Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.

Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.

Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.

Some people like to play baseball...

Some people like to play golf..

Some people like to play both...

 

What is the problem with that?

 

 

 

 

This is fascinating, GrumpyMel.

 

Because you're right: baseball is a team sport and golf is a solo exercise.

And, yet, I observe that a lot more socializing goes on in golf than in baseball.

In baseball, you have people standing out in left field, not talking or even in a position to talk for innongs on end.

But in golf, you have a lot of time to walk from hole to hole, or to the ball, which gives people the opportunity to talk about something to pass the time.

Is it any wonder, then, why friends and acquaintances often choose to go golfing together rather than play baseball together in order to talk with each other?

Just an observation.

Most of the socializing occurs in the dugout, between innings, before and after the game, at practices, etc....it often even goes beyond the players themselves and involves families. I've never seen Golf have "Team Dinners" or "Team Cookouts" or "Team Moms", etc or have families and freinds come out to watch you play and socialize with each other in the stands.

Golf is a sport where you CAN play with others....or you CAN play alone. You certainly CAN choose to socialize if you want to do so...... but it's almost never the case that you meet a stranger while golfing, socialize and become freinds with them. In almost every case, you have some sort of pre-existing relationship that was established outside of golf with the people you go out golfing with. Team Sports like Baseball or Football are entirely different affairs.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.

Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.

Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.

Some people like to play baseball...

Some people like to play golf..

Some people like to play both...

 

What is the problem with that?

 

 

 

 

This is fascinating, GrumpyMel.

 

Because you're right: baseball is a team sport and golf is a solo exercise.

And, yet, I observe that a lot more socializing goes on in golf than in baseball.

In baseball, you have people standing out in left field, not talking or even in a position to talk for innongs on end.

But in golf, you have a lot of time to walk from hole to hole, or to the ball, which gives people the opportunity to talk about something to pass the time.

Is it any wonder, then, why friends and acquaintances often choose to go golfing together rather than play baseball together in order to talk with each other?

Just an observation.

Most of the socializing occurs in the dugout, between innings, before and after the game, etc....it often even goes beyond the players themselves and involves families. I've never seen Golf have "Team Dinners" or "Team Cookouts" or "Team Moms", etc.

Golf is a sport where you CAN play with others....or you CAN play alone. You certainly CAN choose to socialize if you want to do so...... but it's almost never the case that you meet a stranger while golfing, socialize and become freinds with them. In almost every case, you have some sort of pre-existing relationship that was established outside of golf with the people you go out golfing with. Team Sports like Baseball or Football are entirely different affairs.

So, basically, the socializing happens in those team sports when they aren't playing the game?

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by TalulaRose
 

Yes, his analogy fails completely. While it's possible for soldiers who are trained for a particular position to perform with relative effectiveness even when working with other individuals they've never met...the very act of going through those experiences tends to tighten bonds between them. If those individuals are together for more then a single short engagement they most definately will form social bonds with one another.

There is also a reason that the millitary doesn't work off of ad-hoc forces as a rule but organizes thier forces into regular UNITS who regularly train, work and live together....because doing so makes them FAR more effective as a force then adhoc arrangements even when individuals are well trained for thier positions. The British Regimental system took it so far that an enlisted soldier would serve in the regiment he was assigned for his entire career. Individuals in the millitary are extremely closely bonded to those whom they serve with. The Marines have a saying "Country, God, Corps, Unit."

What Quirhid makes the mistake is equating playing Team Sports as "showing up for a single game"...it's NOT. Even within the context of a single game, socialization and bonding will start to occur...but obviously it won't be all that strong compared with teams that play together over the course of an entire season or multiple seasons.

This even holds true in most work environments. When you work with other people and your jobs are interrelated or interdependent you tend to form social bonds with them. When you work independantly of others, you are less likely to form said bonnds, though it's still possible.

Of course there are some people who strongly dislike socialization or forming bonds with others and will try to avoid doing so whenever possible, there is a word for that....misanthrope.

OK, now you show your ignorance. It is an exercise. The point of putting soldiers in an ad hoc group is to develop teamwork, communication, ingenuity, train leadership skills and gauge individuals.

But you go on with your red herring rant how the military works...

 

I am unlikely to develop social bonds in pick-up games or pick-up teams. Similarly I do not develop them in

• pick-up groups for dungeon runs or PvP
• on a half-hour long boat ride
• or engaging in trade

Like I mentioned in my reply to Kyleran, the pace of gameplay is much more relevant than group vs solo play. I am on VOIP with my friends almost all the time I'm playing a game solo or not. Playing solo doesn't make me anti-social. I just don't want to socialize with completely random people I'm unlikely to see twice in my lifetime.

No you kinda MADE my point. Putting soldiers together into ad hoc groups helps them get more familiar with the concept of working in that fashion because that is something which MIGHT happen in actual combat where soldiers can get seperated from thier units, units can get disorganized, mixed up or need to be folded into one another due to casualties.

