I think its a shame that some of the greatest intellectual properties of our life time were made into MMOs that utterly failed. I remember watching movies and reading books thinking to myself, "I wish I could live or play in this world" and eventually some corporation got involved with the creators of the IP, made a game and it ended up sucking, going free to play or closing down.

HOW CAN THIS BE? Ironically, some of the best MMO's still in play and going strong didn't really have a big following before the game ever came out. I find that kind of funny.

IP is like a paint job on top of the game - the nuts and bolts. I strongly feel that the game should come first and IP should be developed around it, not the other way round.

For example, the Jedi sound nice in the books and movies but they translate poorly into games. As they are portrayed, they are outrageously overpowered compared to anyone else in that universe. Same for the wizards in Eddings' books, they're practically demigods.

Authors rarely create their fiction with games in mind. Also some have no clue about developing good games: quidditch anyone?

Originally posted by Quirhid

IP is like a paint job on top of the game - the nuts and bolts. I strongly feel that the game should come first and IP should be developed around it, not the other way round.

For example, the Jedi sound nice in the books and movies but they translate poorly into games. As they are portrayed, they are outrageously overpowered compared to anyone else in that universe. Same for the wizards in Eddings' books, they're practically demigods.

Authors rarely create their fiction with games in mind. Also some have no clue about developing good games: quidditch anyone?

I didn't play SWG enough to really get that into it but I liked the idea that only a few people could be Jedi after a MASSIVE amount of grinding. Then killing them would make them lose their status...or not logging in for a while? I believe thats what SWG did pre NGE, that was pretty slick.

It is pretty easy, most MMO devs and investors are pretty close minded.

Just taking an IP and slapping on the same MMO mechanics we seen in almost every MMO before doesnt work at all.

Take Elder scrolls. When Bethesda made Daggerfall they custom made the mechanics for the world and they perfected it since then. Suddenly they decide to make a MMO and instead of basing it on their mechanics or make new ones that fits the IP they slap Wows mechanics with a dash of DaoC on top of it.

Same thing with TOR. SW really demands a very different system than a fantasy MMO and yet they use the same.

Either you take a world and creates mechanics for it, or you take mechanics nd create a world for them. You dont slap premade stuff together.

Originally posted by Loke666

It is pretty easy, most MMO devs and investors are pretty close minded.

Just taking an IP and slapping on the same MMO mechanics we seen in almost every MMO before doesnt work at all.

Take Elder scrolls. When Bethesda made Daggerfall they custom made the mechanics for the world and they perfected it since then. Suddenly they decide to make a MMO and instead of basing it on their mechanics or make new ones that fits the IP they slap Wows mechanics with a dash of DaoC on top of it.

Same thing with TOR. SW really demands a very different system than a fantasy MMO and yet they use the same.

Either you take a world and creates mechanics for it, or you take mechanics nd create a world for them. You dont slap premade stuff together.

To be fair a lot of what Bethesda has done in their Elder Scrolls games do not work in a multiplayer environment let alone MMOs. Some of the stuff they're doing with Elder Scrolls Online is bound to be familiar because those mechanics work well in MMOs.

IPs are just a way to boost sales, very few translate well into games.

Even looking at my own work, I can see some of the worlds I've created for single player games simply wouldn't work in a mutliplayer scenario like an MMO.

Originally posted by Loke666

Take Elder scrolls. When Bethesda made Daggerfall they custom made the mechanics for the world and they perfected it since then. Suddenly they decide to make a MMO and instead of basing it on their mechanics or make new ones that fits the IP they slap Wows mechanics with a dash of DaoC on top of it.

We dont know that yet....Im still leaning more on your side on this one....but Im holding my breathe still hopign for the best, but not getting my hopes up too high as to be saddened by the probable dissappointment.

Originally posted by ZigZags

HOW CAN THIS BE?

