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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Has Arena Net eliminated the support roles?

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49 posts found
  Zzad

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/14/11
Posts: 1217

9/30/12 11:27:39 AM#21

I disagree with OP

I play Elementalist with Staff in GW2 and i trully enjoy taking my part in group as support,

OFC i cannot "stand back and support" like you do in other MMOPRGS,instead i have to be a lot more active...avoiding dmg,doing dps and supporting at the same time.

As an Elementalist i can help with healing my group or just the ones that are tanking the boss at that moment planting a water fountain under their feet to mitigate the dmg they are taking...

I can also slow mobs using freezing spells on the floor...or knoking them!  I love taking my defense Golem into Battle and let it help with its Shields during battle or just using some fire & earth aoe to increase my group Dps!

There is PLENTY to do as a support in GW2...!

  Stayonboard

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/28/10
Posts: 77

9/30/12 1:04:33 PM#22
I think theres some confusion on the roles "support" and "dps". Every class is going to dps even if they are support. I dont think it's possible to spec 100% for support, the game isn't built that way. So just because you play support that doesn't mean you won't be doing attacks like everyone else, thats why content is easier with support, rather than with dps.

So, to go into it further, when people say support they mean traits and abilities that help boon, remove conditions, create combos, heal, or protect yourself and allies.... Rather than only spec for damage followed by more damage. If I'm just farming I'll go heavy dps, because as an engineer grenades + supply create = win everything in pve. But if I went into a dungeon with +2000 power, no toughness/vit and not using any support abilities or traits I'm going to be borderline useless with a 50 silver repair bill. gw2 is very different than other mmos in this regard but you will understand how it fits together at 80. Regardless what the masses said before release, imo the game *is different at 80 with a full traits set and exotic gear.
  KingGator

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 474

9/30/12 1:07:02 PM#23
Originally posted by Yamota

The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.

Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.

Discuss...

Yes they have. I wasn't in beta but for a brief time so I was hoping it would prove not to be the case after leveing some, but they've done away with the trinity and replaced it with an even more simple system. On top of that it isn't a very social game which is what makes an mmorpg imo. This game had some neat intentions but it failed in execution. 

  zevian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 323

9/30/12 1:08:43 PM#24

Guild Wars 2 is overall a fun game, but i appreciate the structure the trinity provides, it gives everyone a roll to perform and get better at.   With the trinity every player at one point will feel like the hero, and those feelings produce attachment to said charcter.

 

Good game, just lacking the structure i appreciate in a mmo.

  Dibdabs

Elite Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2342

9/30/12 1:13:14 PM#25
Originally posted by Yamota

The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role.

Ahh, the game is too subtle for you, I see.  No, the support roles are there, should people decide to spec accordingly and use them.  My Engineer can just run about like a psycho dropping gun turrets and hurling grenades or flame-throwing mobs, or if I want to I can use medical turrets, elixir gun and drop bandages and so forth, or do a bit of both.  Other classes can do either offensive or support (or a mix of the two) if they choose to.

People not using support skills =/= the support role has been eliminated.

  Cyrael

Novice Member

Joined: 12/25/10
Posts: 60

9/30/12 1:15:47 PM#26
As someone who usually plays healers in most MMORPGs, I find the lack of pure support to be my biggest issue with the game so far. When it comes to group content, I find DPS to be incredibly boring. Unfortunately, if you want to be useful to your group, it seems to be either go hybrid or go home - pure support simply isn't viable.
  Dibdabs

Elite Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2342

9/30/12 1:22:23 PM#27
Originally posted by Cyrael
As someone who usually plays healers in most MMORPGs, I find the lack of pure support to be my biggest issue with the game so far. When it comes to group content, I find DPS to be incredibly boring. Unfortunately, if you want to be useful to your group, it seems to be either go hybrid or go home - pure support simply isn't viable.

You find DPS boring, others find exclusively playing a support class utterly boring.  Sorry, but MY idea of playing a Heroic Fantasy MMO is NOT standing at the back in a fancy frock, trying not to get hit, and healing the guy over there who is having all the fun of fighting the mob, toe to toe. If you want to play a dedicated support class you'd better change games, and leave the game to people who like it.

  Aerowyn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

9/30/12 1:26:31 PM#28
Originally posted by Cyrael
As someone who usually plays healers in most MMORPGs, I find the lack of pure support to be my biggest issue with the game so far. When it comes to group content, I find DPS to be incredibly boring. Unfortunately, if you want to be useful to your group, it seems to be either go hybrid or go home - pure support simply isn't viable.

 

my ele plays almost pure support in dungeons.. the option is there and very viable just varies on class

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

9/30/12 1:29:33 PM#29

in any other game, only on raids would you not attack in some form. This is no different.

i think the biggest culture shock isnt that former support players have less to do..its that former dps players have alot more to do.

if you think about the class makeup in any game it turns out like 70% dps 30% tanks and healers usually, so really they just removed that 30% crutch

i think it needs some  improvements, but its certainly a good start.

