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General Gaming  » Inform me why Windows 8 is bad for PC gaming

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97 posts found
  Jemcrystal

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1354

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

9/28/12 9:24:12 AM#41
Still, if I wanted to refuse to use Windows 8, could I?  I mean is it possible to stay at Windows 7 forever?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6EoRBvdVPQ

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2499

9/28/12 9:25:37 AM#42
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
Still, if I wanted to refuse to use Windows 8, could I?  I mean is it possible to stay at Windows 7 forever?

Sure you can.  There are still people using WIndows 95 somewhere.

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4205

9/28/12 9:26:42 AM#43
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Jemcrystal
Still, if I wanted to refuse to use Windows 8, could I?  I mean is it possible to stay at Windows 7 forever?

Sure you can.  There are still people using WIndows 95 somewhere.

haha true but no new software works on it...

My 3D models
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  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/28/12 9:52:05 AM#44
For now.......
  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/28/12 9:58:54 AM#45
What's to stop for instance, Microsoft making dx12 metro only, then with win 9 phasing out dx 9 support, then later dx 11.
Or just dropping dx support in the desktop altogether, making some equivelent new thing for metro and having metro run dx games in compatabilty mode.

sure Microsoft aren't going to stop business software working through the desktop with all the bespoke and legacy systems out there, but there is nothing stopping them making new games metro only so that they have to fun on "their platform". Microsoft have long had ambitions to xboxify pc gaming.
  marganculos

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/08/04
Posts: 204

9/28/12 9:59:14 AM#46

windows 8.. never ever! i will skip them like i skipped Vista and went directly from XP to W7 :)

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10878

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/28/12 10:11:35 AM#47


Originally posted by Nevulus

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by hfztt

Originally posted by Caldrin Microsoft wil not close off their desktop OS LOL.. they know its one of the main reasons they have been top of the pile for many years when it comes to desktop and server OS.. If they did it would be like shooting themselves in the head...    
Look up Windows RT. They already did it.
Windows RT is specifically for Tablets running ARM processors. So yes Windows RT has no desktop, only Metro interface and thus requires the Marketplace to install apps on it. Windows RT is no different than iOS is for the iPad.  What's the problem here?  Devs make a jitload of money on iOS! Eventho they have to pay 40% to Apple. You don't hear that Minecraft guy complaining there?  Hypocrit! Windows 8 for PC still has a desktop and so will the tablets running the Pro version (with Intel chips). Which means you DO NOT need to use the marketplace to install apps. Not to mention that pretty much all Windows 8 / RT tablets will have USB ports, so I am sure people find a way around the marketplace there as well. So I do not see the problem, other than developers don't want to pay a fee to have their products end up in Microsoft Marketplace! But hypocritically have no issue with Apple's App Store!  /facepalm
Someone gets it. Before people ready their pitchforks and call to burn the witch, read closely what was said above. It is more accurate than any other post before it.

Bottomline: Win 8 will still run apps NOT from its marketplace.




Some actual, researched facts.

  • "Metro" apps must be signed with a registered developer certificate. It doesn't matter if you're installing that app on a phone, a tablet or a PC.
  • Side loading "Metro" apps on a PC requires the user to edit the registry to allow signed, side loaded apps to run.
  • Desktop apps will be installed the same way they always have and aren't treated any differently.


Given how slow new releases of Windows are adopted, it will be awhile before "Metro" style apps are the default. It may be forever. It really depends on how much things get pushed to the Metro style apps.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10878

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

9/28/12 10:25:19 AM#48


Originally posted by ShakyMo
What's to stop for instance, Microsoft making dx12 metro only, then with win 9 phasing out dx 9 support, then later dx 11. Or just dropping dx support in the desktop altogether, making some equivelent new thing for metro and having metro run dx games in compatabilty mode.sure Microsoft aren't going to stop business software working through the desktop with all the bespoke and legacy systems out there, but there is nothing stopping them making new games metro only so that they have to fun on "their platform". Microsoft have long had ambitions to xboxify pc gaming.