In actual combat (not excersizes), higher level commanders try REALLY, REALLY hard to avoid such situations because they know combat effectiveness tends to go down significantly when units become disorganized and are working with unfamiliar organizations. The point of the type of excersize you described is to try to mitigate those negative effects to some degree. However my point still stands, the way millitaries work  "as a rule" (you conveniently ignored this portion of my post) is to organize thier forces into regular units who live, work and train together because they know that's how forces will operate most effectively.

Furthermore you ignored my directly stated point that playing a "Team Sport" does not equate to showing up for a single game (e.g. PUG dungeon run) once....if you think it does then you REALLY haven't experienced "Team Sports"....you've experienced random pickup games. Even in a single game, unless you are a misanthrope,  social interaction will start to happen...but obviously it's alot weaker then playing an entire season together.

The reason why PUG's for random PVE dungeons don't encourage tighter bonds is that they tend to be very short and don't really require a high degree of interaction or coordination for success. The mechanics are dirt simple and how each player needs to perform each time never really changes that much because the situation is entirely scripted. Compare that to something like a football game where the opposition is actively reacting to your play...and your team needs to figure out how to adapt it's play to that and figure out and communicate how each members role works into that adaptation.

In PUG PvP you may not interact much to coordinate efforts but I pretty much assure you that if the games mechanics have any depth at all, 9 times out of 10 you are going to get rolled by a similarly sized opposition which does and which is used to working together as a team.

 

I played American football in high school and college, perhaps the most "team oriented" of the team sports.  Here is a situation where you have to make eleven people operate as one at a level of coordination that would challenge even the most demanding ballet choreographer.

But you know what the funny thing is about football?  Or ballet?  Or a platoon?  You really don't have to know the people on your team to operate as a team.

The funny thing about all of the above situations is that drills are conducted in silence.  Just about the only person who is alowed to talk is the coach (in football), the platoon leader (in a platoon), or the choreographer (in ballet).  Responses, if any, are limited to acknowledgements and direct questions about the matter at hand.  In short, the purpose of two-a-days (football), boot camp (the platoon) or rehearsal (ballet) isn't about "getting to know each other as individuals."  Its about breaking down individuality so that you don't think of yourself as an individual at all, but as a cog in a machine.

I don't have to know the favorite food of the tackle next to me if I'm pass blocking.  I don't need to know his religion or his voter preference.  As a matter of fact, there's really no opportunity to learn about these things when drilling, because we are too busy drilling to talk about such things.  If we were to talk about such things in the huddle, we'd probably be disciplined, like the girl who talks to her friend at the ballet barre, or the recruit talking to his bunkmate at the army barracks.

So let me ask you....did you get to know the people on the team with you....or in your platoon, if you served?  I'd be very surprised if the answer was "No".  Did you get to know any of your coach's? Did they get to know you? The time on the field, in the middle of a play,  in the middle of a drill, etc.... is NOT where the socialization takes place. That sense of interdependence...of needing to work together as a Team.... of shared adversity and shared experience is what helps create the bonds that foster socialization.

If you walked off the field the second a play was over and never saw each other then sure...there wouldn't be much opportunity for socialization.  But you and I know that's not AT ALL what "Team Sports" are really like, right?

Maybe you missed the part where I explained to Quirhid that "Team Sports" does not equate for showing up for one game?

I bet you socialized with your football team-mates a heckuva alot more then you ever did with the guy who was playing golf at the next hole over, the last time you went golfing.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.

Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.

Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.

Some people like to play baseball...

Some people like to play golf..

Some people like to play both...

 

What is the problem with that?

The problem is that playing a team sport is not exactly socializing. This was discussed in another thread too. Incidentally, many people socialize while playing golf. Playing a team sport or not has little to do with socializing.

Ah golf, now there's an activity that really provides for a lot of downtime between gameplay and therefore is full of socialization, in fact, might be the socialization king in that respect, probably why so many businessmen take up the game.

But same holds true for things like bowling, bridge, and several others, lots of opportunity to socialize due to the slower paced gameplay.

More importantly, golf leaves plenty of time for drinking.  I'm usually blitzed by the 9th hole.  Once and a while I jump in the pond and go for a swim between shots.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.

Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.

Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.

Some people like to play baseball...

Some people like to play golf..

Some people like to play both...

 

What is the problem with that?

 

 

 

 

This is fascinating, GrumpyMel.

 

Because you're right: baseball is a team sport and golf is a solo exercise.

And, yet, I observe that a lot more socializing goes on in golf than in baseball.

In baseball, you have people standing out in left field, not talking or even in a position to talk for innongs on end.

But in golf, you have a lot of time to walk from hole to hole, or to the ball, which gives people the opportunity to talk about something to pass the time.

Is it any wonder, then, why friends and acquaintances often choose to go golfing together rather than play baseball together in order to talk with each other?

Just an observation.

