still is great because they are well written, and there are books that have a great story but are so badly written that reading them is a pain.

The type of quests that showed up in Meridian 59 and before it in single player RPGs like Pool of radiance could be presented in a lot more interseting way. Bioware thought the same but sadly does cut scenes for everything getting old really fast.

I agree that presentation can make a difference, but ArenaNet and the fan community did so much to convince anyone paying attention that their content delivery was going to be revolutionary in dynamic, when it's really just a minor innovation of the same tired formula from two crappier games that came before it. I'm not saying that the entire design is flawed, there's certainly merit to be found in the combat system, but questing or mission running felt boringly familiar.

Originally posted by Kilsin

Originally posted by jungleninja

To all those that attack guild wars 2:

If you dont like the game, ok, but dont say things thats not true. The game rocks! It has changed the MMO world and all you guys and galls that attack it, are just angry that your game cant live up to the name! Go and play with your pandas then, if you dont like gw2. But dont attack without vallid reasons. All I read are attacks that have no real underline. Just attacks with their own oppinions and not true facts.

And about saying that Arenanet is facking the numbers? Look what Blizzard did. They gave 6 million people a 'free' copy of diablo 3 and said look what we did. I got mine free with a magazine sub. So.....

Im really thinking that some companies are behind the attacks on GW2. Why? Because noone with a clear mind would attack a game. Some people like it, some dont, but a real gamer wouldnt attack a game. Its more likely an employee afraid of loosing a job thats doing it. And they should fear GW2, because all others asking 15 euros a month for a sub and not adding hardly anything and then also asking money for an expansion, that the subbers already actually paid for.....!

So, here you have it, like it or not, but a real gamer is not a hater!

Oh and by the way...I like the other game too, but im no longer paying for a sub! GW2 rocks!

This picture still cracks me up and i have seen it many times. lol

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by kaiser3282

Originally posted by tomato_kwan

You just don't get it  do ya?

 

Should I even bother to explain? That pic is so true LOL!

GW2 is overrated.

 

and panda sucks

 

(.......and ready to be flamed.)

I dont think you get it.

Ill put it this way. Give us an idea for a quest that doesnt involve any of the following:

1) Killing something (or using a special weapon / tool to "attack" it)

2) Collecting something

3) Escorting / protecting something from attackers

4) Interacting with objects / speaking with NPCs to trigger something

 

See these are all pretty much standard things that you simply cant vary from vary much. In any MMO (most games actually, not just MMOs), the content is going to revolve around doing those things. If you werent doing those things you wouldnt have any form of quests. What matters is, as Loke said, how it is presented. Sure you might be killing stuff in one game, and its boring as hell. Does that make killing stuff in EVERY game just as boring? Offering more fun ways of doing these things, as well as options (such as in GW2 where you might be bored of kiling stuff, so you just do one of the other options instead).

That last part is one of the biggest differences in GW2 vs most other games. Quests in othe rgames ar etypically you have to do exactly this thing (like kill 50 of something), or a combination of multiple things but all required (such as kill 50 of this thing and collect 20 of this). All parts are required. But in GW2 you have the option of killing something OR gathering something OR whatever else they offer. None of those tasks are an absolute requirement, and you can combine ny amount of them in different ways to still complete the quest.

Are you saying that those 4 simplistic things are the only ways to do quests? Sorry but that is not true and to be precise what you call quests I would say are tasks.

For me quests are much more overarching than that. The Fellowship of the Ring was a quest, it involved all those things you mention but also it involved talking to people, convincing people to get on your side, making the right choices etc etc. 

I admin that MMORPG quests are quite simplistic but they dont have to be, it is just the devs which has choosen this easy route so they can keep up with creating content. But quests can be much, much more and in GW 2, like any MMORPG, they simply are not.

They are different and more fun than your usual click on NPC and do quest thing but they are not that different. The only one I saw so far which was different was this Dynamic Quest where you had to solve riddles, think it was in the Norn starter area, and if you solved them you would advance and eventually complete it. It was a bit too easy but alteast it required you to use your brain.

Yes I know there are other things that could be done, but those 4 are going to be the meat of the game for nearly any game. If you took something else, such as solving riddles, and made all of the quests revolve around that then people would be saying the exact same thing "Waaaah its so boring. You do the same thing in every quest."

As for your mention about the Fellowship of the Ring. Along with the hearts and DEs, thats where the Personal Story comes in. You have much of the same there as in the fellowship. Travelling to different areas, meeting and helping new characters, choosing who to join / ally with, making decisions like going after an enemy vs saving a friend or ambushing a caravan vs sneaking in and stealing an object from their base, etc. All while working towards the grand goal of defeating the dragons and saving Tyria.