There isn't anything other than Microsoft that could stop Microsoft from closing their system off. I don't think it's likely to happen any time soon, mostly because of game developers. Game developers still have options, and they are generally pushing the edge of what can be done on systems. They could just jump to OpenGL for games. They could even just make the jump to Linux or Cross Platform development. Microsoft will restrict development on their game console to their tools, but they can't do this if the hardware platform itself remains open. If Microsoft loses major game developers, their system suddenly loses a large part of the market. I don't think they're ready to do that.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Senkensha

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/12
Posts: 16

9/28/12 4:17:34 PM#49

I feel like all of the criticisms regarding Windows 8 comes from kids who aren't willing to actually TRY the new operating system and just look at screenshots and say "Wow, I don't have a touch screen, this must be a bad operating system.  I really like Windows 7 because I've used it for years and I don't like change."

 

Here's a thought.  TRY IT!!!  It's really not that bad.  I don't have a touch screen.  I use a mouse and keyboard.  I like VIDEO GAMES.  And I play them, a lot.  And they work well.

 

Just sayin', your criticisms make ZERO sense and sound like a whiny five year old who doesn't understand computers.  Thanks for playing.  Have a fantastic day.

  Nitth

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/10
Posts: 3345

Magic Propels my Rolly Chair.

9/28/12 7:20:52 PM#50


Originally posted by Ikonis

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by hfztt

Originally posted by Caldrin Microsoft wil not close off their desktop OS LOL.. they know its one of the main reasons they have been top of the pile for many years when it comes to desktop and server OS.. If they did it would be like shooting themselves in the head...    
Look up Windows RT. They already did it.
Windows RT is specifically for Tablets running ARM processors.
  So much mis information. WinRT is an api for the metro ui.
You should get your facts straight before claiming mis information

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT

 

Windows RT is Windows 8 for ARM.

 

This hoopla is nothing more than knee jerk reactions to partial information, and 'what if' scenarios.


Wana Try that again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime

I will admit that the definitions have become distorted, but now that everyone is on the same page..

With WinRT you can deploy in both(or all) environments so i don't see why the quoted posters tablet argument is relevant?


TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  DOGMA1138

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/11
Posts: 477

9/28/12 11:37:01 PM#51


Originally posted by Ikonis

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by hfztt

Originally posted by Caldrin Microsoft wil not close off their desktop OS LOL.. they know its one of the main reasons they have been top of the pile for many years when it comes to desktop and server OS.. If they did it would be like shooting themselves in the head...    
Look up Windows RT. They already did it.
Windows RT is specifically for Tablets running ARM processors.
  So much mis information. WinRT is an api for the metro ui.
You should get your facts straight before claiming mis information   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT   Windows RT is Windows 8 for ARM.   This hoopla is nothing more than knee jerk reactions to partial information, and 'what if' scenarios.
 

Actually he is right WinRT is one of the trade marketed names for Windows Runtime API, Windows 8 RT is a completely different thing.

There is Windows 8 which one of its versions is called Windows 8 RT which is the ARM only version, it comes with the Metro Interface but cannot run any Windows native code.

Tthere is also Windows Phone 8 which has nothing to do with Windows 8 which Windows 8 RT is based on for mobile phones.

The only reason why Windows 8 RT is "closed" is because it does not support native unmanaged code of normal windows applications due to its support for ARM based devices.

Currently the only device that will use Windows RT is the Microsoft Surface(the Surface Pro will use Windows 8 Pro), i actually highly doubt that we'll see many tables with Windows RT even tho its licenses for OEM's are insanely cheap(around 25$)  since Windows 8 RT cannot run any normal windows apps, and even Metro apps have to be specifically coded for Windows 8 RT due to a more limiting API.

Microsoft ATM has created a real mess for developers, Windows 8, Windows 8 RT, Metro Apps for Windows 8, Metro Apps for Window 8 RT(easier to port but still not the same), Windows Phone 8, and Windows Phone 7 all have to be developed for separately..

  KyutaSyuko

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/30/05
Posts: 233

9/28/12 11:58:12 PM#52

I've been running Windows 8 RP on a test laptop and I haven't had any issues with it.  Sure you're greeted with the Live Tiles upon login and everything else is a metro app, and there's a Marketplace where you can download free and paid for apps like on iOS or Android, but I haven't  had any issues installing and running anything that works with Windows 7.