I remember back in eq where a warrior had what? taunt/kick and maybe bash if they were big.

give it a chance to grow. 

  EricDanie

Tipster

Joined: 2/10/05
Posts: 2244

9/30/12 1:43:47 PM#30
Damage output and enemy health pools are way too big for a support-less full dps group to possibly expect to survive (at least on dungeons), you NEED support be it in the condition of buffs, conditions, combo fields on top of the basic healing and kiting if you wish to make a dungeon run spending less in repairs than you gained in loot.
  GrayGhost79

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4885

9/30/12 1:49:15 PM#31
Originally posted by Yamota

I see alot of posts saying it is possible to spec support but not much details on how. For example, I have a 60ish Elementalist, and no matter how I spec my traits, weapons, change attunement etc my healing is subpar and my CC is inconcistent so I spend atleast 50% doing DPS because all my support skills are on CD.

To be honest I dont see the point in this. I would much rather be able to swap all those DPS skills to more support skills. More healing, debuffs, buffs and CC than DPS. It is boring to do DPS, I never play DPS roles in MMORPGs but in GW 2, so far, I dont seem to have a choice. Some mention 80/20 support/DPS but please tell me which classes can do that because Elementalist sure cannot.

What weapons are you using? I'll break down my guardian support. I'll Highlight the support focused skills for you in each.

Weapons Staff/Hammer and Scepter/Shield or Scepter/Focus and Mace.

Staff

Skill 1 - Mid ranged Light AoE Damage, nothing spectacular.

Skill 2 - Ord that does damage to enemies it passes through, can be detonated to heal allies.

Skill 3 - Places a symbol on the ground that damages enemies, gives allies swiftness and acts as a combo field.

Skill 4 - AoE heal for allies and self, AoE 3 stacks of might for allies for each pulse for a total of 12 or 15 stacks of might.

Skill 5 - Creates a line enemies can't cross. This is awsome in dungeons with corridors. We can hit you but you can't hit us.

 

Hammer

Skill 1 - 3rd attack in the chain creates a symbol of protection

Skill 2 - AoE damage

Skill 3 - Sends out wave that immobilizes all enemies in a line it hits.

Skill 4 - Kock Back

Skill 5 - Creates a ring that foes can not cross.

 

Scepter

Skill 1 - Long range damage

Skill 2 - Targeted AoE damage

Skill 3 - Immobolizes and makes enemy vulnerable

 

Focus

Skill 4 - Passes a ray over enemies and allies in front of you. Damages and Blinds enemies, gives regen and removes one condition from allies.

Skill 5 - Shield that blocks 3 attacks.

 

Shield

Skill 4 - Give up to 5 allies protection and damage enemies.

Skill 5 - Creates a dome that pushes back enemies and protects those inside from projectiles.

 

Mace

 

Skill 1 - 3rd attack in chain heals nearby allies.

Skill 2 - Smash a symbol into the ground that damages enemies and regens allies

Skill 3 - Surround yourself and nearby allies with a protective shield. Damagae enemies that strike protected allies. Give allies protection if not struck.

Now that is simply weapons, I haven't even gone into my support traits and utility skills. I can trait all symbols to heal allies, I can trait my virtue passives to be given to allies, I can use shouts and concecration and medetation skills to heal, buff, remove conditions.

 

I can support just fine without waiting on cooldowns. Though I'm not simply sitting in the back...

 

Now with the first 5 slots covered it seems there is a ton of support with just 2 weapon sets. We haven't gotten into utility skills, virtues or traits yet. Would you like me to break down the support possibilities there?

  gessekai332

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 821

9/30/12 2:02:03 PM#32
Originally posted by Yamota

The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.

Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.

Discuss...

completely disagree. even at lvl 35 dungeons you very much need support roles.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  Purutzil

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2650

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

9/30/12 2:04:31 PM#33
No, they exist on here. Your mashing together cc and support though. You typicalyl don't see a 'support' role in this game providing much in terms of CC and vice versa. They can share one fo those aspects, but they often are limited with a bit longer cd. 
  User Deleted
9/30/12 2:12:14 PM#34

nah i support role on my engineer all the time with explosives. I do think it's odd that they put the trait to make explosives heal players in with the alchemy tree instead of the explosives tree. would go along way to improving the skills if they switch that one thing out.

There's pleanty of healing gear all over the place even dropping off mobs.

Healing doesn't all you to do what people do in other games which is just stand there and look at bars all day tho. That's why they made healing either have to be aimed in a direction or be in an AOE because players would just abuse the gameplay by standing there like they were on their phone.

It's a good system. However I've noticed that just like in many other game titles, players all tend to want to dps instead of doing the other roles even in this game where the roles for healing or support really aren't difficult like they are in other games. The same mmo community laziness still exists.

