Originally posted by Spiider

Originally posted by rutaq

 

At the end of the day many old school fans want an MMO that is HARD,  something that requires patience, dedication, logical thinking, coordination and social skills.   The current MMOs that I tease as Adeventure's Daycare are designed to require very little of anything,  little patience, little dedication, little logical thinking, little organization and Most importantly little dedication.

 

This. If you don't get it you are not really a hard core gamer but a casual one.

 Just to put my spin on the "hard core gamer"..   

It isn't some elitist badge of honor, it is simply someone that requires "more" to have fun.   The cool part about the "more", is that is builds a foundation for complexity, variety, challenge which fosters interdependance which can feed into building a Community.

                                            Community

                                       Interdependance

                           Complexity, Variety, Challenge

                   more time,   more patience,   more thinking

              more social,   more organziation, more dedication  

Originally posted by ChrisReitz
[mod edit]

Why? Are you so insecure about yourself you need your opinnion validated by other faceless drones of the internet? Or is it you just enjoy hating things someone else may like? This idea of deriving joy out of mutual derision of a product is a little absurd.

I have t oto the recent realization that if an old school MMO was to be released today and it was amazing and full of sandboxy endgame goodness the majority of gamers would find some reason to bitch and complain.  There is so much "woooh is me" and animostity put forth on these boards on a daily basis.  Instead of enjoying a game based on its own merits they insist on hating and trolling others.  It truely makes me sad for the genre and theres no reason why a company doesnt try to recreate anything old school and instead plays it safe recreating certain aspects of the most popular MMO.

I blame the gamers from hence forth.

Originally posted by Sicae
Vanguard, ff14, eq next. Thats your current and future "true" mmo. Now quit whining about WoW and how it ruined mmo's with sunwell, yogg+0, LK heroic and deathwing heroic.

This is it.

All these people in this thread saying they want old are just saying it,none of them really mean it,if they did they would be playing Vanguard.I've played the game for 5 plus years and it still has many things i have not done and discovered,nope i think these people are not ready for old school.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

  So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

for unbalanced classes and lot of bugs

Videogames back in the "Old School Day" were like boardgames there was a tun of them and they each played diffrently have diffrent objectives.. And all that other jaz. Games these days are based off of old school games which were like boardgames but they just picked four of them and duplicated the same game over the past 15 years of gaming. 

The reason for this is because there is millions of people in the world who have not gamed. Why should they even bother comitting the time and effort to dev something compleatly new for people whom have already played these products. Instead just sugar coat the old product make it look more bad ass so people whom did not pick it up when the other company did it pick up there copy instead.

So in conclusion instead of wanting a "New kind of mmo" which may not happen in the near future due to cash cowing. Just go try to play diffrent kind of videogames sence MMOs arn't really "Multiplayer Videogames" anymore just away to take your money. ;'\

Originally posted by smh_alot
People like to forget that a lot of new mechanics and features were introduced as a solution for old problems and annoyances.

 

- Old school MMO gamers started to detest mob grinding for leveling. That's why MMO's like EQ2 and WoW introduced quest based leveling and advertised it.

 

- Old school MMO gamers started to get fed up with enforced grouping and sometimes hour(s) long waits to do anything fun, so solo based leveling got expanded upon.

 

- Harsh death penalties, long travel times, even if they helped give that vibe of a dangerous, vast world, there was a reason that they were gotten rid of in follow-up MMO's, and that's because a lot of the old school MMO gamers disliked them.

 

- Old school MMO gamers weren't happy with spot camping especially in dungeons, so instanced dungeons were introduced, all to yourself and your group.

 

You can get rid of those features, from quests to instanced dungeons etc, but they were introduced as solutions to problems that people had in the first place, and they were received with relief and satisfaction by old school MMO gamers when these features first got introduced.

 

If the issues with the old mechanics weren't regarded as annoyances and problems in the first place, those new features would never have been introduced and happily welcomed by (a very large part of) that first generation of MMO gamers in the first place.

 

So I wonder how an MMO that got rid of all those features again and is made like an oldschool MMO will truly do, and if the first generation MMO gamers that are now pining for such an MMO would be happy or if they'd realize how much they disliked those issues and annoyances for which a lot of later features were one possible solution for. AFter all, MMO games like Vanguard or the EQ classic servers that take you back to that oldschool MMO gaming were minimally successful as well.