Most of the socializing occurs in the dugout, between innings, before and after the game, at practices, etc....it often even goes beyond the players themselves and involves families. I've never seen Golf have "Team Dinners" or "Team Cookouts" or "Team Moms", etc or have families and freinds come out to watch you play and socialize with each other in the stands.

Golf is a sport where you CAN play with others....or you CAN play alone. You certainly CAN choose to socialize if you want to do so...... but it's almost never the case that you meet a stranger while golfing, socialize and become freinds with them. In almost every case, you have some sort of pre-existing relationship that was established outside of golf with the people you go out golfing with. Team Sports like Baseball or Football are entirely different affairs.

 You have all those things happening with golf.  Meeting with people before, during, after your game.  There are dinners, parties all the time with the country clubs, with friends met through the country clubs.  One person I'm working with his wife just recently started golfing with a women's gorup and now they have set up a monthly dinner to test out new recipes and wines.

People meet each on courses, in the golf shops, in the clubs, at the restaurants, on the patios, in the halls, all the time.  I would bet there is virtually no one that engages in gold on a regular basis that has not made a friend on the course, the hall somewhere. 

edit - the gym is another place like that.  It can be a solo activity however a great many friendships are formed just by interacting with people you meet at the gym.  Some of my best friends actually but I may be an unusual case becase my work life is also basically centered around physical conditioning

Originally posted by Beatnik59

So, basically, the socializing happens in those team sports when they aren't playing the game?

The socializing in team sports is more analogous to socializing in a MMORPG guild.  While you are engaging in on-field activities there is no socializing because the entire team is dependant on your performance so you focus on the gameplay.  On the other hand you can have a lot of off-field socializing.

Golf allows more on-field socializing since the action is more leisurly and if you slack off and not pay attention to what you are doing only your score will be hurt.

One think people seem to forget about is the type of activity you are doing while you are trying to socialize.  If you detest what you are doing, you probably not going to be that fun to be around.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.

Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.

Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.

Some people like to play baseball...

Some people like to play golf..

Some people like to play both...

 

What is the problem with that?

 

 

 

 

This is fascinating, GrumpyMel.

 

Because you're right: baseball is a team sport and golf is a solo exercise.

And, yet, I observe that a lot more socializing goes on in golf than in baseball.

In baseball, you have people standing out in left field, not talking or even in a position to talk for innongs on end.

But in golf, you have a lot of time to walk from hole to hole, or to the ball, which gives people the opportunity to talk about something to pass the time.

Is it any wonder, then, why friends and acquaintances often choose to go golfing together rather than play baseball together in order to talk with each other?

Just an observation.

Most of the socializing occurs in the dugout, between innings, before and after the game, etc....it often even goes beyond the players themselves and involves families. I've never seen Golf have "Team Dinners" or "Team Cookouts" or "Team Moms", etc.

Golf is a sport where you CAN play with others....or you CAN play alone. You certainly CAN choose to socialize if you want to do so...... but it's almost never the case that you meet a stranger while golfing, socialize and become freinds with them. In almost every case, you have some sort of pre-existing relationship that was established outside of golf with the people you go out golfing with. Team Sports like Baseball or Football are entirely different affairs.

So, basically, the socializing happens in those team sports when they aren't playing the game?

Yes, now you are starting to get it. The game itself, the interdependancy, the being part of a team, the shared experience/adversity is a BONDING experience...it creates the catalyst for socialization.

If you look at an example directly from online games...  In the MUD I used to play, when I ( Fighter) and my partner (Healer) formed a rescue party to go into some dungeon and save someones corpse.... socialization did NOT occur while we were busy fighting off monsters, trying to recover the victems gear from the mobs, keeping the corpse from decomposing and getting them back to town.... we were FAR too busy for that, me with fighting and she with healing/buffing me.

The socialization occured after we were all back and recovering. The rescue was a BONDING moment. You can bet the person we rescued was appreciative of our assistance, you can bet they REMEMBERED our names and who we were, especialy if we had rescued them on more then one occasion. You can bet I was APPRECIATIVE of my partner and she of me, because without her I couldn't possibly have survived to perform the rescue and vice versa.....and when one of wasn't around we would often work with other partners or groups to do the same thing, and we certainly got to know them.

Without the game mechanics being built the way they were, none of this would ever have happaned. The people we rescued for the most part wouldn't have had the opportunity to interact with us or any reason to get to know us...without the requirement for a fighter/healer to be working together to be an effective rescue team....we wouldn't have had cause to spend so much time together, to have gone through so many "close calls", had so many stories to share, gotten to known each other so well.

The way the game was built was the catalyst for all of this happening. It helped bring people together. Sure there would have been nothing physicaly preventing people from getting together without those mechanics....but from a practical standpoint it wouldn't have happened very much (just as in todays MMO's) because there would have been no reason for it to do so.

in order for people to socizlize you need constructs to promote it.

i think we will see a return to socialization in eqn, not by going back to the old ways but by providing new ones.