Installed Diablo 3 and was able to run it (though the laptop itself couldn't handle it) as well as TERA and Guild Wars 2.  Both of which ran fine for the most part.  The laptop isn't really much of a gaming laptop.

The only move twoards a Closed Platform that I see is the inclusion of a Market Place.  I doubt Microsoft will do much more than that.  Would be pretty stupid on their part imo.

As for Linux as a rival.  Some of the distros like Ubuntu and its siblings are fairly user-friendly.  I believe the average computer user would be able to use them with minimal effort in comparison to the effort they would use to do the same thing in Windows.

  Cod_Eye

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1021

9/29/12 2:25:25 AM#53

The PC is an open platform and should remain an open platform, Also Microsoft have stipulated that they will not give certification to any game that has an 18 rating.  Its not about whether the OS is good or not, its the direction its going and how its going to impact on the industry, and more importantly  how its going to impact on us as PC gamers.

Here is an interesting news item from the UK's BBC news site.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19760977

 

  Brenelael

Guide

Joined: 10/19/06
Posts: 3971

Pointing out the Obvious to the Oblivious since 2006

9/29/12 9:30:43 AM#54

I deal with normal people and the issues they are having with their computers on a daily basis. These people range from the tech savy to the completely computer illiterate. The vast majority of these people will absolutely despise Windows 8. Why you ask? Because it is very different than what they have gotten comfortable with in a Windows PC. Buying a new computer with Windows 8 preinstalled will violently knock them out of their comfort zone. Windows 8 will be another ME/Vista in the traditional PC market for this reason.

 

Now in the Tablet and Smart Phone markets it will be well recieved however and people will love it. Why you ask? Because the new UI is taylor made for these devices. It basically takes the multi-desktop setup of Android and evolves it to the next level. This will be seen as a huge step in the right direction for the mobile markets.

 

As for gaming on Windows 8 you may want to wait awhile. As others have stated there will be some major issues for the first year after release as there always is with a new OS from Microsoft. Although Windows 8 does offer some gains in the resource management area they will not be really significant as far as gaming is concerned.

 

Microsoft really has their heads up their respective asses on this one. The new UI while very good on touch devices is going to cause a huge backlash from traditional mouse and keyboard users. This could be easily avoided by just enabling the traditional start menu on regular PC devices or by at least giving users their choice of interfaces but for whatever reason they have decided to force it on everyone equally. This is going to make Windows 8 one of the worst fiascos in Microsoft's history when it starts to come preinstalled on traditional PC setups. I sincerely hope that the guys and gals at Microsoft have some good heavy duty parkas to put on because they are going to get hit by one hell of a shit-storm here in a few months.

 

Bren

while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1855

9/29/12 3:20:27 PM#55

My main issue isn't related to the OS itself, it's related to Windows 8 Secure boot.

Secure boot prevents rootkits from launching on boot, for example someone plugging a USB drive in a PC at a workplace. Secure boot hardware will ask for a key, if the OS can provide the right key it's allowed to boot, if it's not the PC will simply not boot.

For Microsoft it's easy to enforce this for PC manufacturers, if someone wants to sell a Windows 8 PC, they will need secure boot for Windows, locking every other OS down (for example, some Windows 8 PC can not boot Windows XP in early tests, it doesn't provide the right key, the hardware won't let it boot, mind you this is on specific Windows 8 certified hardware which isn't commercially available yet).

Now comes the issue, Linux, which has far less hardware contacts and far less money, will have a much harder time getting a signed key than Microsoft, which means running Windows 8 alongside Linux could become a lot trickier, although many distros are working to find solutions around this issue.

  Magaskaweel

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/12
Posts: 37

9/29/12 3:26:24 PM#56

making it a closed platform would be illegal, because they dont manufacture the PCs themselves. Apple can do it because its not only their software, but also their hardware. They make their own computers.

 

If Microsoft pushes a OS on 'MY' computer that doesnt allow me to install and run whatever I want, then they are violating the law. They have been down this road before and it didnt end well for them, so I dont think it will be a closed platform at all.

