I've played TL2 once as a berserker on normal.  I'm now rerolling on veteran difficulty.

TL2 trees are mainly active trees with skill ups for those active skills.  TL2 skill trees aren't really trees as they have no prerequisities other than levels.

You can mix and match from three different "trees" however you like, with the restriction being which skills are available at each level.  In this way D3 and TL2 are similar.  But D3 allows you to make any build you want on the fly.  TL2 has an unforgiving system that only allows you to change the last three skill point allocations.  Full respecs are available, but they will flag you as a "cheater".  Unless you use a workaround that exploits the system to prevent that flag from appearing.

Any modern ARPG developer that prevents full respecs is clinging to the idea that a player needs to start over if they made a mistake or wants to try a different build.  They try to make up for a lack of content by urging rerolls.  Good luck getting players today to buy such a game in massive numbers.

The overall story and mythology  are weak.  Like, really, really weak.  It makes D3 story telling look like it was written by George R.R. Martin.  The monsters in the game are pretty forgettable.

With that being said, the game was fun from the start, assuming you picked the right difficulty.  The itemization is good but not great.  Both D3 and TL2 really dumbed down the itemization and stats of D2.  When something works, there's no reason to try and fix it.

Overall I'd give TL2 a 6/10 with points deducted for dated and extremely cartoony graphics, lack of closed servers, lack of full respecs, poor group finding tools (can't easily match with people on the same quest), weak itemization and over reliance on resists(in this case elemental armor).

D3 would get a 7.5/10 from me for more diverse builds, ease of full respecs, much more content, closed servers and slightly more fun combat.

I couldn't possibly grade POE.  That game wasn't fun in my two tries on the kind of class I always like.  I hated the low level skills and combat, the art direction, the music, the passive only skill tree and poor grouping tools.  It's simply not very fun to earn a skill point and only get things like +5 strength.  For pure fun per level increase, TL2 wins hands down.  Unlocking new skills on a level up or increasing their power is great.  Something severely lacking in D3 and POE.

There's plenty of room out there for a true heir to D2.  It's just not going to be D3, TL2 or POE.

I enjoy Torchlight 2 more then any other diablo type game Ive played.

PoE was the worst. I dunno why but I got extremely bored right from start

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Overall I'd give TL2 a 6/10 with points deducted for dated and extremely cartoony graphics, lack of closed servers, lack of full respecs, poor group finding tools (can't easily match with people on the same quest), weak itemization and over reliance on resists(in this case elemental armor).

 

D3 would get a 7.5/10 from me for more diverse builds, ease of full respecs, much more content, closed servers and slightly more fun combat.

 Uh, what? TL2 is a longer game with more stuff in it than D3 is. It has taken me way longer to complete TL2 than D3!

I pre-ordered the game months ago, I played on release day, got to level 50 something, and then I just couldnt drag myself to log in again...

Its not even the graphics, its the utterly pointless storyline and loot hunting in a single player game... Had they implemented a secure server where your progress is there for the world to see and play legit with people, I would have dropped diablo in the blink of an eye.

TL2 doesnt take itself too seriously & is thus fun which for me is of primary importance.

TL2 will have people playing it for a long time, the TL community is strong & lived a long time and thats with no multiplayer in the first game. TL2 with the added multiplayer will be quite a busy hive for a few years yet.

One of the things that kept so many players playing TL1 was the many combinations of skills in the skill tree, this will continue with TL2.

For me TL & TL2 represents everything I loved about Diablo (unsurprising given Runics founding fathers) with a lot of decent improvements and some logical progression of the genre. I stayed away from D3 after I found I didnt enjoy D2 anywhere near as much as Diablo and had to force myself to grind out to the end of D2 and then never replayed, something I never had trouble with in Diablo. Besides at the Price Runic is asking for a sequel to a game I quite enjoyed with absoultely no DRM...... Its an instant purchase.

Lastly the Kotaku Piece is just an Opinion piece and only the opinions of one writer therefore should not be taken too seriously IMHO. Far be it for me to suggest they may have posted a controversial Opinion Piece to generate traffic.....