Thats the thing. If you focus on hearts and only hearts, yeah it seems like things are lacking. But there are various types of objectives in the game If all of the content existed in one thing (like hearts) what would e the point of having the other things (like DEs and Personal Story)?

Also along with the Norn riddle solving DE, there are also hearts with similar tasks. One I can think of off the top of my head gives you (along with kiling and collecting stuff) the option of solving some math problems.

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by jungleninja

(snip)

Oh and by the way...I like the other game too, but im no longer paying for a sub! GW2 rocks!

Agreed

 

I wish the MMORPG.com staff would do a tad better at policing the trolls and baiters though.  Perception is skewed because of this IMO.

Agree with you Zy

Policing is needed more now then ever. :) I used to be a WoW fanatic, until GC was put in charge. Everything has gone downhill from there.

Originally posted by jungleninja

To all those that attack guild wars 2:

If you dont like the game, ok, but dont say things thats not true. The game rocks! It has changed the MMO world and all you guys and galls that attack it, are just angry that your game cant live up to the name! Go and play with your pandas then, if you dont like gw2. But dont attack without vallid reasons. All I read are attacks that have no real underline. Just attacks with their own oppinions and not true facts.

And about saying that Arenanet is facking the numbers? Look what Blizzard did. They gave 6 million people a 'free' copy of diablo 3 and said look what we did. I got mine free with a magazine sub. So.....

Im really thinking that some companies are behind the attacks on GW2. Why? Because noone with a clear mind would attack a game. Some people like it, some dont, but a real gamer wouldnt attack a game. Its more likely an employee afraid of loosing a job thats doing it. And they should fear GW2, because all others asking 15 euros a month for a sub and not adding hardly anything and then also asking money for an expansion, that the subbers already actually paid for.....!

So, here you have it, like it or not, but a real gamer is not a hater!

Oh and by the way...I like the other game too, but im no longer paying for a sub! GW2 rocks!

But GW2 players trashing games like TSW is ok then?

hypocrite.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Originally posted by observer

Originally posted by FrodoFragins
GW2 is a nice game.  But I don't think it's changed the MMO world yet.  Hopefully B2P will catch on, but getting rid of teh trinity hasn't had the world changing results they hoped for.

I agree pretty much with this.  I really hope the days of traditional quest hubs are over.  The lack of trinity though doesn't seem like it will change anything, since i think GW2 didn't replace it with something better.

Well, hearts are not exactly an improvement over quest hubs, if you see them objectively. It's not like you go to an area and you do something because you react to something that is happening (as was overhyped advertised), you do it because a checklist pops up on the top right corner. If it wasn't for that checklist, the majority of the heart quests would be ignored by the players. And it's not because players learned to interact in a certain way, more like you can't really tell something is needed to be done and how without that very much needed check list.

 

What feels more natural? Step into an area and get a checklist of stuff you can do to complete a quest or go to an NPC that may have a job for you? Or even better, (something that GW2 does with events), have an NPC run to you with a request to urgently move to a certain area?

It was said several times that the only reason why the heart quests were added was for the people that had no experience with dynamic events, can make the transition from normal quests to the dynamic events.

As about the right side to the screen popping up:

You have the same approach on any classical mmo most of the time with the difference that in the classical mmo approach you need to go and talk to the npc and then to another and then to another.

The result is that as long as you didn't do that you won't be able to progress in the game while in GW2 the hearts are not mandatory and you can ignore them if you choose to do so.

The pop up goes also away when you go out of range, in classical mmos it stays in your quest log till you do it.

The heart quests are also only available till you reached a certain level.

I think they end somewhere in the range between 50s and 60s?

After that we have only dynamic and meta events which will probably also stay that way in the expansions to come.

To me they are a major improvement because they offer more freedom and choice but it depends on ones taste so....

Hearts are distributed more in terms of territory than level range. Basically Orr has no hearts. It also has the highest amount of broken events and broken skill challenges. So it may have been an intentional choice to leave hearts outside of Orr, or they just run out of time and ideas by that point. They instead overfilled Orr with mobs, so not only the zones are jam packed with them, they have stun, slow, cripple and other abilities to hinder and slow runners.

The thing is, if hearts are erased as content as suggested above, the game will be even emptier in terms of PvE content than it currently is. And WvW holds very few people per server to keep people interested and entertained (thus the long queues, especially during prime time).

How about we all duke it out in a arm-wrestling contest, and who ever wins has the right to say what's the world best MMORPG ever! And every one has to listen to the winner couse he won....