Originally posted by rutaq

      Your observation about "Time" being the only thing MMO challenge is based on is a bit simplistic but I see what you are saying.   To be successful in an old school forced grouping MMO, the "Time" requirement forced you develop your Patience, Thinking skills, Social skills and required a level of dedication to see things through.

 

The same  Hard = Time observation can be applied to anything really.   Lets take a Real Life accomplishment that is generally considered "hard"....

 

1)  Getting your PHD, learning skills, logic skills, dedication.   Done....

2)  Running a Marathon,  Physical exertion until your body changes to accommodate the level of activity, dedication.  Done...

3)  Being a Mom for a big family, organization skills, logic skills, lots and lots and lots of dedication.   Done...

 

 

Let me list a some other things where those skills come in useful:

4.  Watching a Uwe Boll film

5. Sitting through a Justin Bieber concert

A lot of very unpleasant activities also require patinetnce and dedication to see through.  However, they are not activities I want to engage in to entertain myself. 

Originally posted by PsyMike3d

Originally posted by delete5230

/snip
 

Darkfall Unholy Wars is comming. And it has all and more of those you are asking ;)

Except that "DF2" is being made by the same incompetents that made DF1.

That game was the most broken and buggy POS I have ever had the misfortune to play for its first 6 months. It was crap, and it launched with less than half the promised features. ANd many of those features did not work.

And no communication except to complain about their customers.

Some people forget that.

I don't.

So, no... "DF2" is likely not what ANYONE is looking for, unless and until AV proves they can put out something not a piece of garbage. And not like the original DF.

   We do have one and it is called---Vanguard------and very few people play

    We have a old school sand box called -----Ryzom-----and very few people play

The same crap sold over and over, what does that remind me of? Oh yeah, every radio station in america.

We are in the biggest MMO drought of the past decade. Every game that was good has turned bad with expansions. Every new game is either a bad wow copy or a straight up flop.

If you want a difficult group centered MMORPG this the only thing that can hold you over:

http://www.project1999.org/

Originally posted by eddieg50

   We do have one and it is called---Vanguard------and very few people play

    We have a old school sand box called -----Ryzom-----and very few people play

 

Vanguard is NOT all its cracked up to be. From the early 2000's graphics, to the rehash of eq2 in different clothes. Its not that good a game. EQ2 had better graphics than this game does. And Vanguard is newer. 

Ryzom is OLD. Enough said. 

There is no reason that a fully modern game can't have good game play and graphics that isn't all about getting to the top as fast as possible, raiding and pvp. None. 

Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by PsyMike3d

Originally posted by delete5230

/snip
 

Darkfall Unholy Wars is comming. And it has all and more of those you are asking ;)

Except that "DF2" is being made by the same incompetents that made DF1.

That game was the most broken and buggy POS I have ever had the misfortune to play for its first 6 months. It was crap, and it launched with less than half the promised features. ANd many of those features did not work.

And no communication except to complain about their customers.

Haha what fantasy realm do you come from? Those "incompetents" made one of the most technically impressive MMOs ever, on a shoestring budget with no experience. Imagine what they can do with a team 3 times as big and with 4 years of experience? Darkfall, other than Vanguard, was the only interesting MMO to come out in the last 7 years.

As for your spotty recollection of the launch, there were hardly any bugs at all. Certainly none that impacted the gameplay in meaningful ways. There were a handful of bugged quests for the first few weeks. And I can't think of any feature that was outright broken.

The only promised feature that the game launched without was roaming mobs, so I don't know where you're getting your "half" bs.

And they patched and communicated every week for about a year. I don't know where you got the "complain about customers" bit.

Originally posted by Moirae

Originally posted by eddieg50

   We do have one and it is called---Vanguard------and very few people play

    We have a old school sand box called -----Ryzom-----and very few people play

 

Vanguard is NOT all its cracked up to be. From the early 2000's graphics, to the rehash of eq2 in different clothes. Its not that good a game. EQ2 had better graphics than this game does. And Vanguard is newer.

Vanguard is almost nothing like EQ2... EQ2 is a heavily instanced themepark, Vanguard is a zoneless, instanceless sandbox/themepark, and its graphics are way WAAY ahead of EQ2.

Very few people played Vanguard for quite a few reasons, the biggest being that SoE never tried to develop the game or put any money into it. Now that theres a full dev team again and some actually money coming in, a lot of people are playing it.

That being said, it has still been made quite casual by classic MMORPG standards, and not everyone likes the pure PVE experience.

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Moirae

Originally posted by eddieg50

   We do have one and it is called---Vanguard------and very few people play

    We have a old school sand box called -----Ryzom-----and very few people play

 

Vanguard is NOT all its cracked up to be. From the early 2000's graphics, to the rehash of eq2 in different clothes. Its not that good a game. EQ2 had better graphics than this game does. And Vanguard is newer.