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

I want to wait a month or so to see how many people are still playing TL2.  I'm pretty close to buying it, but I have a feeling it won't last me as many hours as even D3 did.

 

That article was ridiculously biased, especially by the glow of a newly released game.

Both are largely single player games with some very limited multi-player elements.  Why would how many people playing it matter at all?

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Any modern ARPG developer that prevents full respecs is clinging to the idea that a player needs to start over if they made a mistake or wants to try a different build.  They try to make up for a lack of content by urging rerolls.  Good luck getting players today to buy such a game in massive numbers.

 

I think this is a moot point given the difficulty choices. Moreover when you actually look at most of the skills, which have either %weapon dps or *based on character level, there is not much difference if you have +10 or +12 (thus 2 ponts to assign wrongly). But on the other hand, insane people did reroll for a single point in axe mastery instead of sword mastery in d2...

What is personally annoying for me is the targeting and movement system, together with the quite questionable choice of allowing projectiles to fly trough objects, but not spells,  as a mage you are nearly constantly out of los, due to stairs, bushes, urns, rocks...

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by ShakyMo
-SNIP-

TL2 is a classic. I'm going to say something controversial. In my opinion its the best ARPG ever, evenbetter than original diablo

That is a HUGE call. That said I can see how you can make that argument. As I said in my first post in this thread, TL2 encapsulates everything I loved from Diablo and adds to it so you could be onto something.

Originally posted by 7star

What do you think? How does TL2 stack up to D3 from your experience so far?

For me, I slightly prefer the D3 art style (less cartoony, darker) but I still like that of TL2m, which is starting to grow on me. I also like the D3 combat animations a bit better, but I am still only to level 5-6 on all four TL2 classes. Yes, I know it's still early.

But I really do love the options for offline and LAN modes in TL2. I also love the price point difference. I am having a lot of fun with TL2, so back to it now.

It's really quite simple.

From a gameplay standpoint, Torchlight 2 just blows Diablo 3 out of the water. It's superior on every lvl. Actually interesting loot, fun & rewarding skills, good online & offline group play. Good single player experience. Pleanty of exploration outside of the the main questline. Mod community support. You really can't get much more bang for your buck off a 20$ game. It really should be a no-brainer if you like dungeon crawlers. Unless you are so strapped for cash that 20$ is a huge investment for you.

What D3 does have over Torchlight 2, is graphics. TL2 is very cartoony. D3 is still cartoony, but it hides it w/ a very gothic setting.

So basically, if you don't care about good gameplay, and all you really want in a video game is a gothic art style, then D3 is for you. If a game having good gameplay is important to you, and you enjoy dungeon crawlers, then there really is no good reason to not get torchlight 2. It's just a really damn good, fun game.

Originally posted by TheCrow2k

Originally posted by ShakyMo
-SNIP-

TL2 is a classic. I'm going to say something controversial. In my opinion its the best ARPG ever, evenbetter than original diablo

 

That is a HUGE call. That said I can see how you can make that argument. As I said in my first post in this thread, TL2 encapsulates everything I loved from Diablo and adds to it so you could be onto something.

^

I wouldn't disagree (when it comes to dungeon crawlers at least). TL2 is what diablo 3 should've been (aside from the graphics). Some of the original creators for the diablo IP worked on TL2, and they not only improved upon the ideas they started to in D1 & 2, but they also learned from the mistakes D3 made, and tweaked their game accordingly prior to release.

Damn good game.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
Lol did someone say Torchlight 2 had weak itemisation compared to BUY BUY BUY on out real money auction house 3!
 

Nope.  I said it had weak itemization.  So does D3.  Both have weak itemization compared to D2.

TL2 pluses over D3:

1) offline mode

2) sending pets to town

3) $20

4) actual stat allocation

5) skill tree with actual skill upgrades

6) D2-like soundtrack

D3 pluses over TL2:

1) closed servers - HUGE advantage in multiplayer

2) much better graphics and monsters, non blocky models and terrain

3) More interesting classes

4) More D2 like leveling grind (paragon)

5) More interesting universe and story

6) More adult oriented minions

7) Developer dedicated to expanding/improving the game with a team large enough to do it in a reasonable amount of time (Runic is uber casual with their games and updates).