  Pocahinha

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/09
Posts: 569

9/30/12 2:14:15 PM#35
Originally posted by Yamota

The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.

Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.

Discuss...

Agree...and becomes boring and even 10x more simplified than lets say wow...that has many roles, not boring, has more than 5 attack skills ...etc...

  GrayGhost79

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4885

9/30/12 2:37:21 PM#36
Originally posted by Pocahinha
Originally posted by Yamota

The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.

Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.

Discuss...

Agree...and becomes boring and even 10x more simplified than lets say wow...that has many roles, not boring, has more than 5 attack skills ...etc...

This is only an "opinion" of someone that lacks understanding in the system :)

GW2 can be as simple as a WoW rotation spam if you don't understand it, but a great deal more complex if you learn it.

  Techleo

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1967

Is it over yet...

9/30/12 2:49:03 PM#37
I definitely think they left the option in play to be a support role. I can easily rig up a support role engineer. Really depends on your traits , gear and general understanding of the Combo system. The Dual Engineer support .. amazing, just amazing!
  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4508

9/30/12 2:56:28 PM#38
Originally posted by Yamota

The more I play the game and the more classes I play it seems to me more apparent that they have not only got rid of the trinity system but they have basically eliminated the support role. Meaning the role which stands back, buffs, debuffs, crowd control, heals and you name it. Basically anything that is NOT DPS cannot be done consistently.

Is that a good thing? I feel not, it just narrows the scope of what you can do as currently the only thing you can do consistently is DPS with a sprinkle of support skills.

Discuss...

You couldn't be more wrong.

In fact, certain classes EXCEL at support, and are a huge benefit to have in groups. Namely:

Guardians, Necromancers, Elementalists, and Mesmers.

Every class can support, though. However, what you need to realize is that support in this game isn't as simple as 'i'm a support role, take me and win'. There are different types of support, just as there are different types of damage, and different ways to defend / build for survivability. Skill synergy is what rules this game, as opposed to blanket archetypes.

For example, when I run dungeons & tend to go w/ a conditions / well based necro build. I specialize in AoE conditions management & healing, as well as doing some decent AoE dmg. Not only do a bring a ton of AoE healing, but I also bring useful support abilities like vulnerability stacking (increases how much dmg things take), converting boons on enemies into conditions, and converting conditions on allies into boons. I also bring useful CC in the form of fears, cripple, and chills. The support isn't so powerful that my allies can just faceroll their keyboards and win, but it makes fights a lot more manageable, and gives people quite a long time to recover from bad situations or mistakes.

Another example would be anti-projectile support. Some classes (like mesmers) can toss out tons of skills & aoe that reflects projectiles back at enemies. Mesmers in particular are so good at this, that they can keep it going for almost the entire fight. However, it does absolutely nothing against melee, or explosive specced enemies. This is where synergy is really important, because every spec has a weakness, and where one person's weakness is, another person can makeup that difference. I.E. You may have a mesmer who's great at dealing w/ enemy ranged attackers, but terrible against melee. In which case, you may bring with you a thief or a guardian to occupy the melee enemies, or keep them blinded.

- Granted, most skills have some type of damage component (even if small). However there is quite a large difference between a support skill's damage, and a damage-heavy skill's damage. My warrior may throw down a 100blades for 4-8k dmg, however my necro may toss out an AoE well that only does 2-4k damage, but also heals everyone in the group for 1-2k, and makes all the enemies take 10% more damage for the next 10 seconds. The warrior's going to be the one burning down the target, while the necro is assisting across the board, giving people more chances to stay alive, as well as negating a lot of what the enemies are doing.

  Dibdabs

Elite Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2342

9/30/12 2:59:39 PM#39
Originally posted by itgrowls

However I've noticed that just like in many other game titles, players all tend to want to dps instead of doing the other roles even in this game where the roles for healing or support really aren't difficult like they are in other games. The same mmo community laziness still exists.

I see that soooo often.  There's a certain type of player in MMOs who, in a group, just wants "to get their gun off and bask in the glory".  It's usually THEM whining about the lack of a support class, because it means they have to start thinking.   :D

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4508

9/30/12 3:05:46 PM#40
Originally posted by Dibdabs
Originally posted by itgrowls

However I've noticed that just like in many other game titles, players all tend to want to dps instead of doing the other roles even in this game where the roles for healing or support really aren't difficult like they are in other games. The same mmo community laziness still exists.

I see that soooo often.  There's a certain type of player in MMOs who, in a group, just wants "to get their gun off and bask in the glory".  It's usually THEM whining about the lack of a support class, because it means they have to start thinking.   :D

They're also typically the first ones to rage quit in dungeons & sPvP.

GW has always been a game that favors more balanced setups (or group compositions). GW2 is no different in that regard. If you're going to go super glass cannon DPS (as most people tend to do), then it's extremely important that you both have someone up front taking most of the hits, but are also a good enough player to avoid getting shot at the whole fight.

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