Vanguard is almost nothing like EQ2... EQ2 is a heavily instanced themepark, Vanguard is a zoneless, instanceless sandbox/themepark, and its graphics are way WAAY ahead of EQ2.

Very few people played Vanguard for quite a few reasons, the biggest being that SoE never tried to develop the game or put any money into it. Now that theres a full dev team again and some actually money coming in, a lot of people are playing it.

 

That being said, it has still been made quite casual by classic MMORPG standards, and not everyone likes the pure PVE experience.

IMO Vanguard is just an ok game.  It's like the devs stopped at each area and went good enough. 

Your have great background graphics, but bad character graphics.

You can build houses, but only from about 6 different styles.

Classes have an interesting turn.

Diplomacy--- well I'll just say it is the best of all the games offereing diplomacy and leave it at that.

lag lag lag lag lag.  falling through world, minute long load at chunks.

But it isn't a bad game, it's just mediocre.

For Ryzom.  IMO Ryzom is the worst iteration of a sandbox and embraces everything that is many consider bad parts.  Very little content, you have digging in the dirt for crafting materials, making one of a dozen types of armor (yes different by stats, but only about a dozen styles of armor), fighting mobs or arraging for a fight on on the outposts.  All fighting styles play exactly the same, all magic styles play exactly the same, all crafting is exactly the same.  Very weak market, no way to even decorate a house.  Absolutley no impact on the world at all.  It can barely be called a sandbox IMO.

edit - and vanguard as zones.  NO there isn't a zone wall, but there are chunk lines where the game pauses to load up the next zone.   And in the beginining SOE put a full dev team in the game, fixed a lot of bugs, tried to reduce the lag.  No real success. 

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Moirae

Originally posted by eddieg50

   We do have one and it is called---Vanguard------and very few people play

    We have a old school sand box called -----Ryzom-----and very few people play

 

Vanguard is NOT all its cracked up to be. From the early 2000's graphics, to the rehash of eq2 in different clothes. Its not that good a game. EQ2 had better graphics than this game does. And Vanguard is newer.

Vanguard is almost nothing like EQ2... EQ2 is a heavily instanced themepark, Vanguard is a zoneless, instanceless sandbox/themepark, and its graphics are way WAAY ahead of EQ2.

Very few people played Vanguard for quite a few reasons, the biggest being that SoE never tried to develop the game or put any money into it. Now that theres a full dev team again and some actually money coming in, a lot of people are playing it.

 

That being said, it has still been made quite casual by classic MMORPG standards, and not everyone likes the pure PVE experience.

IMO Vanguard is just an ok game.  It's like the devs stopped at each area and went good enough. 

Your have great background graphics, but bad character graphics.

You can build houses, but only from about 6 different styles.

Classes have an interesting turn.

Diplomacy--- well I'll just say it is the best of all the games offereing diplomacy and leave it at that.

lag lag lag lag lag.  falling through world, minute long load at chunks.

But it isn't a bad game, it's just mediocre.

For Ryzom.  IMO Ryzom is the worst iteration of a sandbox and embraces everything that is many consider bad parts.  Very little content, you have digging in the dirt for crafting materials, making one of a dozen types of armor (yes different by stats, but only about a dozen styles of armor), fighting mobs or arraging for a fight on on the outposts.  All fighting styles play exactly the same, all magic styles play exactly the same, all crafting is exactly the same.  Very weak market, no way to even decorate a house.  Absolutley no impact on the world at all.  It can barely be called a sandbox IMO.

edit - and vanguard as zones.  NO there isn't a zone wall, but there are chunk lines where the game pauses to load up the next zone.   And in the beginining SOE put a full dev team in the game, fixed a lot of bugs, tried to reduce the lag.  No real success. 

   vanguard is the only game offering Diplomacy that I can think of and this makes it unique, it is a classic old school mmo and that is what the op said he is looking for.

   Ryzom is really an old school sand box mmo,  "very little content"--it is a sand box mmo!  you the player are suppose to make the content, that being said the beginning does an excellent job with quests tutoring you through because it is a complex game.

"digging in the dirt for crafting materials" You mean like SWG, digging in the dirt is sand box in its purest sense, what dont you understand about that it is called harvesting.

the rest of your comments are simply untrue and so do not observe comment

Originally posted by eddieg50

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Moirae

Originally posted by eddieg50

   We do have one and it is called---Vanguard------and very few people play

    We have a old school sand box called -----Ryzom-----and very few people play

 

Vanguard is NOT all its cracked up to be. From the early 2000's graphics, to the rehash of eq2 in different clothes. Its not that good a game. EQ2 had better graphics than this game does. And Vanguard is newer.