Neither game implemented runewords, charms or many other things that made D2 special.

Right now I'm playing TL2.  It's a great single player game but full of hackers that are already able to cheat without having a flag. 

I played TL1 for about two weeks and got bored.  They totally borked item drops in that game somewhere around level 40.  I did keep up with checking out the multiplayer mods people were proposing but they never beared fruit.

I expect to play a little longer in TL2, but it will likely be a very niche game a few months from now.  And you'll never know if someone hacked their character.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

 

TL2 pluses over D3:

 

1) offline mode

2) sending pets to town

3) $20

4) actual stat allocation

5) skill tree with actual skill upgrades

6) D2-like soundtrack

 

D3 pluses over TL2:

 

1) closed servers - HUGE advantage in multiplayer

2) much better graphics and monsters, non blocky models and terrain

3) More interesting classes

4) More D2 like leveling grind (paragon)

5) More interesting universe and story

6) More adult oriented minions

7) Developer dedicated to expanding/improving the game with a team large enough to do it in a reasonable amount of time (Runic is uber casual with their games and updates).

Obviously no one can argue with an opinion, but 3-6 seem wildly subjective. I think the Engineer is much more interesting than Barbarian, in fact I've always groaned at Diablo's slavish implementation of the classic Wizard/Fighter/Rogue trope. While TL2's story was sort of hand-wavy, it doesn't sink to the level of D3's narrative fail.

And why is "adult minions" listed as a plus for D3? I like my ferret far more than I ever liked my Paladin, but more importantly my ferret is a viable combat partner without a thousand dollars of gear festooning it. No comparision between the two games minions should ever end up with D3 ahead.

Originally posted by Darkmoth

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

 

TL2 pluses over D3:

 

1) offline mode

2) sending pets to town

3) $20

4) actual stat allocation

5) skill tree with actual skill upgrades

6) D2-like soundtrack

 

D3 pluses over TL2:

 

1) closed servers - HUGE advantage in multiplayer

2) much better graphics and monsters, non blocky models and terrain

3) More interesting classes

4) More D2 like leveling grind (paragon)

5) More interesting universe and story

6) More adult oriented minions

7) Developer dedicated to expanding/improving the game with a team large enough to do it in a reasonable amount of time (Runic is uber casual with their games and updates).

Obviously no one can argue with an opinion, but 3-6 seem wildly subjective. I think the Engineer is much more interesting than Barbarian, in fact I've always groaned at Diablo's slavish implementation of the classic Wizard/Fighter/Rogue trope. While TL2's story was sort of hand-wavy, it doesn't sink to the level of D3's narrative fail.

And why is "adult minions" listed as a plus for D3? I like my ferret far more than I ever liked my Paladin, but more importantly my ferret is a viable combat partner without a thousand dollars of gear festooning it. No comparision between the two games minions should ever end up with D3 ahead.

I think

Barb > Berserker

DH > outlander

Wizard > embermage

WD & Monk > Engineer

I think the three classes with real counterparts are just more enjoyable in D3.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by Darkmoth

Obviously no one can argue with an opinion, but 3-6 seem wildly subjective. I think the Engineer is much more interesting than Barbarian, in fact I've always groaned at Diablo's slavish implementation of the classic Wizard/Fighter/Rogue trope. While TL2's story was sort of hand-wavy, it doesn't sink to the level of D3's narrative fail.

And why is "adult minions" listed as a plus for D3? I like my ferret far more than I ever liked my Paladin, but more importantly my ferret is a viable combat partner without a thousand dollars of gear festooning it. No comparision between the two games minions should ever end up with D3 ahead.

I think

Barb > Berserker

DH > outlander

Wizard > embermage

WD & Monk > Engineer

I think the three classes with real counterparts are just more enjoyable in D3.

I realize you do, which is why I said I can't argue with an opinion. I still disagree.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

 

TL2 pluses over D3:

 

1) offline mode (and lan mode, for me this is a real plus for playing in Hardcore modes with friend without the internet lag.)

