Originally posted by Purutzil

Its actually very simple. Not only are there 9 keys max at once, but many are very situational and very rarely used. Add in that the 1 key is an auto attack, you only got 8 buttons you really use. Of those buttons if your using the same weapon 5 are ALWAYS going to be the same. Utility wise with 2 level 80s, I virtually find only a select few skills really good to use, so typically its the same skills with maybe 1 unility swapped out in place (mesmer for example I use teleport but swap in for a cleanse/debuffing field for group play).

Its not a bad thing really, you don't need a vast amount of keys to make it 'challenging' though GW2 is very very very very very easy if your playing certain classes. Swapping weapons really isn't as 'glorious' as people make it to be. You will use 2 keys from one weapon often times and swap to another to use one or two more.

You hit level 30, you experienced what combat will be like for the rest of the game. Sure, some traits do alter it a little (mesmer clone on dodge being one I personally have a lot of use with) but they aren't that massive changes, just more insentive to do other things like dodge more often outside of escaping attacks at times. 

Its just a very simple skill system in this game with a relatively steep learning curve. Once people figure out what skills are just not worth it and what is good, its a very easy game to play. Without dodge, combat would be elementary level difficulty on most classes. 

how is that much differn't from any other MMO? most MMOs playstyle doesn't really change much you get couple more abilites here and there and some talents or whatever to boost or enhance skills you already have but overall it's more or less very similar in how you play. Also if you want a class with more complex system where you need to constantly swap sets(elements) play elementalist

Originally posted by TeknoBug

I have exactly 12 keybinds for specials in GW2, in Aion, WoW, SWTOR, etc. I had 42-46... soooooo many?

but how many of the 42-46 were for pots, pre-fight buffs, mounts and other things like that?

Aion had the simplest and slowest combat....WoW and Swtor weren't too far behind....they are basic and stupid simple.  I wouldn't go as far as to say GW2 (or GW1) for that matter were that simple.

TSW only has 7 skill slots and 7 passives, but you can rest assured that it's 10x more complicated than Aion, WoW, SWTOR and Hello Kitty put together.  

Again, the point isn't how many skills do you have in your arsenal, it's how many do you need to succeed....

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by TeknoBug

I have exactly 12 keybinds for specials in GW2, in Aion, WoW, SWTOR, etc. I had 42-46... soooooo many?

but how many of the 42-46 were for pots, pre-fight buffs, mounts and other things like that?

 

Aion had the simplest and slowest combat....WoW and Swtor weren't too far behind....they are basic and stupid simple.  I wouldn't go as far as to say GW2 (or GW1) for that matter were that simple.

TSW only has 7 skill slots and 7 passives, but you can rest assured that it's 10x more complicated than Aion, WoW, SWTOR and Hello Kitty put together.  

 

Again, the point isn't how many skills do you have in your arsenal, it's how many do you need to succeed....

to me that's the big thing in many of those games you have 40 hotbar abilities and many had 5+ min cooldowns or even 10 min or higher.. in GW2 I constantly use all my abilities save maybe 1 or 2 situational ones.

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

if you want more of a challenge I suggest elementalist... so far has been most challenging class for me.... obviously ymmv

I think I will try them...they look like alot of fun, but I'm not a big fan of caster classes

give dagger/dagger a shot seems ot be favorite among people I know who aren't caster fans

cool, thanks, will definitely give it a go

Haha dagger/dagger seems to be my most often defeated state while playing that class :) Mesmer and elementalist are much tougher to play than my main guardian, can actually see the benefit of your dodges and defensive skills when playing these two.

Do you know what bugs me? People who act like having hundred of abilities available to you somehow means the game is super complex and deep, and that it needs more skill to play, even IF roughly 1/3 of those skills are skills that are only used in the early stages of the game and is totally useless at the later stages, another 1/3 are basically clones of each other, and the last 1/3 is the only part you ever use, and even then you only use about 2-5 of those abilities most of the time.

How does more somehow equal better or more deep, is what I'm asking.

Originally posted by Eluldor

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Randayn

Originally posted by Aerowyn

if you want more of a challenge I suggest elementalist... so far has been most challenging class for me.... obviously ymmv

I think I will try them...they look like alot of fun, but I'm not a big fan of caster classes

give dagger/dagger a shot seems ot be favorite among people I know who aren't caster fans

cool, thanks, will definitely give it a go

Haha dagger/dagger seems to be my most often defeated state while playing that class :) Mesmer and elementalist are much tougher to play than my main guardian, can actually see the benefit of your dodges and defensive skills when playing these two.