  JeroKane

Elite Member

Joined: 2/21/06
Posts: 5290

9/29/12 3:26:25 PM#57
Originally posted by DOGMA1138

 


Originally posted by Ikonis

Originally posted by Nitth  

Originally posted by JeroKane

Originally posted by hfztt

Originally posted by Caldrin Microsoft wil not close off their desktop OS LOL.. they know its one of the main reasons they have been top of the pile for many years when it comes to desktop and server OS.. If they did it would be like shooting themselves in the head...    
Look up Windows RT. They already did it.
Windows RT is specifically for Tablets running ARM processors.
  So much mis information. WinRT is an api for the metro ui.
You should get your facts straight before claiming mis information   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT   Windows RT is Windows 8 for ARM.   This hoopla is nothing more than knee jerk reactions to partial information, and 'what if' scenarios.
 

 

Actually he is right WinRT is one of the trade marketed names for Windows Runtime API, Windows 8 RT is a completely different thing.

There is Windows 8 which one of its versions is called Windows 8 RT which is the ARM only version, it comes with the Metro Interface but cannot run any Windows native code.

Tthere is also Windows Phone 8 which has nothing to do with Windows 8 which Windows 8 RT is based on for mobile phones.

The only reason why Windows 8 RT is "closed" is because it does not support native unmanaged code of normal windows applications due to its support for ARM based devices.

Currently the only device that will use Windows RT is the Microsoft Surface(the Surface Pro will use Windows 8 Pro), i actually highly doubt that we'll see many tables with Windows RT even tho its licenses for OEM's are insanely cheap(around 25$)  since Windows 8 RT cannot run any normal windows apps, and even Metro apps have to be specifically coded for Windows 8 RT due to a more limiting API.

Microsoft ATM has created a real mess for developers, Windows 8, Windows 8 RT, Metro Apps for Windows 8, Metro Apps for Window 8 RT(easier to port but still not the same), Windows Phone 8, and Windows Phone 7 all have to be developed for separately..

Microsoft has renamed brands before.  Windows 8 RT has changed to just Windows RT for ARM processors.

http://www.microsoft.com/global/surface/en/us/renderingassets/surfacespecsheet.pdf

Cheers.

  DOGMA1138

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/11
Posts: 477

9/29/12 3:33:59 PM#58
Originally posted by CalmOceans

My main issue isn't related to the OS itself, it's related to Windows 8 Secure boot.

Secure boot prevents rootkits from launching on boot, for example someone plugging a USB drive in a PC at a workplace. Secure boot hardware will ask for a key, if the OS can provide the right key it's allowed to boot, if it's not the PC will simply not boot.

For Microsoft it's easy to enforce this for PC manufacturers, if someone wants to sell a Windows 8 PC, they will need secure boot for Windows, locking every other OS down (for example, some Windows 8 PC can not boot Windows XP in early tests, it doesn't provide the right key, the hardware won't let it boot).

Now comes the issue, Linux, which has far less hardware contacts and far less money, will have a much harder time getting a signed key than Microsoft, which means running Windows 8 alongside Linux could become a lot trickier, although many distros are working to find solutions around this issue.

Nonsense, Secureboot has nothing to do with Microsoft, its a feature of UEFI not windows, Windows 8 is just the first OS that supports it. It is very simmilar to how bootloaders are locked for CellPhones, you can only boot an OS which was signed by a recognized certificate. It is only enforced on Windows 8 RT to bot to increase security of tablets, and in order to avoid companies releasing Tablets for Windows 8 RT that will end up running pirated copies since Windows 8 RT does not need to be activated by the end user. Microsoft cannot force you as a PC owner in any way to user Secure Boot, you have control over the BIOS of your motherboard and can enable or disable both UEFI boot in general and Secure Boot option in the bios.

Secure Boot in general is great, and i have it on all of my linux machines at work :)

Allot of enterpises are using this feature for several years now the only difference is that they had to use 3rd party bootloaders(those that usually came witht their FDE solution) and either buy completly managed workstations, management addon cards, or additional 3rd party sofware to manage their UEFI firmware settings.

Now they can do it all in house, in a single intergraded product with no extra costs.

 

  CalmOceans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/11
Posts: 1855

9/29/12 3:42:20 PM#59
Originally posted by DOGMA1138
Originally posted by CalmOceans

My main issue isn't related to the OS itself, it's related to Windows 8 Secure boot.