Vanguard is almost nothing like EQ2... EQ2 is a heavily instanced themepark, Vanguard is a zoneless, instanceless sandbox/themepark, and its graphics are way WAAY ahead of EQ2.

Very few people played Vanguard for quite a few reasons, the biggest being that SoE never tried to develop the game or put any money into it. Now that theres a full dev team again and some actually money coming in, a lot of people are playing it.

 

That being said, it has still been made quite casual by classic MMORPG standards, and not everyone likes the pure PVE experience.

IMO Vanguard is just an ok game.  It's like the devs stopped at each area and went good enough. 

Your have great background graphics, but bad character graphics.

You can build houses, but only from about 6 different styles.

Classes have an interesting turn.

Diplomacy--- well I'll just say it is the best of all the games offereing diplomacy and leave it at that.

lag lag lag lag lag.  falling through world, minute long load at chunks.

But it isn't a bad game, it's just mediocre.

For Ryzom.  IMO Ryzom is the worst iteration of a sandbox and embraces everything that is many consider bad parts.  Very little content, you have digging in the dirt for crafting materials, making one of a dozen types of armor (yes different by stats, but only about a dozen styles of armor), fighting mobs or arraging for a fight on on the outposts.  All fighting styles play exactly the same, all magic styles play exactly the same, all crafting is exactly the same.  Very weak market, no way to even decorate a house.  Absolutley no impact on the world at all.  It can barely be called a sandbox IMO.

edit - and vanguard as zones.  NO there isn't a zone wall, but there are chunk lines where the game pauses to load up the next zone.   And in the beginining SOE put a full dev team in the game, fixed a lot of bugs, tried to reduce the lag.  No real success. 

   vanguard is the only game offering Diplomacy that I can think of and this makes it unique, it is a classic old school mmo and that is what the op said he is looking for.

   Ryzom is really an old school sand box mmo,  "very little content"--it is a sand box mmo!  you the player are suppose to make the content, that being said the beginning does an excellent job with quests tutoring you through because it is a complex game.

"digging in the dirt for crafting materials" You mean like SWG, digging in the dirt is sand box in its purest sense, what dont you understand about that it is called harvesting.

the rest of your comments are simply untrue and so do not observe comment

What was untrue.  Everything is complete fact.  Name something that was not fact.  I will apologzie and correct it.

Yes Diplomacy is unique which is why I can't say it's the worst.  I personally thought it was terrible but it was the only one, so I guess it's the best too. 

Ryzom only has about a dozen styles of armor.  There is no world impact, no way of even decorating a house and all the styles of crafting are the same, all the styles of fighting are the same, all the styles of magic are the same. 

SWG had multple ways of doing that, heck it had harvesters so you hardly had to do it at all.  Ryzome if I want shells, resins, materials of any kinds I dig in the dirt for ABSOLUTELY every single material.  That is what the crafting is, digging in the dirt and fighting mobs. There is way way way more to harvesting resources and way more variety than just digging in the dirt.  Trees, water, chemicals, air... are just some simple examples that don't involve digging in the dirt.   

Vanguard has zones, called chunks.  There is still lots of lag and bugs. 

As for the content, posted by Uhwop long ago (below).  I don't agree with the player created content part, that is central to sandbox but the rest of it I do agree with.  Perhaps player emergent content might be a better choice, because he is right we can't actually create the content in most games.

" A sandbox game has nothing to do with player created content; I'm so tired of seeing people spout this nonsense everytime they talk about a sandbox MMO.

Sandbox games didn't start with MMO's.

Sandbox, open ended, free-form. Games that focus on world building, and not central characters (you). They don't define the path you take, they aren't about housing, they aren't about PvP, they aren't about not having classes. Sandbox gameplay is all about providing a world for you to inhabit, and letting you loose in it.

Baldurs Gate was a sandbox RPG. It's built off of a D&D ruleset, it has classes, and is an open-ended single player RPG. GTA3 is a sandbox, it had a quest line that requred following to unlock other parts of a city; yet it's a single player sandbox RPG.

A sandbox gives you a WORLD THAT ISN'T STRUCTURED. Ultima Online doesn't give you the tools to "create your own content", no more then WoW does. Oblivion doesn't let you "create your own content", any more then Everquest did. I can't make anymore content in EVE online then I can Lineage 2.

City of Heroes gives you the ability to actually create missions, you can't do that in Mortal Online; yet MO is a sandbox MMO, and CoH is a themepark. Ultima online doesn't provide a single "tool" to "create" any content. There is no quest builder in UO, you can't make a dungeon in UO, no tools to build events like SWG had (and SWG isn't a sandbox at this moment, yet I can make my own content in it.), and UO had multiple expansiions over the years to add content to the game; those expansions weren't made by the players.