Thank you for this clear explanation.

I think the core takeaway from this discussion (and every one like it), is that there are core gamers and core socializers.

Core socializers are the ones looking to play sandbox games or old school games (which weren't even sandboxy, but more chatty because there was often nothing else to do.)

There is a small subsection of gamers who like the very precise, cautious, patient sort of difficulty that EQ brought. They are generally dissatisfied with other forms of difficulty.

Originally posted by defector1968

Originally posted by Kyleran

If a majority of players are happy with these features, why do they leave most MMO's so quickly.

What are they looking for to keep them playing for longer than 2-3 months?

for unbalanced classes and lot of bugs

Or maybe there are a lot more MMOs to try than in EQ's heyday.  When EQ was hot you basically had three options (UO, AC, EQ). This site (MMORPG.COM) lists 597 MMOs. If only eighty of those are live, they're splitting the market.

Nobody stayed in EQ because they loved 100% of it. They stayed because, on balance, it offered most of what they wanted. When DAOC came out, POOF, the PvP players left. When CoH came out, POOF, the "I want to shoot lazer beems" crew left, and so on.

As far as longevity, EQ1 is on it's twenty-first expansion. If you're looking for a game which has held (some) players for over a decade, you know where to find it.

Seriously, with literally hundreds of MMOs to choose from, if you can't find a single one then you're not looking at all.

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

To the OP...

 

The majorrity of MMO players is actually very happy with things like dungeon finders, instance quests crossrealm interaction and such

 

 

So dont say We need, but refer to me and my friends, or even the very lonely I.

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

Not true, you and your friends, and a majority of "mmo" players, do enjoy easy mode mmorpgs that aren't mmorpgs, and that's cool man, rock on they're literally making a game for you everday. There is a large minority of us that agree with much of what the OP is saying. You just want to dismiss it because it somehow in your mind degrades the games you like. His opinion, OUR opinions, can't do that. 

We just want a game that doesn't suck.  A classic mmorpg with a deep world and depth of content and we don't want to just play wack-a-mole combat solo all day. Don't be mad, dude just wants devs to understand we're out here, and if you make our game we're likely to stick with you for longer than the game zergs that eat up swtor and gw2 type games and quit after two months.

Sadly, i've been looking at upcoming releases and they're all action combat wack-a-mole online solo games. Give us an mmorpg, it doesn't need a 100 million dollar budget to be good, you could get it done for far les than that.

Originally posted by KingGator

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

Not true, you and your friends, and a majority of "mmo" players, do enjoy easy mode mmorpgs that aren't mmorpgs, and that's cool man, rock on they're literally making a game for you everday. There is a large minority of us that agree with much of what the OP is saying. You just want to dismiss it because it somehow in your mind degrades the games you like. His opinion, OUR opinions, can't do that. 

We just want a game that doesn't suck.  A classic mmorpg with a deep world and depth of content and we don't want to just play wack-a-mole combat solo all day. Don't be mad, dude just wants devs to understand we're out here, and if you make our game we're likely to stick with you for longer than the game zergs that eat up swtor and gw2 type games and quit after two months.

 

Sadly, i've been looking at upcoming releases and they're all action combat wack-a-mole online solo games. Give us an mmorpg, it doesn't need a 100 million dollar budget to be good, you could get it done for far les than that.

You wrote that and still managed to squeeze in few insinuations and derogatory terms. Your whole post is belittling, insulting.

The problem for you and posters like you, is your hostile attitude and your overflowing bitterness and disdain. How the hell do you expect people to respond to that? What kind of image does that create of old-school players? Social and friendly my ass...

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by KingGator

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

 

When do people like the OP start to realise they are currently a very small minority.

Not true, you and your friends, and a majority of "mmo" players, do enjoy easy mode mmorpgs that aren't mmorpgs, and that's cool man, rock on they're literally making a game for you everday. There is a large minority of us that agree with much of what the OP is saying. You just want to dismiss it because it somehow in your mind degrades the games you like. His opinion, OUR opinions, can't do that. 