---integrated group voice chat

- integrated sayvoice chat (~ 20 feet)

- soe emote and a return to the first person view

- group size of three, with uniting of 3's  in shared dungeons that requore multiple seperate small groups to complete ( or it takes a single group a very long time)

player made structures

no easy built ins. you dont get to teleport until someone builds a teleporter both to and from.

single defined adversary for the server to fight against

i made some of these up..but i hope all these things will be in the game.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.

Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.

Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.

Some people like to play baseball...

Some people like to play golf..

Some people like to play both...

 

What is the problem with that?

 

 

 

 

This is fascinating, GrumpyMel.

 

Because you're right: baseball is a team sport and golf is a solo exercise.

And, yet, I observe that a lot more socializing goes on in golf than in baseball.

In baseball, you have people standing out in left field, not talking or even in a position to talk for innongs on end.

But in golf, you have a lot of time to walk from hole to hole, or to the ball, which gives people the opportunity to talk about something to pass the time.

Is it any wonder, then, why friends and acquaintances often choose to go golfing together rather than play baseball together in order to talk with each other?

Just an observation.

Most of the socializing occurs in the dugout, between innings, before and after the game, etc....it often even goes beyond the players themselves and involves families. I've never seen Golf have "Team Dinners" or "Team Cookouts" or "Team Moms", etc.

Golf is a sport where you CAN play with others....or you CAN play alone. You certainly CAN choose to socialize if you want to do so...... but it's almost never the case that you meet a stranger while golfing, socialize and become freinds with them. In almost every case, you have some sort of pre-existing relationship that was established outside of golf with the people you go out golfing with. Team Sports like Baseball or Football are entirely different affairs.

So, basically, the socializing happens in those team sports when they aren't playing the game?

Yes, now you are starting to get it. The game itself, the interdependancy, the being part of a team, the shared experience/adversity is a BONDING experience...it creates the catalyst for socialization.

If you look at an example directly from online games...  In the MUD I used to play, when I ( Fighter) and my partner (Healer) formed a rescue party to go into some dungeon and save someones corpse.... socialization did NOT occur while we were busy fighting off monsters, trying to recover the victems gear from the mobs, keeping the corpse from decomposing and getting them back to town.... we were FAR too busy for that, me with fighting and she with healing/buffing me.

The socialization occured after we were all back and recovering. The rescue was a BONDING moment. You can bet the person we rescued was appreciative of our assistance, you can bet they REMEMBERED our names and who we were, especialy if we had rescued them on more then one occasion. You can bet I was APPRECIATIVE of my partner and she of me, because without her I couldn't possibly have survived to perform the rescue and vice versa.....and when one of wasn't around we would often work with other partners or groups to do the same thing, and we certainly got to know them.

Without the game mechanics being built the way they were, none of this would ever have happaned. The people we rescued for the most part wouldn't have had the opportunity to interact with us or any reason to get to know us...without the requirement for a fighter/healer to be working together to be an effective rescue team....we wouldn't have had cause to spend so much time together, to have gone through so many "close calls", had so many stories to share, gotten to known each other so well.

The way the game was built was the catalyst for all of this happening. It helped bring people together. Sure there would have been nothing physicaly preventing people from getting together without those mechanics....but from a practical standpoint it wouldn't have happened very much (just as in todays MMO's) because there would have been no reason for it to do so.

You talk about MUDs.  I used to play MUDs a long time ago (text based MUSHs, to be more specfic) in the early 90s.  Obviously, you've been at this a long time, and you've seen the games change.

I do agree that necessity can form relationships, like when someone dies in the world and a complete stranger comes to rez them.  That's an opportunity to establish a relationship.

But it seems to me, also, that we've gotten to the point where many players, like you and I, no longer really have to meet people in the games.  We can simply bring the people we already know from game to game, like many guilds do.

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.

Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.

Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.

Some people like to play baseball...

Some people like to play golf..

Some people like to play both...

 

What is the problem with that?

 

 

 

 

This is fascinating, GrumpyMel.

 

Because you're right: baseball is a team sport and golf is a solo exercise.

And, yet, I observe that a lot more socializing goes on in golf than in baseball.

In baseball, you have people standing out in left field, not talking or even in a position to talk for innongs on end.

But in golf, you have a lot of time to walk from hole to hole, or to the ball, which gives people the opportunity to talk about something to pass the time.

Is it any wonder, then, why friends and acquaintances often choose to go golfing together rather than play baseball together in order to talk with each other?

Just an observation.

Most of the socializing occurs in the dugout, between innings, before and after the game, at practices, etc....it often even goes beyond the players themselves and involves families. I've never seen Golf have "Team Dinners" or "Team Cookouts" or "Team Moms", etc or have families and freinds come out to watch you play and socialize with each other in the stands.

Golf is a sport where you CAN play with others....or you CAN play alone. You certainly CAN choose to socialize if you want to do so...... but it's almost never the case that you meet a stranger while golfing, socialize and become freinds with them. In almost every case, you have some sort of pre-existing relationship that was established outside of golf with the people you go out golfing with. Team Sports like Baseball or Football are entirely different affairs.

