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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Anet has to do something about teleporting exploits

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69 posts found
  Eletheryl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/12
Posts: 154

10/01/12 9:59:30 AM#41
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by DMKano

We've seen bots teleport all over the place in youtube videos - tonight first time I've seen a player that was teleporting from node to node for insta gathering.

This dude was able to jump at ANY point in the zone instantly - a buddy of mine was on the far north of the zone - I was in the south - this joker manged to pop from south to north and back in less than 10s - there are NO TELEPORTS nearby.

I reported him - it's pretty disgusting that Anets server code has no checks for client side map point jumping. You'd think that it would be pretty easy to detect a client jumping across the entire zone without the use of teleports and back???

Damn bots!

They are working on it. I'll have to see if I can find the statement, but they are pooling the information they are gathering on botters / hackers and planning to deal w/ them all at once, via a series of large bannings.

The reason they are waiting to do this, is because hackers / botters can easily figure out what gave them away if you start banning them too quickly. By waiting a bit and dealing w/ them all at once, there's no derivable pattern for someone to look at and circumvent.

We know about this since beta, do you really believe that anet is doing something?

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3542

Hipster

10/01/12 10:01:26 AM#42
I think those using teleporting exploits are just playing it wrong.
  Amana

MMORPG.COM Staff

Joined: 1/03/11
Posts: 2360

10/01/12 10:01:49 AM#43
Remember that posting videos or any links that show how to recreate an exploit are not allowed on here.

To give feedback on moderation, contact community@mmorpg.com

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

10/01/12 10:07:50 AM#44

Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

 

EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

 

A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

 

There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5207

10/01/12 10:08:49 AM#45
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by DMKano

We've seen bots teleport all over the place in youtube videos - tonight first time I've seen a player that was teleporting from node to node for insta gathering.

This dude was able to jump at ANY point in the zone instantly - a buddy of mine was on the far north of the zone - I was in the south - this joker manged to pop from south to north and back in less than 10s - there are NO TELEPORTS nearby.

I reported him - it's pretty disgusting that Anets server code has no checks for client side map point jumping. You'd think that it would be pretty easy to detect a client jumping across the entire zone without the use of teleports and back???

Damn bots!

They are working on it. I'll have to see if I can find the statement, but they are pooling the information they are gathering on botters / hackers and planning to deal w/ them all at once, via a series of large bannings.

The reason they are waiting to do this, is because hackers / botters can easily figure out what gave them away if you start banning them too quickly. By waiting a bit and dealing w/ them all at once, there's no derivable pattern for someone to look at and circumvent.

thats right if they wait a while, they can take them by surprise, like. leap out from behind a bush just after they teleport to the node, and shout 'ahah caught you, you nasty teleporting hacking scoundrel'  ....  on the other hand, because its mostly client side, they probably can't tell who is doing what, never mind with whom..  i mean, unless they all decide to wear stripy clothing and wear a mask and carry a bag with swag on it..

security, you get what you pay for.. and arenanets take on it, is that they have no choice but to rely on their players to not hack into their game. When online gaming first came out a decade or so ago, that kind of thing might have worked.. some.. but now, not a chance in hell.

  outfctrl

Novice Member

Joined: 11/16/03
Posts: 3630

American by Birth
Biker by choice
Patriot forever

10/01/12 10:14:42 AM#46
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by outfctrl

Since this game is free to play, do you think they have the resources to implement all these security services that have been mentioned here?

All those other mmo's have a steady stream of money coming in from subscriptions.  GW2 doesn't.

It's B2P - F2P means the client is free, to play is free everything is free - last time I checked I paid ~$70 (with tax) for GW2 - that is NOT free.

So they sold 2mil+ boxes - that's 120mil (I read that Anet gets $48 from every box sale) - so it's still a crap ton of money.

Now we don't know what the DEV cost of GW2 was - I am thinking 100-150mil, we don't know what the operational costs are to run the game (including employee salaries, data center cost, etc...) 

Add that all up - do they have enough money to code in some server-side checks? 

No clue - but it should be a huge priority for them, as right now the hacks are ruining the game.