Secure boot prevents rootkits from launching on boot, for example someone plugging a USB drive in a PC at a workplace. Secure boot hardware will ask for a key, if the OS can provide the right key it's allowed to boot, if it's not the PC will simply not boot.

For Microsoft it's easy to enforce this for PC manufacturers, if someone wants to sell a Windows 8 PC, they will need secure boot for Windows, locking every other OS down (for example, some Windows 8 PC can not boot Windows XP in early tests, it doesn't provide the right key, the hardware won't let it boot).

Now comes the issue, Linux, which has far less hardware contacts and far less money, will have a much harder time getting a signed key than Microsoft, which means running Windows 8 alongside Linux could become a lot trickier, although many distros are working to find solutions around this issue.

Nonsense, Secureboot has nothing to do with Microsoft, its a feature of UEFI not windows, Windows 8 is just the first OS that supports it.

 

Not nonsense, Windows 8 hardware that wants to be certified will need to support secure boot and enable it, it is very much a Windows 8 thing and it is enforced by no one else than Microsoft.

UEFI  is on most hardware but secure boot is disabled, UEFI is more than just secure boot, and no one else but Microsoft is responsible for enforcing secure boot on Windows 8 hardware and tablets.

To say this has nothing to do with Microsoft is very dishonest of you, Microsoft decided to use Secure Boot for Windows 8, not Intel.

Microsoft has also decided not to reach out to the Linux community and offers no support whatsoever on how to go around secure boot if one wants to install a different operating system, hiding behind the cloud of security while conveniently allowing no one to install another OS unless they jump through hoops.

It is also not just a tablet thing as you make it out to be, every PC that wants to be Windows 8 certified will need to support and enable secure boot. There are already certified windows 8 PC out there that can not dual boot XP and Windows 8, and the reason is that the hardware enables secure boot.

  DOGMA1138

Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/11
Posts: 477

9/29/12 3:51:32 PM#60
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Originally posted by DOGMA1138
Originally posted by CalmOceans

My main issue isn't related to the OS itself, it's related to Windows 8 Secure boot.

Secure boot prevents rootkits from launching on boot, for example someone plugging a USB drive in a PC at a workplace. Secure boot hardware will ask for a key, if the OS can provide the right key it's allowed to boot, if it's not the PC will simply not boot.

For Microsoft it's easy to enforce this for PC manufacturers, if someone wants to sell a Windows 8 PC, they will need secure boot for Windows, locking every other OS down (for example, some Windows 8 PC can not boot Windows XP in early tests, it doesn't provide the right key, the hardware won't let it boot).

Now comes the issue, Linux, which has far less hardware contacts and far less money, will have a much harder time getting a signed key than Microsoft, which means running Windows 8 alongside Linux could become a lot trickier, although many distros are working to find solutions around this issue.

Nonsense, Secureboot has nothing to do with Microsoft, its a feature of UEFI not windows, Windows 8 is just the first OS that supports it.

 

Not nonsense, Windows 8 hardware that wants to be certified will need to support secure boot, it is very much a Windows 8 thing and it is enforced by no one else than Microsoft.

UEFI  is on most hardware but secure boot is disabled, UEFI is more than just secure boot, and no one else but Microsoft is responsible for enforcing secure boot on Windows 8 hardware and tablets.

To say this has nothing to do with Microsoft is very dishonest of you, Microsoft decided to use Secure Boot for Windows 8, not Intel.

Yes nonsense, if you do not enable secure boot in your firmware, and it is not enforuced by the software policy of the OS which is USER CONFIGURABLE(via thelocal/group policy security settings) you do not have secure boot for your system.

And BTW the Windows Logo program for hardware for Windows 8 Desktop does not require you to have a secure boot supported firmware, just like it does not require you to have TPM for bitlocker on windows 7. Only Windows 8 RT devices are required to have secure boot enabled, but those are ARM based tablets not PC's.

Microsoft desided to support Secure Boot , and did a great job of implementing it if you have a mobile device(phone, tablet, laptop) with out secure boot and full disk encryption, especially at your workplace you are clueless about what security practices are like these days.

 

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