 You have all those things happening with golf.  Meeting with people before, during, after your game.  There are dinners, parties all the time with the country clubs, with friends met through the country clubs.  One person I'm working with his wife just recently started golfing with a women's gorup and now they have set up a monthly dinner to test out new recipes and wines.

People meet each on courses, in the golf shops, in the clubs, at the restaurants, on the patios, in the halls, all the time.  I would bet there is virtually no one that engages in gold on a regular basis that has not made a friend on the course, the hall somewhere. 

edit - the gym is another place like that.  It can be a solo activity however a great many friendships are formed just by interacting with people you meet at the gym.  Some of my best friends actually but I may be an unusual case becase my work life is also basically centered around physical conditioning

Ok, but is it Golf or Membership in the Country Club that is the catalyst for the socialization?

Note, I'm not trying to say socialization CAN'T happen in single player sports....I'm saying it doesn't foster it the way Team Sports do.  How likely are you to get to know the people on your Baseball or Football Team compared to those you might meet while Jogging or Biking around Central Park?

In terms of the Gym....yeah some people are like that and meet freinds at the gym, but it's not nearly as common....of all the freinds I have who work/worked out, not one of them made a single freind at the gym.....because it's very easy just to go there, ignore everyone else and go home...and do that day after day....same with Golf on public courses as I understand it.....playing on a regular Football or Baseball Team, not so much.....because the interaction helps foster a bond.

I and mine don't have that issue. we've been social since the day we discovered the joy of playing mmo's.

I have noticed quite a number of bad eggs that seem to be mixes in lately. It seems that they've decided to play these games too, and that's fine but like I was telling this bad egg the other day while playing, this isn't 2004.

He and his buddies all from the same guild decided I didn't need rezzing after we defeated a veteran in GW2.

Apparently, no one sent him the memo that there is such a thing as common courtesy.

So I'm saying this to those people  from now on. If you think that people in mmo's don't deserve common courtesy, don't play mmo's period. Stick with FPS and you'll be perfectly happy while you and your buddies never help a single soul and yell extreme obscenities at one another. Trust me it will improve the gaming experience for everyone else if you're not here.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.

Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.

Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.

Some people like to play baseball...

Some people like to play golf..

Some people like to play both...

 

What is the problem with that?

 

 

 

 

This is fascinating, GrumpyMel.

 

Because you're right: baseball is a team sport and golf is a solo exercise.

And, yet, I observe that a lot more socializing goes on in golf than in baseball.

In baseball, you have people standing out in left field, not talking or even in a position to talk for innongs on end.

But in golf, you have a lot of time to walk from hole to hole, or to the ball, which gives people the opportunity to talk about something to pass the time.

Is it any wonder, then, why friends and acquaintances often choose to go golfing together rather than play baseball together in order to talk with each other?

Just an observation.

Most of the socializing occurs in the dugout, between innings, before and after the game, etc....it often even goes beyond the players themselves and involves families. I've never seen Golf have "Team Dinners" or "Team Cookouts" or "Team Moms", etc.

Golf is a sport where you CAN play with others....or you CAN play alone. You certainly CAN choose to socialize if you want to do so...... but it's almost never the case that you meet a stranger while golfing, socialize and become freinds with them. In almost every case, you have some sort of pre-existing relationship that was established outside of golf with the people you go out golfing with. Team Sports like Baseball or Football are entirely different affairs.

So, basically, the socializing happens in those team sports when they aren't playing the game?

Yes, now you are starting to get it. The game itself, the interdependancy, the being part of a team, the shared experience/adversity is a BONDING experience...it creates the catalyst for socialization.

If you look at an example directly from online games...  In the MUD I used to play, when I ( Fighter) and my partner (Healer) formed a rescue party to go into some dungeon and save someones corpse.... socialization did NOT occur while we were busy fighting off monsters, trying to recover the victems gear from the mobs, keeping the corpse from decomposing and getting them back to town.... we were FAR too busy for that, me with fighting and she with healing/buffing me.

The socialization occured after we were all back and recovering. The rescue was a BONDING moment. You can bet the person we rescued was appreciative of our assistance, you can bet they REMEMBERED our names and who we were, especialy if we had rescued them on more then one occasion. You can bet I was APPRECIATIVE of my partner and she of me, because without her I couldn't possibly have survived to perform the rescue and vice versa.....and when one of wasn't around we would often work with other partners or groups to do the same thing, and we certainly got to know them.

Without the game mechanics being built the way they were, none of this would ever have happaned. The people we rescued for the most part wouldn't have had the opportunity to interact with us or any reason to get to know us...without the requirement for a fighter/healer to be working together to be an effective rescue team....we wouldn't have had cause to spend so much time together, to have gone through so many "close calls", had so many stories to share, gotten to known each other so well.

The way the game was built was the catalyst for all of this happening. It helped bring people together. Sure there would have been nothing physicaly preventing people from getting together without those mechanics....but from a practical standpoint it wouldn't have happened very much (just as in todays MMO's) because there would have been no reason for it to do so.