I'm siked to try it.  After going from level 1-80 as a tank specced sword and shield Guardian in Age of Conan (dont ask me why I did that....stupid me)....it's hard to find a good challenge

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Do you know what bugs me? People who act like having hundred of abilities available to you somehow means the game is super complex and deep, and that it needs more skill to play, even IF roughly 1/3 of those skills are skills that are only used in the early stages of the game, another 1/3 are basically clones of each other, and the last 1/3 is the only part you ever use, and even then you only use about 2-5 of those abilities most of the time.

How does more somehow equal better or more deep, is what I'm asking.

Agreed...I actually like the direction that GW2 and TSW are taking with a more horizontal type progression....was sick and tired of getting Fireball 3 then Fireball 4, than Blazing Hot Awesome Fireball.....I'd rather get a plethora of skills that I can fill in if i want.  Actually, I believe GW1 started that....i think every game should follow suit...it allows people to find what works for them much better....more freedom = more fun

I just hope to God that GW2 allows for similar progression with weapon skills soon. 

Originally posted by Purutzil

Its actually very simple. Not only are there 9 keys max at once, but many are very situational and very rarely used. Add in that the 1 key is an auto attack, you only got 8 buttons you really use. Of those buttons if your using the same weapon 5 are ALWAYS going to be the same. Utility wise with 2 level 80s, I virtually find only a select few skills really good to use, so typically its the same skills with maybe 1 unility swapped out in place (mesmer for example I use teleport but swap in for a cleanse/debuffing field for group play).

Its not a bad thing really, you don't need a vast amount of keys to make it 'challenging' though GW2 is very very very very very easy if your playing certain classes. Swapping weapons really isn't as 'glorious' as people make it to be. You will use 2 keys from one weapon often times and swap to another to use one or two more.

You hit level 30, you experienced what combat will be like for the rest of the game. Sure, some traits do alter it a little (mesmer clone on dodge being one I personally have a lot of use with) but they aren't that massive changes, just more insentive to do other things like dodge more often outside of escaping attacks at times. 

Its just a very simple skill system in this game with a relatively steep learning curve. Once people figure out what skills are just not worth it and what is good, its a very easy game to play. Without dodge, combat would be elementary level difficulty on most classes. 

Are you sure you actually play a mesmer? In PvE I use a Greatsword with scepter/pistol, have my heal, Arcane Thievery, Null Field and the Reflective bubble one in addition to my elite. There isn't a skill on either side of the red ball I don't use and use often due to the various effects each one brings to the table. Add the assorted effects of the shatters, which can be quite lovely, plus the effects of traits you can add on (I love the "cripple when clone dies" one)... you have a whole toolkit full of tools and you're really not realizing your full potential if you leave them unused.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Purutzil

Its actually very simple. Not only are there 9 keys max at once, but many are very situational and very rarely used. Add in that the 1 key is an auto attack, you only got 8 buttons you really use. Of those buttons if your using the same weapon 5 are ALWAYS going to be the same. Utility wise with 2 level 80s, I virtually find only a select few skills really good to use, so typically its the same skills with maybe 1 unility swapped out in place (mesmer for example I use teleport but swap in for a cleanse/debuffing field for group play).

Its not a bad thing really, you don't need a vast amount of keys to make it 'challenging' though GW2 is very very very very very easy if your playing certain classes. Swapping weapons really isn't as 'glorious' as people make it to be. You will use 2 keys from one weapon often times and swap to another to use one or two more.

You hit level 30, you experienced what combat will be like for the rest of the game. Sure, some traits do alter it a little (mesmer clone on dodge being one I personally have a lot of use with) but they aren't that massive changes, just more insentive to do other things like dodge more often outside of escaping attacks at times. 

Its just a very simple skill system in this game with a relatively steep learning curve. Once people figure out what skills are just not worth it and what is good, its a very easy game to play. Without dodge, combat would be elementary level difficulty on most classes. 

how is that much differn't from any other MMO? most MMOs playstyle doesn't really change much you get couple more abilites here and there and some talents or whatever to boost or enhance skills you already have but overall it's more or less very similar in how you play. Also if you want a class with more complex system where you need to constantly swap sets(elements) play elementalist

Actually a lot. Just to name one game, Rift you have to actively change up your skills as you level, gaining new ones and having to add them into the mix. WoW use to do this (Not sure if it does now with how dumbed down it is) and over-all you feel progression. I just feel like nothing new ever happens in GW2, what I see at level 1 is what I get, and in most cases its the truth unless I swap weapons or a few minor things getting to the point of level 30. 

Don't get me wrong, I get WHY they did it wanting more emphasis on action and all with dodging that more complex play limits, but it just makes it feel far to dumbed down and it just bores me far quicker then other games. There is virtually 0 different from how I pvped on my Mesmer and how I did solo on my meser at level 40 (Which just added clone on dodge). The biggest difference is I use CC a bit differently and might dodge a little differently, but otherwise its virtually the same. 