Being a sandbox game is not an excuse for content light games, or a reason for developers to not have to make content. Sandbox isn't an excuse to not have questing, boss raids, or events. These are all GAMEPLAY FEATURES THAT KEEP PEOPLE ENGROSSED AND ENTERTAINED!

Traditional RPG= Puts player in the role of the hero. Player follows a story that leads to them reaching the end were they confront the protagonist. There may be diversions along the way, some side quests, or activities in the way of minigames. This game is primarilly focused on character development in a typically static world, were the player has little or no effect on what's going on around him.

Sandbox= Open ended gameplay that doesn't have a conclusion (general lack of an endgame). Player isn't always defined within a set role (player may be the hero, or the player may be the bad guy, or maybe the heroes is a hermit that doesn't interact with anything but his pet pig, the players isn't typically predefined by the developers IE: placed in the shoes of a specific character within a story, or playing the hero saves the world.) There may be a central story line, but that story line isn't required to be followed. Lot's of side stories that develop the world around the player. This type of game focuses primarilly on world building, were a players actions impact the world in some way, or where the player is able to alter the world itself in some way.

You make your own story in a sandbox, not your own content.

EVE does well because CCP understood that for a sandbox to work they had to build a world. Everything about EVE has to do with the world itself and how the players behaive within it. Ryzom didn't do so well because the game only feels like a sandbox because there aren't any classes, other then that it's really not a lot dif. from WoW or any other traditional MMO. MO and DF are both FFA PVP with full loot, and they both emphasize this, provide very little in the way of "meaningful" PvE elements (or working ones at that). Face of mankind was developed originally by people that had the same mindset as the "lawl sandbox means player created content" crowd, and they tried to make a game that almost entirely depended on players creating the content, it was also PvP heavy. Fallen Earth has horrible combat.

There has yet to be a single sandbox MMO created in the last decade, that wasn't all about PvP, or set within it's own niche market (like playing a spaceship). When someone finally makes a game more like UO, that isn't all about PvP, has worthwhile PvE, doesn't require 20 other people playing with you to do anything, doesn't run like crap, doesn't have horrible fighting, AND IS FUN, it will have lots and lots of subscribers."

edit -Ryzome is not an old school sandbox.  Lack of content is not the defintion.  SWG and UO were the oldest school content and each of them had orders of magntitude more content than Ryzom including quests. 

Edit - edited the above post to clarify the source

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by eddieg50

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Moirae

Originally posted by eddieg50

   We do have one and it is called---Vanguard------and very few people play

    We have a old school sand box called -----Ryzom-----and very few people play

 

Vanguard is NOT all its cracked up to be. From the early 2000's graphics, to the rehash of eq2 in different clothes. Its not that good a game. EQ2 had better graphics than this game does. And Vanguard is newer.

Vanguard is almost nothing like EQ2... EQ2 is a heavily instanced themepark, Vanguard is a zoneless, instanceless sandbox/themepark, and its graphics are way WAAY ahead of EQ2.

Very few people played Vanguard for quite a few reasons, the biggest being that SoE never tried to develop the game or put any money into it. Now that theres a full dev team again and some actually money coming in, a lot of people are playing it.

 

That being said, it has still been made quite casual by classic MMORPG standards, and not everyone likes the pure PVE experience.

IMO Vanguard is just an ok game.  It's like the devs stopped at each area and went good enough. 

Your have great background graphics, but bad character graphics.

You can build houses, but only from about 6 different styles.

Classes have an interesting turn.

Diplomacy--- well I'll just say it is the best of all the games offereing diplomacy and leave it at that.

lag lag lag lag lag.  falling through world, minute long load at chunks.

But it isn't a bad game, it's just mediocre.

For Ryzom.  IMO Ryzom is the worst iteration of a sandbox and embraces everything that is many consider bad parts.  Very little content, you have digging in the dirt for crafting materials, making one of a dozen types of armor (yes different by stats, but only about a dozen styles of armor), fighting mobs or arraging for a fight on on the outposts.  All fighting styles play exactly the same, all magic styles play exactly the same, all crafting is exactly the same.  Very weak market, no way to even decorate a house.  Absolutley no impact on the world at all.  It can barely be called a sandbox IMO.

edit - and vanguard as zones.  NO there isn't a zone wall, but there are chunk lines where the game pauses to load up the next zone.   And in the beginining SOE put a full dev team in the game, fixed a lot of bugs, tried to reduce the lag.  No real success. 

   vanguard is the only game offering Diplomacy that I can think of and this makes it unique, it is a classic old school mmo and that is what the op said he is looking for.