You talk about MUDs.  I used to play MUDs a long time ago (text based MUSHs, to be more specfic) in the early 90s.  Obviously, you've been at this a long time, and you've seen the games change.

I do agree that necessity can form relationships, like when someone dies in the world and a complete stranger comes to rez them.  That's an opportunity to establish a relationship.

But it seems to me, also, that we've gotten to the point where many players, like you and I, no longer really have to meet people in the games.  We can simply bring the people we already know from game to game, like many guilds do.

Sure we can, but we're socializing INSPITE of these games not due to them.... and it's leaving a whole new generation of gamers out in the cold.

Heck, it's gotten so bad alot of todays MMO's ACTIVELY hinder the ability to play with freinds...

Some recent examples from my LOTRO play...

- Doing a Quest Line... "Oops, this part of the quest involves a Solo Instance...we actualy HAVE to break group and play solo if we want to continue this quest line."

- Open World Adventuring with another player in a newly opened area that is at our level... "All the mobs in this area are designed to be taken on by solo players....fighting them with us two is so mind numblying easy we're falling asleep....any content in this area designed for small groups...NO....what about larger groups, maybe we can find some others to hook up with...NO.....In the entire expansion pack featuring over 600 + quests there is exactly ONE quest designed for a group...and that requires a RAID of max level characters....no other content open world or other that isn't designed for SOLO...so if we don't want to split up...we've either got to be bored with mindlessly easy combat or bored with content we've alreasy done 1000 times."

- " Hey what book are you on...4...I'm on 5....well guess I can spend the rest of my night helping you catch up while repeating content I've already seen/done"

- "Hey... we've all found a group quest we don't have....how many folks do we have....7.....guess we're splitting up then"

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Loktofeit
There's an unrealistic expectation among some MMO gamers that others should make the effort to interact with them. Some even go as far as wanting games changed to force others to have to be tethered to them in hopes that it will also force others to interact with them.

Baseball is an inherently team based game. You really can't play baseball without being part of a team. The rules are designed to enforce interdependancy between the players and require teamwork if you want to achieve anything in play.

Golf is an inherenitly individual based game. You generaly play as an individual. You can play around others or choose to interact with others as you play, but the rules do nothing to support or encourage Team based play. You are essentialy playing as an individual whether you choose to do so or not.

Baseball and Golf offer entirely different play experiences.

Some people like to play baseball...

Some people like to play golf..

Some people like to play both...

 

What is the problem with that?

 

 

 

 

This is fascinating, GrumpyMel.

 

Because you're right: baseball is a team sport and golf is a solo exercise.

And, yet, I observe that a lot more socializing goes on in golf than in baseball.

In baseball, you have people standing out in left field, not talking or even in a position to talk for innongs on end.

But in golf, you have a lot of time to walk from hole to hole, or to the ball, which gives people the opportunity to talk about something to pass the time.

Is it any wonder, then, why friends and acquaintances often choose to go golfing together rather than play baseball together in order to talk with each other?

Just an observation.

Most of the socializing occurs in the dugout, between innings, before and after the game, at practices, etc....it often even goes beyond the players themselves and involves families. I've never seen Golf have "Team Dinners" or "Team Cookouts" or "Team Moms", etc or have families and freinds come out to watch you play and socialize with each other in the stands.

Golf is a sport where you CAN play with others....or you CAN play alone. You certainly CAN choose to socialize if you want to do so...... but it's almost never the case that you meet a stranger while golfing, socialize and become freinds with them. In almost every case, you have some sort of pre-existing relationship that was established outside of golf with the people you go out golfing with. Team Sports like Baseball or Football are entirely different affairs.

 You have all those things happening with golf.  Meeting with people before, during, after your game.  There are dinners, parties all the time with the country clubs, with friends met through the country clubs.  One person I'm working with his wife just recently started golfing with a women's gorup and now they have set up a monthly dinner to test out new recipes and wines.

People meet each on courses, in the golf shops, in the clubs, at the restaurants, on the patios, in the halls, all the time.  I would bet there is virtually no one that engages in gold on a regular basis that has not made a friend on the course, the hall somewhere. 

edit - the gym is another place like that.  It can be a solo activity however a great many friendships are formed just by interacting with people you meet at the gym.  Some of my best friends actually but I may be an unusual case becase my work life is also basically centered around physical conditioning

Ok, but is it Golf or Membership in the Country Club that is the catalyst for the socialization?

Note, I'm not trying to say socialization CAN'T happen in single player sports....I'm saying it doesn't foster it the way Team Sports do.  How likely are you to get to know the people on your Baseball or Football Team compared to those you might meet while Jogging or Biking around Central Park?

In terms of the Gym....yeah some people are like that and meet freinds at the gym, but it's not nearly as common....of all the freinds I have who work/worked out, not one of them made a single freind at the gym.....because it's very easy just to go there, ignore everyone else and go home...and do that day after day....same with Golf on public courses as I understand it.....playing on a regular Football or Baseball Team, not so much.....because the interaction helps foster a bond.