 

Edit - I am going to make a guess that GW2 development cost around $150 million total, because NCSoft target sales were 3.1 million which at $48 per box comes out to $146mil - after that point I bet you every sale is profit.

 

My bad, you are correct.  I was thinking subscription costs.  Yes, you do pay for the game, but then that is it. No more revenue, unless you buy from the cash shop and only then, most of the stuff is temporary.

My Son bought some cool looking armor for his warrior, but when he out levels it, it's gone.

  Eletheryl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/12
Posts: 154

10/01/12 10:18:03 AM#47
Originally posted by botrytis

Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

 

EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

 

A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

 

There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

GW1 was 100% instanced. they are losing the battle on gw2, sadly it will kill the game if they dont do something fast

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7187

10/01/12 10:18:04 AM#48
Originally posted by botrytis

Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

 

EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

 

A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

 

There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

Apples and oranges. EA, Acti/Blizz, and NCsoft would be more on point.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

10/01/12 10:52:08 AM#49
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Amana
Remember that posting videos or any links that show how to recreate an exploit are not allowed on here.

damnit did I miss it?

You didn't miss anything that you can't find easily in a Youtube search: name of MMO + speedhack.

 

The point is that they all have them and continue to have them despite a naive belief by some fans that "MMO "X" has totally eliminated it."

 

Anyone who has ever worked in anti-cheating (or anti-piracy) implementations can tell you that it's always a moving target: as soon as you implement a new method someone wil find a way around it--be it lag-exploits, packet sniffing or the hundreds of other ways to manipulate client/server interactions.

 

As a matter of fact, calling something "hack-proof" is the surest way to have someone hack it quickly--it's like waving a red flag in front of the pirates and cheaters.

 

This was my point above: There is no reason to bash GW2 in any way because cheaters are cheating. The quantity of teleporting bots has a lot more to do with the gold-farmer's market created by the game's popularity than anything Arenanet has done, is doing or will do to counteract it--at the moment at least, GW2 and WOW are far ahead of the MMO pack by a country mile when it comes to potential gold buying customers.

 

But hey, start a topic about the skies being nice to look at in GW2 and there will be 20 posts in 5 minutes here telling us how Anet could have had 3D skies instead of painted 2D ones and that the reason they cheaped-out is that it's not a sub game...if it was a sub game they could afford to hire a proper sky team

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

10/01/12 10:52:51 AM#50
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Scalpless

In the betas, all movement was handled by the client. I guess some of that moved on to the full version. A bit stupid on their part, considering how often this stuff gets exploited.

Another problem that would probably fix itself if people stopped buying gold.

From the mail I get it looks like it's a much better deal to buy from a gold farmer, like 10 times better. If buying gold is you thing (completely unacceptable in my book, Anet or farmer.)

 

Plus, lets not pretend that all the farmers are on hacked accounts, so why not buy the gold from a cheaper source in a game that promotes buying gold?

This is a problem, specially if the gold-buyers think that every hacked account is just the fault of the user, because then there is no real reason for why they wouldn't want to buy gold through 3rd party sources other than that Arenanet's has better security and is more convenient. If the gold sellers can sufficiently undercut Arenanet's prices, that may be a risk and inconvenience worth taking for those potential gold-buyers.

 

If buying gold (practically) from the developers is okay and endorsed by developers, why would it be bad to buy gold from other "legit" players?  "Because the devs has written in their rules that it is bad" is not a sufficient reason. 

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

10/01/12 10:55:52 AM#51
Originally posted by Amana
Remember that posting videos or any links that show how to recreate an exploit are not allowed on here.

Woops. Didn't know that. I am now a wiser man.

  Betakodo

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 338

10/01/12 11:05:50 AM#52
Originally posted by botrytis

Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

 

EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

 

A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

 

There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

How many people in those first two companies actually touch the code? Arenanet is more of a programmer's company started by programmers, who then have the aid of NCSoft as the publisher. I sort of question how many GMs they have. Yeah, Anet  may be fixing it slowly, but they're probably more interested in rolling in the dough and making an expansion that they think will have as many buys as GW2.

Client side in a MMO? I don't think even Korean F2P games do that anymore. Maybe  5 years back, but not now.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

10/01/12 11:12:52 AM#53
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by Amana
Remember that posting videos or any links that show how to recreate an exploit are not allowed on here.

damnit did I miss it?