   Ryzom is really an old school sand box mmo,  "very little content"--it is a sand box mmo!  you the player are suppose to make the content, that being said the beginning does an excellent job with quests tutoring you through because it is a complex game.

"digging in the dirt for crafting materials" You mean like SWG, digging in the dirt is sand box in its purest sense, what dont you understand about that it is called harvesting.

the rest of your comments are simply untrue and so do not observe comment

What was untrue.  Everything is complete fact.  Name something that was not fact.  I will apologzie and correct it.

Yes Diplomacy is unique which is why I can't say it's the worst.  I personally thought it was terrible but it was the only one, so I guess it's the best too. 

Ryzom only has about a dozen styles of armor.  There is no world impact, no way of even decorating a house and all the styles of crafting are the same, all the styles of fighting are the same, all the styles of magic are the same. 

SWG had multple ways of doing that, heck it had harvesters so you hardly had to do it at all.  Ryzome if I want shells, resins, materials of any kinds I dig in the dirt for ABSOLUTELY every single material.  That is what the crafting is, digging in the dirt and fighting mobs. There is way way way more to harvesting resources and way more variety than just digging in the dirt.  Trees, water, chemicals, air... are just some simple examples that don't involve digging in the dirt.   

Vanguard has zones, called chunks.  There is still lots of lag and bugs. 

 

As for the content, posted by Uhwop long ago.  I don't agree with the player created content part, that is central to sandbox but the rest of it I do agree with.  Perhaps player emergent content might be a better choice, because he is right we can't actually create the content in most games.

 

A sandbox game has nothing to do with player created content; I'm so tired of seeing people spout this nonsense everytime they talk about a sandbox MMO.

Sandbox games didn't start with MMO's.

Sandbox, open ended, free-form. Games that focus on world building, and not central characters (you). They don't define the path you take, they aren't about housing, they aren't about PvP, they aren't about not having classes. Sandbox gameplay is all about providing a world for you to inhabit, and letting you loose in it.

Baldurs Gate was a sandbox RPG. It's built off of a D&D ruleset, it has classes, and is an open-ended single player RPG. GTA3 is a sandbox, it had a quest line that requred following to unlock other parts of a city; yet it's a single player sandbox RPG.

A sandbox gives you a WORLD THAT ISN'T STRUCTURED. Ultima Online doesn't give you the tools to "create your own content", no more then WoW does. Oblivion doesn't let you "create your own content", any more then Everquest did. I can't make anymore content in EVE online then I can Lineage 2.

City of Heroes gives you the ability to actually create missions, you can't do that in Mortal Online; yet MO is a sandbox MMO, and CoH is a themepark. Ultima online doesn't provide a single "tool" to "create" any content. There is no quest builder in UO, you can't make a dungeon in UO, no tools to build events like SWG had (and SWG isn't a sandbox at this moment, yet I can make my own content in it.), and UO had multiple expansiions over the years to add content to the game; those expansions weren't made by the players.

Being a sandbox game is not an excuse for content light games, or a reason for developers to not have to make content. Sandbox isn't an excuse to not have questing, boss raids, or events. These are all GAMEPLAY FEATURES THAT KEEP PEOPLE ENGROSSED AND ENTERTAINED!

Traditional RPG= Puts player in the role of the hero. Player follows a story that leads to them reaching the end were they confront the protagonist. There may be diversions along the way, some side quests, or activities in the way of minigames. This game is primarilly focused on character development in a typically static world, were the player has little or no effect on what's going on around him.

Sandbox= Open ended gameplay that doesn't have a conclusion (general lack of an endgame). Player isn't always defined within a set role (player may be the hero, or the player may be the bad guy, or maybe the heroes is a hermit that doesn't interact with anything but his pet pig, the players isn't typically predefined by the developers IE: placed in the shoes of a specific character within a story, or playing the hero saves the world.) There may be a central story line, but that story line isn't required to be followed. Lot's of side stories that develop the world around the player. This type of game focuses primarilly on world building, were a players actions impact the world in some way, or where the player is able to alter the world itself in some way.

You make your own story in a sandbox, not your own content.

EVE does well because CCP understood that for a sandbox to work they had to build a world. Everything about EVE has to do with the world itself and how the players behaive within it. Ryzom didn't do so well because the game only feels like a sandbox because there aren't any classes, other then that it's really not a lot dif. from WoW or any other traditional MMO. MO and DF are both FFA PVP with full loot, and they both emphasize this, provide very little in the way of "meaningful" PvE elements (or working ones at that). Face of mankind was developed originally by people that had the same mindset as the "lawl sandbox means player created content" crowd, and they tried to make a game that almost entirely depended on players creating the content, it was also PvP heavy. Fallen Earth has horrible combat.