 Golf is the catalyst.  You meet people because you are involved with Golf.  It doesn't just happen in clubs, it happens on public courses, and on driving ranges.

Your are likely to get to know them just as well. 

If thats how you play at golf or the gym, fair enough nothing wrong with that. However for many many people  that is their socialization.  Early in my career I used to see the people sitting in the corner of the gym talking barely doing anything and laugh at them, then I realized they aren't coming to the gym for the exercise, the exercise is an excuse for socialization.  This is where they interact with people with at least one common interest.

And this is not a small peice of the population.  I would say the majority have a farily decent level of socialization, even with people they don't know at all (at first at least) by golfing and the gym. 

Its the common interest that is the driver in fostering relationships, not so much the actual activity. 

Originally posted by Aelious
Similar to what Rungard pointed out, if you offer more effective ways to communicate in the first place (integrated audio and visual communication with first person capabilities) you will go a long way in brining more socialization to MMOs. At the very least it would improve socializing while fighting badies. Activities that are more social in nature already would be money with the tools listed above. For now it's only in one game.

I'll drink to that.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Originally posted by TalulaRose
 

Yes, his analogy fails completely. While it's possible for soldiers who are trained for a particular position to perform with relative effectiveness even when working with other individuals they've never met...the very act of going through those experiences tends to tighten bonds between them. If those individuals are together for more then a single short engagement they most definately will form social bonds with one another.

There is also a reason that the millitary doesn't work off of ad-hoc forces as a rule but organizes thier forces into regular UNITS who regularly train, work and live together....because doing so makes them FAR more effective as a force then adhoc arrangements even when individuals are well trained for thier positions. The British Regimental system took it so far that an enlisted soldier would serve in the regiment he was assigned for his entire career. Individuals in the millitary are extremely closely bonded to those whom they serve with. The Marines have a saying "Country, God, Corps, Unit."

What Quirhid makes the mistake is equating playing Team Sports as "showing up for a single game"...it's NOT. Even within the context of a single game, socialization and bonding will start to occur...but obviously it won't be all that strong compared with teams that play together over the course of an entire season or multiple seasons.

This even holds true in most work environments. When you work with other people and your jobs are interrelated or interdependent you tend to form social bonds with them. When you work independantly of others, you are less likely to form said bonnds, though it's still possible.

Of course there are some people who strongly dislike socialization or forming bonds with others and will try to avoid doing so whenever possible, there is a word for that....misanthrope.

OK, now you show your ignorance. It is an exercise. The point of putting soldiers in an ad hoc group is to develop teamwork, communication, ingenuity, train leadership skills and gauge individuals.

But you go on with your red herring rant how the military works...

 

I am unlikely to develop social bonds in pick-up games or pick-up teams. Similarly I do not develop them in

• pick-up groups for dungeon runs or PvP
• on a half-hour long boat ride
• or engaging in trade

Like I mentioned in my reply to Kyleran, the pace of gameplay is much more relevant than group vs solo play. I am on VOIP with my friends almost all the time I'm playing a game solo or not. Playing solo doesn't make me anti-social. I just don't want to socialize with completely random people I'm unlikely to see twice in my lifetime.

No you kinda MADE my point. Putting soldiers together into ad hoc groups helps them get more familiar with the concept of working in that fashion because that is something which MIGHT happen in actual combat where soldiers can get seperated from thier units, units can get disorganized, mixed up or need to be folded into one another due to casualties.

In actual combat (not excersizes), higher level commanders try REALLY, REALLY hard to avoid such situations because they know combat effectiveness tends to go down significantly when units become disorganized and are working with unfamiliar organizations. The point of the type of excersize you described is to try to mitigate those negative effects to some degree. However my point still stands, the way millitaries work  "as a rule" (you conveniently ignored this portion of my post) is to organize thier forces into regular units who live, work and train together because they know that's how forces will operate most effectively.

Furthermore you ignored my directly stated point that playing a "Team Sport" does not equate to showing up for a single game (e.g. PUG dungeon run) once....if you think it does then you REALLY haven't experienced "Team Sports"....you've experienced random pickup games. Even in a single game, unless you are a misanthrope,  social interaction will start to happen...but obviously it's alot weaker then playing an entire season together.

The reason why PUG's for random PVE dungeons don't encourage tighter bonds is that they tend to be very short and don't really require a high degree of interaction or coordination for success. The mechanics are dirt simple and how each player needs to perform each time never really changes that much because the situation is entirely scripted. Compare that to something like a football game where the opposition is actively reacting to your play...and your team needs to figure out how to adapt it's play to that and figure out and communicate how each members role works into that adaptation.

In PUG PvP you may not interact much to coordinate efforts but I pretty much assure you that if the games mechanics have any depth at all, 9 times out of 10 you are going to get rolled by a similarly sized opposition which does and which is used to working together as a team.