Well to avoid straying to far off topic (since it is in some ways going off topic talking about the simplicity of the skills rather then the 'number of hot keys') lets go down with the simplest facts. 

5 Weapon skills (x2)

3 Utility 

1 Elite

_____

14 Skills total on a bar. Class skills would add max 4 which increases it to 18. 

Other games have far more skills available. Yes I can argue about having not use a lot of the skills GW2 provides (which lets admit that other games don't actively use all the stuff they have available either, likely outnumbering GW2 in that way though often using more skills in the end), but on a standpoint of 'skills and hotkeys at once' GW2 IS much lower then most other MMos. Still, you can't really claim thats a falling point because it doesn't nessisarily mean its 'worst' off just on a numbers standpoint. 

My question is "So what if it has less?" Why care and try to defend the game. If people complain it has less then ignore them because if they think more is better without any good reasoning, they really don't have a clue.

Originally posted by Purutzil

 

Actually a lot. Just to name one game, Rift you have to actively change up your skills as you level, gaining new ones and having to add them into the mix. WoW use to do this (Not sure if it does now with how dumbed down it is) and over-all you feel progression. I just feel like nothing new ever happens in GW2, what I see at level 1 is what I get, and in most cases its the truth unless I swap weapons or a few minor things getting to the point of level 30. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I get WHY they did it wanting more emphasis on action and all with dodging that more complex play limits, but it just makes it feel far to dumbed down and it just bores me far quicker then other games. There is virtually 0 different from how I pvped on my Mesmer and how I did solo on my meser at level 40 (Which just added clone on dodge). The biggest difference is I use CC a bit differently and might dodge a little differently, but otherwise its virtually the same. 

 

Well to avoid straying to far off topic (since it is in some ways going off topic talking about the simplicity of the skills rather then the 'number of hot keys') lets go down with the simplest facts. 

5 Weapon skills (x2)

3 Utility 

1 Elite

_____

14 Skills total on a bar. Class skills would add max 4 which increases it to 18. 

 

Other games have far more skills available. Yes I can argue about having not use a lot of the skills GW2 provides (which lets admit that other games don't actively use all the stuff they have available either, likely outnumbering GW2 in that way though often using more skills in the end), but on a standpoint of 'skills and hotkeys at once' GW2 IS much lower then most other MMos. Still, you can't really claim thats a falling point because it doesn't nessisarily mean its 'worst' off just on a numbers standpoint. 

My question is "So what if it has less?" Why care and try to defend the game. If people complain it has less then ignore them because if they think more is better without any good reasoning, they really don't have a clue.

your breakdown is sort of generic and changes greatly depending on class for instance elementalist and engineer depending how you are setup could have a great deal more.. for example elementalist has 20 skills with any weapon set then say you like conjure weapons each conjure weapon is full 5 new abilities.. you can set multiple conjure weapons to utility slots and elite if you wish giving you a LOT of abilities if you want it.. also engineer is similar in this aspect depending how you setup your utility skills. Also how you setup traits will completely change your playstyle.. for example now my ranger is running a pet focused shortbow/greatsword build.. if I move some traits around I can do a nice build using traps utilizing combo fields. Some more traits moves and I have a nice melee focused sword/dagger build  I actually change my weapon sets/traits every 5 levels or so and my playstyle is completely differn't justl ike i did in Rift... This is why i played Rift for so long and why I enjoy the setup in GW2 as well.. 

Until recently I could manage the content fairly well by using one build and perhaps one weapon with my Necro.

After I hit level 55, and certainly now that I am level 60 I find I have to weapon swap more often and further; I must use Death Shroud.

This does not happen everywhere of course. Lower levels maps are not as much of a challenge as the maps at my level are. The mob density and number of events are also factors.

Last night I wanted to reach a Vista in a Char map. There were a pair of Vetern mobs along with flame turrits, and regular mobs. The flames dropped my minions like paper leaving me dodging like crazy and watching my cool downs very carefully. I ended up aggroing several extra mobs sadly and ended up in a downed state. Thankfully some others arrived to help me.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Aerowyn
GW2 has plenty of actual skills my only gripe is I would like some sort of system like the utility skill system for the weapon skills.. It would be nice to be able to swap out differn't individual skills on weapons. Hopefully this is something they will add in the future

I doubt it, I think they main reason they went for a system like this is for balance purposes. This game unlike many other mmos is built with pvp in mind from the get go. They have already stated they wanted to keep the amount of skills and skill combinations down in GW2 for balance and they removed the secondary class for the same reason. Im not seeing this ever happening.

well see i do expect they will add in new weapon types down the road though so that at least will give more options in that regard..  but yea more skills harder it is to balance things

Yes, we will definately get more weapons. Probably other ways to get more skills too. But I doubt they go crazy customization cause it will destroy pvp.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

 

i found it changed vastly dependent on class.. for example my Ranger can easily take on a couple mobs 3 levels over my level. My elementalist gets destroyed in a similar situation unless I'm very carefull and very fast as doing the elemental swap.  Warrior same thing very simple to take on several mobs even a couple levels higher.. thief on the other hand had to be very carefull and use my abilities very wisely or i would eat dirt... so for me difficulty is really class dependent

wild, I find my Ranger to be slightly wimpy and down there with my theif as far as fragility. My mesmer rocks and my guardian is the king of AOE. Could be my build or could be my playstyle.