Ask the SWtOR guys - they have taking a great IP and making a bad game down to a fine art!  Take a rip-roaring, exciting, dynamic franchise, then squeeze all the juicy goodness out of it and serve up the bland, chore-to-play that is SWtOR.

First of all there is no way to transalte some IP's good into a game, unless you totally butcher IP's world but then it is based on some weird variation of IP and not on original IP anymore right?

Secondly - mmorpg's nowadays are treated like everyother game (and not experimental new concept like it was) and IP's will be slaughtered and ridiculed to make a certain type of game.    Mmorpg's will be treated same way like any other IP's games are.     Just google Guardians of Middle Earth.   Basically what's left of IP are characters names and appearance - everything else there is just raping IP's world.

Anyway most IP's does not translate well to mmorpg's and games in general. With some small exceptions.  Besides IP itself won't save a game in eyes of anyone but biggest IP fanboys.

Well ... what "great" IP is left out there, anyway ?

For example, I would love to have a Conan MMO which was made for roleplayers. Tons of races, tons of places, tons of classes and possibilities, lots of roleplaying and adventures. But what is Age of Conan ? Well, whatever it is - its certainly not a game made for roleplayers. More like a ego perspective shooter with nudity and gore (mind, neither nudity nor gore is the problem here, the problem was the game getting advertised as just that), only three races, a race limited (and in general very limited) class system, and little to no point to it. I really view Conan as a heroic world of adventures, not as an weakly balanced PvP battleground.

Or Forgotten Realms. Well, that one was kind of okay-ish, I guess. Never actually tried it but at least it was for roleplayers. Kind of wanted to try it but it fell of my radar. Oh well. Of course a FR game suffers from the basic problem that theres just so much content, how can you possibly ever implement all that.

Planescape. Okay, thats FR power two. Or three. Or four. The endless perfect game, basically.

Vampire: The Masquerade. Its actually coming ! We'll see how good that will be.

Star Wars. Actually I never was that excited about this IP. Jedi are kind of boring after a while. But yeah, make a good game for it, and it could be a great game, anyway.

Either way, I think a great game does NOT need a great IP. If a game is great, the IP of it will turn popular, too. And why would anyone oppose a good new IP ?

Why do you think that's strange?

How many successful films you know that translated into good games?

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Loke666

It is pretty easy, most MMO devs and investors are pretty close minded.

Just taking an IP and slapping on the same MMO mechanics we seen in almost every MMO before doesnt work at all.

Take Elder scrolls. When Bethesda made Daggerfall they custom made the mechanics for the world and they perfected it since then. Suddenly they decide to make a MMO and instead of basing it on their mechanics or make new ones that fits the IP they slap Wows mechanics with a dash of DaoC on top of it.

Same thing with TOR. SW really demands a very different system than a fantasy MMO and yet they use the same.

Either you take a world and creates mechanics for it, or you take mechanics nd create a world for them. You dont slap premade stuff together.

To be fair a lot of what Bethesda has done in their Elder Scrolls games do not work in a multiplayer environment let alone MMOs. Some of the stuff they're doing with Elder Scrolls Online is bound to be familiar because those mechanics work well in MMOs.

Exactly.  Some of the best ideas from ESO games would never work in an MMO like : Killing any NPC, Robbing NPC's, griefing and exploiting, 3rd person combat (personal preference but I hate 1st person view or topdown views).

TESO might not be identical to Skyrim but it is bringing in some heavily added elements and making what doesnt work into an MMO feature such as: Open World, free exploration, open dungeons, actiony combat with active block, and open ended weapon system (even though there is classes).  Most of those elements are something I wish GW2 would of done and even though GW2 is an amazing game and will be playing for a long time I am greatly looking forward to TESO, mainly because of the classes are free to choose what ever weapon they wish and excel at it.  I absolutely love any freedom of class and not the rigid class structure of GW2.

"I have an idea for a game."