There has yet to be a single sandbox MMO created in the last decade, that wasn't all about PvP, or set within it's own niche market (like playing a spaceship). When someone finally makes a game more like UO, that isn't all about PvP, has worthwhile PvE, doesn't require 20 other people playing with you to do anything, doesn't run like crap, doesn't have horrible fighting, AND IS FUN, it will have lots and lots of subscribers.

edit -Ryzome is not an old school sandbox.  Lack of content is not the defintion.  SWG and UO were the oldest school content and each of them had orders of magntitude more content than Ryzom including quests. 

   LOL, it is tough to argue with someone who says BG was a sandbox, I dont know what to say, maybe when I am done laughing I may respond

Originally posted by eddieg50

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by eddieg50

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Moirae

Originally posted by eddieg50

   We do have one and it is called---Vanguard------and very few people play

    We have a old school sand box called -----Ryzom-----and very few people play

 

Vanguard is NOT all its cracked up to be. From the early 2000's graphics, to the rehash of eq2 in different clothes. Its not that good a game. EQ2 had better graphics than this game does. And Vanguard is newer.

Vanguard is almost nothing like EQ2... EQ2 is a heavily instanced themepark, Vanguard is a zoneless, instanceless sandbox/themepark, and its graphics are way WAAY ahead of EQ2.

Very few people played Vanguard for quite a few reasons, the biggest being that SoE never tried to develop the game or put any money into it. Now that theres a full dev team again and some actually money coming in, a lot of people are playing it.

 

That being said, it has still been made quite casual by classic MMORPG standards, and not everyone likes the pure PVE experience.

IMO Vanguard is just an ok game.  It's like the devs stopped at each area and went good enough. 

Your have great background graphics, but bad character graphics.

You can build houses, but only from about 6 different styles.

Classes have an interesting turn.

Diplomacy--- well I'll just say it is the best of all the games offereing diplomacy and leave it at that.

lag lag lag lag lag.  falling through world, minute long load at chunks.

But it isn't a bad game, it's just mediocre.

For Ryzom.  IMO Ryzom is the worst iteration of a sandbox and embraces everything that is many consider bad parts.  Very little content, you have digging in the dirt for crafting materials, making one of a dozen types of armor (yes different by stats, but only about a dozen styles of armor), fighting mobs or arraging for a fight on on the outposts.  All fighting styles play exactly the same, all magic styles play exactly the same, all crafting is exactly the same.  Very weak market, no way to even decorate a house.  Absolutley no impact on the world at all.  It can barely be called a sandbox IMO.

edit - and vanguard as zones.  NO there isn't a zone wall, but there are chunk lines where the game pauses to load up the next zone.   And in the beginining SOE put a full dev team in the game, fixed a lot of bugs, tried to reduce the lag.  No real success. 

   vanguard is the only game offering Diplomacy that I can think of and this makes it unique, it is a classic old school mmo and that is what the op said he is looking for.

   Ryzom is really an old school sand box mmo,  "very little content"--it is a sand box mmo!  you the player are suppose to make the content, that being said the beginning does an excellent job with quests tutoring you through because it is a complex game.

"digging in the dirt for crafting materials" You mean like SWG, digging in the dirt is sand box in its purest sense, what dont you understand about that it is called harvesting.

the rest of your comments are simply untrue and so do not observe comment

What was untrue.  Everything is complete fact.  Name something that was not fact.  I will apologzie and correct it.

Yes Diplomacy is unique which is why I can't say it's the worst.  I personally thought it was terrible but it was the only one, so I guess it's the best too. 

Ryzom only has about a dozen styles of armor.  There is no world impact, no way of even decorating a house and all the styles of crafting are the same, all the styles of fighting are the same, all the styles of magic are the same. 

SWG had multple ways of doing that, heck it had harvesters so you hardly had to do it at all.  Ryzome if I want shells, resins, materials of any kinds I dig in the dirt for ABSOLUTELY every single material.  That is what the crafting is, digging in the dirt and fighting mobs. There is way way way more to harvesting resources and way more variety than just digging in the dirt.  Trees, water, chemicals, air... are just some simple examples that don't involve digging in the dirt.   

Vanguard has zones, called chunks.  There is still lots of lag and bugs. 

 

As for the content, posted by Uhwop long ago.  I don't agree with the player created content part, that is central to sandbox but the rest of it I do agree with.  Perhaps player emergent content might be a better choice, because he is right we can't actually create the content in most games.

 

A sandbox game has nothing to do with player created content; I'm so tired of seeing people spout this nonsense everytime they talk about a sandbox MMO.

Sandbox games didn't start with MMO's.