2) sending pets to town

He can buy potion and scroll too and you can give him magic scroll. Skill and attribute customization could have beed good for choosing what kind of role you want it to be tough.

3) $20

4) actual stat allocation

5) skill tree with actual skill upgrades

6) D2-like soundtrack

7) Better loot drop at my opinion.

8) You can choose your difficullties right from the start, you are not forced to play normal mode.

9)You can create mod

10) The mapworks ,for me this is a big features, in D3 you do the story over and over. With the mapworks you do dungeons when ever you want.

11) The class are not lock into one play style, the engineer can be a tank, a dps with two hand sword, a ranged with canon etc.. In D3 you can only choose what skill you will use but that doesnt change the play style much if not at all.

12) Weapon animations, what i mean by that is if i use claws, my character fight with claws style animation or if i use 2 hands weapon, he will swings his weapons with is two hands. In D3 my monk for example put his weapon in his back and fight only with his fist, no matter what weapons he use always the same animation. This is very lame, i really dont know why blizzard did such stupid things, i mean come on such lazy move.

 

D3 pluses over TL2:

 

1) closed servers - HUGE advantage in multiplayer

2) much better graphics and monsters, non blocky models and terrain

Yes i prefer D3 but i dont think there are much better, Textures are more details and there are more poly in D3, still this is a matter of taste, some prefer more cartoonish graphics.

3) More interesting classes

Cant agree there since in TL2 you can actually customize your class, for me this is more interesting. No matter the name of the classe for me this is the style play who change everything. Even the personality of the class in D3 are statics, again my monk is such a rightfull and holy pricks when he talk. So there is no imagination there you play a pre-define role.

4) More D2 like leveling grind (paragon)

Im not sure what you mean here by comparing paragon and D2, maibe im missing something.

5) More interesting universe and story

The story in D3 is more alive that truth, but if you compare D1 with TL1 and D2 with TL2, the story are almost the same except from the name and the lore. And yeah cinematics in Diablo 2 and 3 are better. Now we will need TL3 to compare the story with D3.

6) More adult oriented minions

Dont know what you mean by that? Did you mean more horror and gore monster? If so than yes in D3 this is more dark and gritty than TL2 but again this is a matter of tatse.

7) Developer dedicated to expanding/improving the game with a team large enough to do it in a reasonable amount of time (Runic is uber casual with their games and updates).

Blizzard are not known for the fast release.. even with all the ressources they have im not expect an expension fro a long time, 1 years if we are lucky 2 or 3 if we are not.

Again i will not be surprise if they selling the expension for 60$ or so.. for 1 or 2 more class and 1 more Act..

Runics has already state that all DLC will be free, so now lets just see who will be fast to release new content.

 

Neither game implemented runewords, charms or many other things that made D2 special.

 

Right now I'm playing TL2.  It's a great single player game but full of hackers that are already able to cheat without having a flag.

I dont care about the Hacker, it's not like the game was pvp oriented. I dont play with them. I play D3 and TL2 with real friends mostly or so. And who know maibe runics will decided to open a closed server in the future.

You said TL2 is a great single player game, i will respond to that TL2 is a single and a multi player game, you can do both just like D3.

 

I played TL1 for about two weeks and got bored.  They totally borked item drops in that game somewhere around level 40.  I did keep up with checking out the multiplayer mods people were proposing but they never beared fruit.

 I pass TL1 only once, not because the game was bad but because there where no multi player otion. In any case i enjoy it.

I expect to play a little longer in TL2, but it will likely be a very niche game a few months from now.  And you'll never know if someone hacked their character.

D3 is a nich game too, a lots of people bought the game play it and pass it once and probably never touch it again. or they will replay in somesof months or years. Not everyone like grinding for months just for items in these kind of games.

You see for me TL2 has way more features that i like than D3, but that doesnt mean i dont enjoy D3 either.

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

 

4) More D2 like leveling grind (paragon)

Im not sure what you mean here by comparing paragon and D2, maibe im missing something.

Ever tried to reach level 99 in D2?  D3 paragon levels mimic this.  I don't believe TL2 has a long grind to 100