You didn't miss anything that you can't find easily in a Youtube search: name of MMO + speedhack.

 

The point is that they all have them and continue to have them despite a naive belief by some fans that "MMO "X" has totally eliminated it."

 

Anyone who has ever worked in anti-cheating (or anti-piracy) implementations can tell you that it's always a moving target: as soon as you implement a new method someone wil find a way around it--be it lag-exploits, packet sniffing or the hundreds of other ways to manipulate client/server interactions.

 

As a matter of fact, calling something "hack-proof" is the surest way to have someone hack it quickly--it's like waving a red flag in front of the pirates and cheaters.

 

This was my point above: There is no reason to bash GW2 in any way because cheaters are cheating. The quantity of teleporting bots has a lot more to do with the gold-farmer's market created by the game's popularity than anything Arenanet has done, is doing or will do to counteract it--at the moment at least, GW2 and WOW are far ahead of the MMO pack by a country mile when it comes to potential gold buying customers.

 

But hey, start a topic about the skies being nice to look at in GW2 and there will be 20 posts in 5 minutes here telling us how Anet could have had 3D skies instead of painted 2D ones and that the reason they cheaped-out is that it's not a sub game...if it was a sub game they could afford to hire a proper sky team

 

Yet, Perfect World, the Korean F2P company) managed to stop speed hacking at latest in 2008 in their flagship "Perfect World" back then through presumebly server checks (which is why people other than the alledged speedhackers saw them walking normally). There are certain videos where people claim to have speed-hacked it, but they are either refering to private servers or don't note that when you travel sufficientely large distances, the new npcs and monsters wont load graphically until the "actual time required to reach there normally" has passed, which indicates that the server is keeping an eye on the position and traveling speed of the character. 

 

Other Korean F2P games automatically "jumps" you back to your real position, if you travel too fast. Given that NCSoft is a Korean company, I expected better from them.

 

To really prove that someone is teleport hacking or speed-hacking, you need to be the observer and not the actual person hacking, that way you can see whether they interact and move at accelerated speed or not. 

 

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

10/01/12 11:16:46 AM#54
Originally posted by Betakodo
Originally posted by botrytis

Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

 

EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

 

A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

 

There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

How many people in those first two companies actually touch the code? Arenanet is more of a programmer's company started by programmers, who then have the aid of NCSoft as the publisher. I sort of question how many GMs they have. Yeah, Anet  may be fixing it slowly, but they're probably more interested in rolling in the dough and making an expansion that they think will have as many buys as GW2.

Client side in a MMO? I don't think even Korean F2P games do that anymore. Maybe  5 years back, but not now.

Client side? Your characters are stored on their server. Most games are client/server - oops client/cloud-based (different name, same idea). Does anyon actually understand programming of games on this site? I wonder.......

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4739

10/01/12 11:23:29 AM#55
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by DMKano

We've seen bots teleport all over the place in youtube videos - tonight first time I've seen a player that was teleporting from node to node for insta gathering.

This dude was able to jump at ANY point in the zone instantly - a buddy of mine was on the far north of the zone - I was in the south - this joker manged to pop from south to north and back in less than 10s - there are NO TELEPORTS nearby.

I reported him - it's pretty disgusting that Anets server code has no checks for client side map point jumping. You'd think that it would be pretty easy to detect a client jumping across the entire zone without the use of teleports and back???

Damn bots!

They are working on it. I'll have to see if I can find the statement, but they are pooling the information they are gathering on botters / hackers and planning to deal w/ them all at once, via a series of large bannings.

The reason they are waiting to do this, is because hackers / botters can easily figure out what gave them away if you start banning them too quickly. By waiting a bit and dealing w/ them all at once, there's no derivable pattern for someone to look at and circumvent.

thats right if they wait a while, they can take them by surprise, like. leap out from behind a bush just after they teleport to the node, and shout 'ahah caught you, you nasty teleporting hacking scoundrel'  ....  on the other hand, because its mostly client side, they probably can't tell who is doing what, never mind with whom..  i mean, unless they all decide to wear stripy clothing and wear a mask and carry a bag with swag on it..

security, you get what you pay for.. and arenanets take on it, is that they have no choice but to rely on their players to not hack into their game. When online gaming first came out a decade or so ago, that kind of thing might have worked.. some.. but now, not a chance in hell.