Sandbox, open ended, free-form. Games that focus on world building, and not central characters (you). They don't define the path you take, they aren't about housing, they aren't about PvP, they aren't about not having classes. Sandbox gameplay is all about providing a world for you to inhabit, and letting you loose in it.

Baldurs Gate was a sandbox RPG. It's built off of a D&D ruleset, it has classes, and is an open-ended single player RPG. GTA3 is a sandbox, it had a quest line that requred following to unlock other parts of a city; yet it's a single player sandbox RPG.

A sandbox gives you a WORLD THAT ISN'T STRUCTURED. Ultima Online doesn't give you the tools to "create your own content", no more then WoW does. Oblivion doesn't let you "create your own content", any more then Everquest did. I can't make anymore content in EVE online then I can Lineage 2.

City of Heroes gives you the ability to actually create missions, you can't do that in Mortal Online; yet MO is a sandbox MMO, and CoH is a themepark. Ultima online doesn't provide a single "tool" to "create" any content. There is no quest builder in UO, you can't make a dungeon in UO, no tools to build events like SWG had (and SWG isn't a sandbox at this moment, yet I can make my own content in it.), and UO had multiple expansiions over the years to add content to the game; those expansions weren't made by the players.

Being a sandbox game is not an excuse for content light games, or a reason for developers to not have to make content. Sandbox isn't an excuse to not have questing, boss raids, or events. These are all GAMEPLAY FEATURES THAT KEEP PEOPLE ENGROSSED AND ENTERTAINED!

Traditional RPG= Puts player in the role of the hero. Player follows a story that leads to them reaching the end were they confront the protagonist. There may be diversions along the way, some side quests, or activities in the way of minigames. This game is primarilly focused on character development in a typically static world, were the player has little or no effect on what's going on around him.

Sandbox= Open ended gameplay that doesn't have a conclusion (general lack of an endgame). Player isn't always defined within a set role (player may be the hero, or the player may be the bad guy, or maybe the heroes is a hermit that doesn't interact with anything but his pet pig, the players isn't typically predefined by the developers IE: placed in the shoes of a specific character within a story, or playing the hero saves the world.) There may be a central story line, but that story line isn't required to be followed. Lot's of side stories that develop the world around the player. This type of game focuses primarilly on world building, were a players actions impact the world in some way, or where the player is able to alter the world itself in some way.

You make your own story in a sandbox, not your own content.

EVE does well because CCP understood that for a sandbox to work they had to build a world. Everything about EVE has to do with the world itself and how the players behaive within it. Ryzom didn't do so well because the game only feels like a sandbox because there aren't any classes, other then that it's really not a lot dif. from WoW or any other traditional MMO. MO and DF are both FFA PVP with full loot, and they both emphasize this, provide very little in the way of "meaningful" PvE elements (or working ones at that). Face of mankind was developed originally by people that had the same mindset as the "lawl sandbox means player created content" crowd, and they tried to make a game that almost entirely depended on players creating the content, it was also PvP heavy. Fallen Earth has horrible combat.

There has yet to be a single sandbox MMO created in the last decade, that wasn't all about PvP, or set within it's own niche market (like playing a spaceship). When someone finally makes a game more like UO, that isn't all about PvP, has worthwhile PvE, doesn't require 20 other people playing with you to do anything, doesn't run like crap, doesn't have horrible fighting, AND IS FUN, it will have lots and lots of subscribers.

edit -Ryzome is not an old school sandbox.  Lack of content is not the defintion.  SWG and UO were the oldest school content and each of them had orders of magntitude more content than Ryzom including quests. 

   LOL, it is tough to argue with someone who says BG was a sandbox, I dont know what to say, maybe when I am done laughing I may respond

Out of his whole comment about quests, building, pvp, pve, games that let you directly add things, games that you don't, and the inconsistency the gaming community has regarding sandbox and nonsandbox, thats what you took from it?  Sheesh.

"digging in the dirt for crafting materials" You mean like SWG, digging in the dirt is sand box in its purest sense, what dont you understand about that it is called harvesting.

I am a dwarf, and I'm digging a hole! digging a hole, etcetera, etcetera...

Sorry. Couldn't resist XD.

GW2 easy ? bet he dint try to solo Veteran or Champion mobs ? or the hard more dungeons in GW2 :P ?
You cant have cleared them or you woulnt say that btw.

And iam having a full list of friends made in WvW and in PvE...
Its starts within yourself to socialise....specialy with new people.
And The Shatterer and some other dragons where damn epic and heart pounding dude...

Dunno but that age off mmo;s you think about are done death and burried.

We had UO / DaoC / EQ and that kind of mmo's.

Its a diffrent time and age.