^ This right here represents about 0.001% of what goes into making a game. It's why no one will hire you just because you have good ideas for games. Almost nothing about what makes a game great comes from the idea that spawned the game, and almost everything about what makes a game great comes from how that idea is implemented.

IP is one more step removed from "I have an idea for a game." It's "I have a world or story about which one could come up with an idea for a game." No matter how good the IP is, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the game.

Originally posted by ZigZags

I think its a shame that some of the greatest intellectual properties of our life time were made into MMOs that utterly failed. I remember watching movies and reading books thinking to myself, "I wish I could live or play in this world" and eventually some corporation got involved with the creators of the IP, made a game and it ended up sucking, going free to play or closing down.

 

HOW CAN THIS BE? Ironically, some of the best MMO's still in play and going strong didn't really have a big following before the game ever came out. I find that kind of funny.

You answered your own question. MMOs based on popular IPs do badly for the same reason that movies based on video games do badly; people already live in this world through their initial introduction to it, and no derivitive work that comes after will ever measure up. The expectations are always higher than can be met, because your imagination and fantasies will ALWAYS tell a better story than any writer.

Originally posted by ZigZags

I think its a shame that some of the greatest intellectual properties of our life time were made into MMOs that utterly failed. I remember watching movies and reading books thinking to myself, "I wish I could live or play in this world" and eventually some corporation got involved with the creators of the IP, made a game and it ended up sucking, going free to play or closing down.

 

HOW CAN THIS BE? Ironically, some of the best MMO's still in play and going strong didn't really have a big following before the game ever came out. I find that kind of funny.

I dont know maybe you could get an answer from Sony Online Entertainment, they had 2 well known IP's(Star Wars Galaxies, The Matrix Online) and killed both of them. Though in all fairness to SOE Matrix Online was already dying before they bought it. SWG on the other hand had a decent fan following untill the release of the NGE Patch and at that point the game lost 80% of its player base.

Major IP licenses are, imho, a poor fit for an MMORPG. They mostly aren't conducive to a game where there are hundreds of thousands or millions of players, all wanting to make their mark on the world.

If you want to go down that road, you're probably better off going for an IP that is more focused on a world and an aesthetic than on a storyline. In this sense, Warhammer was an excellent choice for an IP license. Didn't save a bad game, but it was a good choice of IP.

Its the same answer to all great things that have been destroyed in the 20th and now 21st century. Publishers/producers gain the mindset that they have the best formula and just know it's what sells the best, they know it. If you take a pinch of "Insert system" and a dash of "insert theme" and combine it all with a splash of "everything else already made". They are always in search of finding that perfect formula. That's all they care about, money, and they are approaching video games the same way they approached the music industry, find the formula and win for the next 10-15 years or until a new sound comes out and then find that formula.

If you are a dev team you can't argue with a producer or a publisher, when the devs are concerned they are your god. Each one of them either wants the highest dollar from the perfect formula or they are forever searching for "that next big thing". Some find it, most don't. And if you fail to make the producers happy, they pull your funding and you are shit out of luck and dead in the water. So developers bend over because they have no choice.

Face it, ALL development teams have a dream or a vision, trying to cross that with the top dollar demanded by those who allow you to make the game in the first place is really hit or miss. Can this amazing idea create a top grossing product? Most likely it would have, if the damned formula guru's stayed the fuck out of it.

If you want to blame anyone for the way MMO's have turned out, blame the damned production companies.

How?

Easy... Just look at the forums here. The vast majority of people don't have the imagination to conceive of anything different from the standard fantasy-MMO. Any mechanics that don't fit into WoW are simply dismissed with 'can never work in multiplayer' and similarly simpleminded excuses. And thus we are left with the usual game in a new skin and minor tweaks, usually referred to as WoW-clones.

How could it possibly go differently when gamedevs have WoW/EQ as the starting point and try to fit in [insert IP here] in that mold rather than looking at what is appealing about an IP and imagining a massively multiplayer game starting from that...