Lol, not quite. The truth is botters & hackers are smart enough to keep track of how they are exploiting the system at any given time. If a company immediately bans a botter / hacker everytime someone sees one, then it's really easy for the hackers & botters to tell how they were caught. That's just a fact.

As for Anet's 'lack of a response'. The games barely over a month old, and people are already forgetting that they've banned a few thousand of them.

That doesn't stop botters from creating new accounts & trying again. Like they do. In every single popular MMORPG. Just because they are there, doesnt mean there's nothing being done about them. Anet has shown pleanty of ban hammers, and managed to lower the amount of hacked accounts quite significantly thus far.

That's not to say that their security doesn't need work, but to say that they aren't actively working on it is a bit of an overreaction.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5107

 
OP  10/01/12 11:41:49 AM#56
Originally posted by Iselin

 

Anyone who has ever worked in anti-cheating (or anti-piracy) implementations can tell you that it's always a moving target: as soon as you implement a new method someone wil find a way around it--be it lag-exploits, packet sniffing or the hundreds of other ways to manipulate client/server interactions.

It is an always moving target - however there are ways of dealing with speed-hacks which are the oldest type of hack that were in games like UO and EQ 13 years ago! Even back then they had code that was flagging players that were moving faster than any in-game means possible and those players were flagged and banned. There is nothing you can do on the client side to "disguise" this - no matter how well you manipulate the packets as the server checks for delta in player positioning during gameplay - if it exceeds some given set of variables - you get flagged - again this is done 100% server side.

 

This was my point above: There is no reason to bash GW2 in any way because cheaters are cheating. 

So it's the hacker's fault for Anet not inculding server side checks for speed-hacks and teleports? 

I think it's ok to give Anet some slack - GW2 is still very new, but hackers are going to rip your product to shreds if you make it easy for them to do so.

 

  TeknoBug

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/07
Posts: 2166

10/01/12 12:36:58 PM#57


Originally posted by botrytis

Originally posted by Betakodo

Originally posted by botrytis Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html   EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts   A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet   There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.
How many people in those first two companies actually touch the code? Arenanet is more of a programmer's company started by programmers, who then have the aid of NCSoft as the publisher. I sort of question how many GMs they have. Yeah, Anet  may be fixing it slowly, but they're probably more interested in rolling in the dough and making an expansion that they think will have as many buys as GW2. Client side in a MMO? I don't think even Korean F2P games do that anymore. Maybe  5 years back, but not now.
Client side? Your characters are stored on their server. Most games are client/server - oops client/cloud-based (different name, same idea). Does anyon actually understand programming of games on this site? I wonder.......

Oh you're talking about data storage, the actual gameplay activity you do with your character is client side. Most games are developed with client side detection these days, in Battlefield 3 there is a hack where you can stand in the spawn and swing your knife and kill someone at the other side of the map with it- THAT's client side, regardless of your character/profile/stats being stored on the servers.


I have no idea why devs choose to create games with client side in mind, 10 years ago 99% of games were server side and now that hacks are more advanced, client side games are just so much easier to hack than server side games.


  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

10/01/12 2:25:29 PM#58
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by Iselin

 

Anyone who has ever worked in anti-cheating (or anti-piracy) implementations can tell you that it's always a moving target: as soon as you implement a new method someone wil find a way around it--be it lag-exploits, packet sniffing or the hundreds of other ways to manipulate client/server interactions.

It is an always moving target - however there are ways of dealing with speed-hacks which are the oldest type of hack that were in games like UO and EQ 13 years ago! Even back then they had code that was flagging players that were moving faster than any in-game means possible and those players were flagged and banned. There is nothing you can do on the client side to "disguise" this - no matter how well you manipulate the packets as the server checks for delta in player positioning during gameplay - if it exceeds some given set of variables - you get flagged - again this is done 100% server side.

 

This was my point above: There is no reason to bash GW2 in any way because cheaters are cheating. 

So it's the hacker's fault for Anet not inculding server side checks for speed-hacks and teleports? 