We just want a game that doesn't suck.  A classic mmorpg with a deep world and depth of content and we don't want to just play wack-a-mole combat solo all day. Don't be mad, dude just wants devs to understand we're out here, and if you make our game we're likely to stick with you for longer than the game zergs that eat up swtor and gw2 type games and quit after two months.

 

Sadly, i've been looking at upcoming releases and they're all action combat wack-a-mole online solo games. Give us an mmorpg, it doesn't need a 100 million dollar budget to be good, you could get it done for far les than that.

You wrote that and still managed to squeeze in few insinuations and derogatory terms. Your whole post is belittling, insulting.

The problem for you and posters like you, is your hostile attitude and your overflowing bitterness and disdain. How the hell do you expect people to respond to that? What kind of image does that create of old-school players? Social and friendly my ass...

I think you are exaggerating a little, lol. I don't think he's "belitteling" or "insulting". 

And really now, what he wrote is true. There's so few new and hard oldschool MMO's these days it's ridiculous.

Originally posted by rutaq

Originally posted by Graey

Originally posted by rutaq

Originally posted by Khurg

Yeah and no one will play it...even old school mmo players like myself feel that old school is best left in the past....

 

 

 

I'd play it... old school players like myself wish for a return to the golden age of True MMOs and hope the new solo easy mode Adventurer Daycare games become a distant memory...

What is easy mode adventure daycare games in comparison to past MMO's? As one poster stated they are just advanced forms of what most people claimed they wanted in the past...and MMO's are not hard. Let's get past this concept. MMO's are time based. All things in MMO's are designed to waste time and only time.

 

 

      Your observation about "Time" being the only thing MMO challenge is based on is a bit simplistic but I see what you are saying.   To be successful in an old school forced grouping MMO, the "Time" requirement forced you develop your Patience, Thinking skills, Social skills and required a level of dedication to see things through.

 

The same  Hard = Time observation can be applied to anything really.   Lets take a Real Life accomplishment that is generally considered "hard"....

 

1)  Getting your PHD, learning skills, logic skills, dedication.   Done....

2)  Running a Marathon,  Physical exertion until your body changes to accommodate the level of activity, dedication.  Done...

3)  Being a Mom for a big family, organization skills, logic skills, lots and lots and lots of dedication.   Done...

 

At the end of the day many old school fans want an MMO that is HARD,  something that requires patience, dedication, logical thinking, coordination and social skills.   The current MMOs that I tease as Adeventure's Daycare are designed to require very little of anything,  little patience, little dedication, little logical thinking, little organization and Most importantly little dedication.

 

If you want to make it simplistic then yes it is. However even your expanded explanation of it all boils down to simplicity. Given that no MMO can forever change or only changes when the developers put something new is a prime example. Perhaps a clear example of an MMO you think has this. Keep in mind I only started playing MMOs around the time of Final Fantasy 11. That was forced grouping but I didn't think it was hard.

 All the things you decribe are not really things that are hard because MMO's do not change fast enough to combat our adaptable minds. A quest can not change from person to person, nor can an enemy change their tactics mid fight to account for different player makeups.

I like your examples however and yes I still think everything is about time. Of course there are other variables as well. I'm just looking at the examples and seeing what they all come down to.  Just don't think any of it is hard.

I get your point though, you want something that you feel is challenging I can respect that. I just don't see any game like that and I do agree some games are a bit more hand holding than they should be.

I would say that MMO's should probably start with a tutorial on how the mechanics work and just put you in the game. Story is cool as well. Purpose is what people probably mean. Withouth purpose what is the point of the game. I think that is what should be discussed. A better way to give the players purpose.

Originally posted by xDrac

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

You wrote that and still managed to squeeze in few insinuations and derogatory terms. Your whole post is belittling, insulting.

The problem for you and posters like you, is your hostile attitude and your overflowing bitterness and disdain. How the hell do you expect people to respond to that? What kind of image does that create of old-school players? Social and friendly my ass...

I think you are exaggerating a little, lol. I don't think he's "belitteling" or "insulting". 

And really now, what he wrote is true. There's so few new and hard oldschool MMO's these days it's ridiculous.

First, old school MMOs were not hard. They did not require more skill, just more time. Second, the whole notion that there is a type of "true MMO" out there is belittling.