I dont have time to stand in a city spamming /1 for 2 hours to find a healer or tank.
I dont have the time to walk / fly 45 min to a dungeon to see the tank left and a group falls apart waisting my whole free evening by one sucker with mental issues.
Old school mmo's are death or are on the brink of dying out like the dinosaurs did.

Your a few left who want to play that kind of game.

Guildwars 2 = E P I C <----- at least for a few years to come.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

Never.  Everyone in this thread is the Hero in his own story.  What's Best for the Genre, obviously, is "whatever I like most".

Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by PsyMike3d

Originally posted by delete5230

/snip
 

Darkfall Unholy Wars is comming. And it has all and more of those you are asking ;)

Except that "DF2" is being made by the same incompetents that made DF1.

That game was the most broken and buggy POS I have ever had the misfortune to play for its first 6 months. It was crap, and it launched with less than half the promised features. ANd many of those features did not work.

And no communication except to complain about their customers.

Haha what fantasy realm do you come from? Those "incompetents" made one of the most technically impressive MMOs ever, on a shoestring budget with no experience. Imagine what they can do with a team 3 times as big and with 4 years of experience? Darkfall, other than Vanguard, was the only interesting MMO to come out in the last 7 years.

As for your spotty recollection of the launch, there were hardly any bugs at all. Certainly none that impacted the gameplay in meaningful ways. There were a handful of bugged quests for the first few weeks. And I can't think of any feature that was outright broken.

The only promised feature that the game launched without was roaming mobs, so I don't know where you're getting your "half" bs.

And they patched and communicated every week for about a year. I don't know where you got the "complain about customers" bit.

Oh, please.

AV got caught changing the features list after launch to hide all the things that were  supposed to be in there at launch and weren't, there are threads in this very section about that.

There were bugs and exploits a plenty, beating/botting on the bloodwall? Swimming in place against an obstuction forever, the messed up mix between melee and ranged, and the fact that magic was useless for the first several months? Not punishing the skill botters? And more?

Much more.

Remember any of that?

One only need to surf this forum from that time in case you need help "remembering". It is all here.

AV goes into the catagory of producers whose games should only be bought long after launch. If ever.

And it also goes to prove some  people will buy anything, no matter the quality.

Originally posted by delete5230

What we need is an old school mmo.  In other words we need an mmo that is hard.

 

 We DON'T need.  Dungeon finders, cross realm nothing,Dynamic events with auto group, story telling that other social people can't get involved,cinematic that pulls players away from the game for 3  minutes when in groups....This stuff is bull crap...Bottom line.

 

We DO need.  A somewhat hard mmo.  One that relays on the guy next to you having a hard time soloing too.  A game that joining a guild means something, and helps the players progress as a team.  Make a friend that you click with?....Add him to your friends list....It's all about survival in a hard world.

 

SOMETHING THAT MAKES YOUR HART POUND, BUT WITH FRIENDS,IT CAN BE DONE.  This is an mmo !....I don't know what you call all this crap we have now.  GuildWars 2 in a nice game.  Well made, tons of features.  BUTT is still a  disappointment as a sociable mmo.  It's too easy, no chatting, no social, no guild or friends dependent.  It's almost hard to call it an mmo depending on how you look at it ( yes and no ).

I for one would like ( my opinion ) An old school mmo with no auto features, yet nice graphics.  An mmo where the developers promise to not ever screw it up and make it easy mode.  A game where developers can concentrate on making the world larger, more exploration, more dungeons and raids . Always working on coding to make the game run better.  What I would like to see ( my opinion ) is the opposite of SWTOR, with its shallow game play yet a bunch of crap cintamatics and cut seens that takes away from grouping and game play.

 

NOW THIS IS IMPORTANT :

People here will bash anyone that brings up old school here on mmorpg.com.  BUT understand this:

What we have now is something other than true mmo's, mixed in with mmo's.  New people are here on this site.  I would guess half like auto everything solo based games with others around them, and half would like a social dependent hard mmo.

It would be nice to separate the distinction between the two and call one something different.  However, we no longer have true mmos so maybe there is no point in doing this.

 

What we have now are 30 day fun to play games.

 Without social dependence there is no reason to log in day after day, month after month, year after year.....Community is what keeps players playing.  For me, once I learn all the thousands of features of this newer style of mmo's I get tired of it.  But if you add a very social dependent environment I could play for years,but thats for me, how about you?

There is a market for old school,Why did things even change ?.....I know ! World of Warcraft changed there formula to easy mode,NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS, BLIZZARD DID THIS ON THERE OWN. Now every mmo follows the big dog,because they think this is what players all like......Did your game go F2P ?

No old school MMO will ever be made by a AAA studio again because 100k subscribers (the top end for old school MMO's) just wont pay the bills.