I think it's ok to give Anet some slack - GW2 is still very new, but hackers are going to rip your product to shreds if you make it easy for them to do so.

 

The fact that speed hacks and other cheats were around 13 years ago is irrelevant. Do you suppose they're using the same methods and code from 1999? Somehow I doubt it.

 

GW2 also has the added complication of having several abilities that are teleports of varying ranges for many classes. For example, the guardian's Judge's intervention is a 1200 range TP on a 25s CD. So TP by itself is not a hack...doing it more often than every 25s or having no blue fire graphics at the destination could be hacks.

 

Like I said, if Anet gives us all free chocolate chip cookies many people in this forum will complain about it being dark chocolate chips and not enough of them.

 

Botting and hacks exist here just like they do in all MMOs and no one in this thread knows what Anet has done, is doing or will be doing about it. Nor do you know what detection is already in the game. Despite seeing a lot of botting, I have yet to see the same name back again the next day. Could be they are being detected and banned for all we know. It's not smart for MMO companies to share too much info about how they catch the cheaters is it?

 

And BTW, it IS the hacker's fault. You don't blame the bank for getting robbed do you? I'm betting you don't work in victim support services...

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

10/01/12 3:16:14 PM#59
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by DMKano
(...)

(...)

And BTW, it IS the hacker's fault. You don't blame the bank for getting robbed do you? I'm betting you don't work in victim support services...

Actually, you do that if the security of the bank has not been as good as it is expected to be. It is precisely such scandals that can force heads to roll due to pressure from public opinion.

 

 

Edit:

In fact, a similar situation happened in Norway in connection to the terrorism act by Breivik.  Although the highest ranked police chief did not commit the terrorist act, the critique against how he handled the situation was large enough to make him resign.  Here is a Swedish article about it: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article15270626.ab.

 

Edit2: In conclusion: while the hackers are certainly to blame, that doesn't mean Arenanet is automatically free from blame; both can actually be blamed.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/01/12 3:26:45 PM#60
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by Betakodo
Originally posted by botrytis

Blizzard has around 7300 employess - http://www.qj.net/mmorpg/tutorials/blizzard-fires-600-employees.html

 

EA has around 7700 also - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Arts

 

A.Net has 250+ employees http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

 

There is a huge discrepency here in number of employees. A.Net will get to them - they did in GW1 and will in GW2.

How many people in those first two companies actually touch the code? Arenanet is more of a programmer's company started by programmers, who then have the aid of NCSoft as the publisher. I sort of question how many GMs they have. Yeah, Anet  may be fixing it slowly, but they're probably more interested in rolling in the dough and making an expansion that they think will have as many buys as GW2.

Client side in a MMO? I don't think even Korean F2P games do that anymore. Maybe  5 years back, but not now.

Client side? Your characters are stored on their server. Most games are client/server - oops client/cloud-based (different name, same idea). Does anyon actually understand programming of games on this site? I wonder.......

Someone else already addressed your post, but to make sure...

 

I think most people are understanding game development more than you. When you code you can determine what the client decides and what the server decides. You can create a game where the client tells the server where it is or a game where the server tells the client where it is (the client simply tells the server that it is hitting a direction key and the server determines how far the client moved etc.). The more you let the client decide, the easier it is to hack. That is what people are referring to when they say the game is client side.

 

Ideally with an MMO pretty much all the client would do is update the graphics and send which keys are pressed to the server. That way the server can make sure the client doesn't move further than possible and it makes it much harder to hack since the server can simply throw away packets that are timed as too old or in the future. However, it appears ANet has put more on the client side than is ideal and that allows easy hacks.

 

The problem with having everything on the server can be user experience. If the client does not guess at where the server will allow it to be, the movement could become very jerky as it waits to be told it is now in a new position and rushes to update. If the server allows the client to predict where it will be to some degree to smooth that jerkiness out, when the client predicts wrong due to lag etc. the player could experience warping as the client finds out it hasn't made it as far as it predicted.

 

So most companies try to find a good balance between the client/server mix and depending on how much they allow the client to control in order to make the user experience better, the more they open themselves up to hacks they have to now create work arounds to shut down.

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