I don't think I am exaggerating. There's too much to pick up from that one post alone. It is absolutely oozing with hate.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by xDrac

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

You wrote that and still managed to squeeze in few insinuations and derogatory terms. Your whole post is belittling, insulting.

The problem for you and posters like you, is your hostile attitude and your overflowing bitterness and disdain. How the hell do you expect people to respond to that? What kind of image does that create of old-school players? Social and friendly my ass...

I think you are exaggerating a little, lol. I don't think he's "belitteling" or "insulting". 

And really now, what he wrote is true. There's so few new and hard oldschool MMO's these days it's ridiculous.

First, old school MMOs were not hard. They did not require more skill, just more time. Second, the whole notion that there is a type of "true MMO" out there is belittling.

I don't think I am exaggerating. There's too much to pick up from that one post alone. It is absolutely oozing with hate.

See you get it. Exactly it's just a time thing. All the points come down to locking you out of things so that you have to grind everything. That's not hard at all its just something that takes a long time.

Originally posted by Quirhid

First, old school MMOs were not hard. They did not require more skill, just more time.

That's just not true, managing a raid with over 60 people requires a great deal more skill than doing the same with today's mini-raids. Hmmm, in Underfoot in Everquest we did the same mob for 7 months every weekday, and couldn't beat it. You have the skill to motivate 60 people through 7 months of failures?

What are you going to tell your guild so it doesn't fall apart, what are you going to say so no one loses motivation, do you know?

What raids post PoP have you done or where are you getting this notion from that old MMO weren't hard?

Do you know what a Tipt trial is?

Originally posted by xDrac

I think you are exaggerating a little, lol. I don't think he's "belitteling" or "insulting". 

And really now, what he wrote is true. There's so few new and hard oldschool MMO's these days it's ridiculous.

Ever stop to think that maybe there's a reason there's so few of them?

Most MMO players don't seem to realize (or care) just how massive an undertaking it is to create a new MMO. Not only the cost, but also the time investment, finding enough of the right type of talent, etc. It's extremely costly. And you take that cost, and see how little interest most of these 'true mmos' seem to generate, and it's really not a huge shocker.

I know you guys want the games you want, but the problem comes in that you guys just can't seem to support those types of games nearly enough to justify other people making them. This gets compounded by the fact that most gamers in your niche group all have their own ideas of what a 'true mmo' should be; usually with no regards for the details, and so your group gets fractured further, even though it's not that large to begin with.

This isn't to say that people aren't still making games that reflect more similarly to the older, more hardcore MMOs, but that they aren't going to be as frequent, or as popular nowadays. You kinda have to take what you can get. There's darkfall 2 that just got announced, archeage is coming around the corner, you have games like Vanguard, Eve, etc. However, MMOs are changing to meet changing demands. Both MMO types (themepark & sandbox) are changing. The lines are getting blurred, and developers are looking for new ways to meet what players are asking for, with the caviat that they have to do it in a way that's physically possible.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Quirhid

First, old school MMOs were not hard. They did not require more skill, just more time.

That's just not true, managing a raid with over 60 people requires a great deal more skill than doing the same with today's mini-raids. Hmmm, in Underfoot in Everquest we did the same mob for 7 months every weekday, and couldn't beat it. You have the skill to motive 60 people through 7 months of failures?

What are you going to tell your guild so it doesn't fall apart, what are you going to say so no one loses motivation, do you know?

What raids post PoP have you done or where are you getting this notion from that old MMO weren't hard?

Do you know what a Tipt trial is?

Well lets go at it then...

I know about leading an over 90-player clan for 6 months to have one of the longest win streaks in a game's history since. Do you know how I did that? I cracked the whip and those who didn't do what I said were free to leave, and those who complained were free to leave as well. How about the rest? -They accepted what I was doing and my results spoke for themselves. I left the internal squabbling, inside and outside politics to someone else, because I have little patience for it and I think ingame politics is juvenile without exceptions. They put me in that position to make sure we win battles and I did just that.

I also know about playing competitive PvP in international ladders, tournaments and events.

You saying what I do is easy? Do I give two shits about someone pulling few too many mobs in a dungeon? -No I don't.