BTW anyone who thinks that GW2 comabat is easy try juggling a Elementalist, and jugging the fire, air, earth and water lines while  circle and side strafing like a madman trying to keep 2 or 3 mobs off your glass hiney

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Aerowyn

 

i found it changed vastly dependent on class.. for example my Ranger can easily take on a couple mobs 3 levels over my level. My elementalist gets destroyed in a similar situation unless I'm very carefull and very fast as doing the elemental swap.  Warrior same thing very simple to take on several mobs even a couple levels higher.. thief on the other hand had to be very carefull and use my abilities very wisely or i would eat dirt... so for me difficulty is really class dependent

wild, I find my Ranger to be slightly wimpy and down there with my theif as far as fragility. My mesmer rocks and my guardian is the king of AOE. Could be my build or could be my playstyle.

BTW anyone who thinks that GW2 comabat is easy try juggling a Elementalist, and jugging the fire, air, earth and water lines while  circle and side strafing like a madman trying to keep 2 or 3 mobs off your glass hiney

Ranger is only easy because your pet can basically solo any mob around his level itself. And certain ones tank quite well. You can basically take no damage for long periods of time if positioned right. But will get chunked if u do.

Originally posted by eggy08

Originally posted by Jackdog

Originally posted by Aerowyn

 

i found it changed vastly dependent on class.. for example my Ranger can easily take on a couple mobs 3 levels over my level. My elementalist gets destroyed in a similar situation unless I'm very carefull and very fast as doing the elemental swap.  Warrior same thing very simple to take on several mobs even a couple levels higher.. thief on the other hand had to be very carefull and use my abilities very wisely or i would eat dirt... so for me difficulty is really class dependent

wild, I find my Ranger to be slightly wimpy and down there with my theif as far as fragility. My mesmer rocks and my guardian is the king of AOE. Could be my build or could be my playstyle.

BTW anyone who thinks that GW2 comabat is easy try juggling a Elementalist, and jugging the fire, air, earth and water lines while  circle and side strafing like a madman trying to keep 2 or 3 mobs off your glass hiney

Ranger is only easy because your pet can basically solo any mob around his level itself. And certain ones tank quite well. You can basically take no damage for long periods of time if positioned right. But will get chunked if u do.

with two pets(obviously one at a time but still 2 available in combat), numerous speed buffs, retreat type skills and a really strong elite entangled I can keep myself from getting hit very easily.. with my panther pet I can pump out a ton of damage very fast.. quickness boon with shortbow is crazy good

---

Originally posted by Kuppa

---

Originally posted by Aerowyn

---

Originally posted by Kuppa

---

Originally posted by Aerowyn GW2 has plenty of actual skills my only gripe is I would like some sort of system like the utility skill system for the weapon skills.. It would be nice to be able to swap out differn't individual skills on weapons. Hopefully this is something they will add in the future

---

I doubt it, I think they main reason they went for a system like this is for balance purposes. This game unlike many other mmos is built with pvp in mind from the get go. They have already stated they wanted to keep the amount of skills and skill combinations down in GW2 for balance and they removed the secondary class for the same reason. Im not seeing this ever happening.

---

well see i do expect they will add in new weapon types down the road though so that at least will give more options in that regard..  but yea more skills harder it is to balance things

---

Yes, we will definately get more weapons. Probably other ways to get more skills too. But I doubt they go crazy customization cause it will destroy pvp.

---

Originally posted by Randayn

My complaint has less to do with skills and more to do with ease of play.  the game is REALLY easy to play.  you don't need all the skills you are naming to beat any of the open world content....maybe dungeons, which leads me to my second complaint.

It's great that you can have ANY viable build with ANY class, but then why have classes at all?  It's counter-intuitive.  If anyone can be anything at anytime, then why the need to differentiate?  which leads me to my third and final complaint,

The ability to differentiate yourself as something others are not is a keystone feature in the MMO universe.  It's the pride factor.  I think GW2 made a mistake by removing this entirely.

Not actually getting what you're saying here....

Are you talking like a mesmer can tank versus a guardian/warrior tanking?

Everyone can tank in some way.... some are better than others and that also depends on the situation.

I think some of us think of things more fluidly.