 

I played American football in high school and college, perhaps the most "team oriented" of the team sports.  Here is a situation where you have to make eleven people operate as one at a level of coordination that would challenge even the most demanding ballet choreographer.

But you know what the funny thing is about football?  Or ballet?  Or a platoon?  You really don't have to know the people on your team to operate as a team.

The funny thing about all of the above situations is that drills are conducted in silence.  Just about the only person who is alowed to talk is the coach (in football), the platoon leader (in a platoon), or the choreographer (in ballet).  Responses, if any, are limited to acknowledgements and direct questions about the matter at hand.  In short, the purpose of two-a-days (football), boot camp (the platoon) or rehearsal (ballet) isn't about "getting to know each other as individuals."  Its about breaking down individuality so that you don't think of yourself as an individual at all, but as a cog in a machine.

I don't have to know the favorite food of the tackle next to me if I'm pass blocking.  I don't need to know his religion or his voter preference.  As a matter of fact, there's really no opportunity to learn about these things when drilling, because we are too busy drilling to talk about such things.  If we were to talk about such things in the huddle, we'd probably be disciplined, like the girl who talks to her friend at the ballet barre, or the recruit talking to his bunkmate at the army barracks.

So let me ask you....did you get to know the people on the team with you....or in your platoon, if you served?  I'd be very surprised if the answer was "No".  Did you get to know any of your coach's? Did they get to know you? The time on the field, in the middle of a play,  in the middle of a drill, etc.... is NOT where the socialization takes place. That sense of interdependence...of needing to work together as a Team.... of shared adversity and shared experience is what helps create the bonds that foster socialization.

If you walked off the field the second a play was over and never saw each other then sure...there wouldn't be much opportunity for socialization.  But you and I know that's not AT ALL what "Team Sports" are really like, right?

Maybe you missed the part where I explained to Quirhid that "Team Sports" does not equate for showing up for one game?

I bet you socialized with your football team-mates a heckuva alot more then you ever did with the guy who was playing golf at the next hole over, the last time you went golfing.

 

I knew some.  I didn't know everyone.  Moreover, I didn't want to know everyone or, in the greater scheme of things, needed to know everyone.  And it was the same with others.  When you get right down to it, if all you have holding you together is a tour, or a season, or an epic raid, it really doesn't amount to much.  It really doesn't.  Because once you take that away, you don't have anything holding you together than memories and the past, which starts to look really old and pathetic really quickly.

I think the best analogy was offered by a good friend of mine who served in Vietnam.  He went to a coffee house and met two marines there who also served in Vietnam and were carrying on about all sorts of things that happened forty years ago.  And the way my friend described it, "it's as if they didn't want to leave."  Perhaps the "adversity and shared experience" you described is why they didn't want to "leave."  No doubt that, at the time, it was the most important thing in their lives.

But just because you did something doesn't mean you have anything else to hold you together other than the "thing" that isn't even relevant anymore.  All my fiend said to them was "look around you.  We aren't in Vietnam anymore.  We're in a coffee house."

The same with football.  I met a lot of folks in football that I wouldn't have known if football didn't bring us together.  But once football was gone, there wasn't any reason to know them anymore.  I mean, what else would we even talk about but things that happened so long ago?  Some of my football "friends" couldn't even leave football, despite the fact that football left them long ago.  I remember seeing my old high-school quarterback at the local bar, having a beer with his favorite wide receiver.    They were all like, "hey man, good to see you!"  And we talked about crap we did when we were in practice and on the field, simply because they really didn't "get" what I was about with my books and studies.  So we remeniced about old times, exchanged phone numbers, and left.  I never called them back.  They never called me.  Why should we hang out?

Perhaps this is the reason why I like the kind of social experience I get with MMOs over the kind of social experiences I had as part of a unit or a team.  Because while I was always able to do my job as part of my unit and my team, all the "rah rah rah" crap that implied we somehow were "closer" as a result was, to me, really absurd.

The same with these games, I suppose.  Right now, my game is in the process of closing (CoH).  Did I have some good times there as part of a task force?  Or on part of a team to take down the Rikti mothership?  Heck yeah!  But am I going to "remember" these people?  Do I share some sort of "bond" because of the "adversity?"  No.

I'm more inclined to remember the people who played interesting characters.  I'm more inclined to remember those who helped develop my characters and their fictions.  And the really absurd thing is that I have absolutely no idea if the people who played these characters are anything like the characters they portrayed.  Frankly, I really don't want to know, because knowing could only spoil the memories.

Sorry if this was sort of long, and if it didn't answer your question, but that's just the way I see it.

Originally posted by Aelious
Similar to what Rungard pointed out, if you offer more effective ways to communicate in the first place (integrated audio and visual communication with first person capabilities) you will go a long way in brining more socialization to MMOs. At the very least it would improve socializing while fighting badies. Activities that are more social in nature already would be money with the tools listed above. For now it's only in one game.

I would absolutely never play a game like that.  The people who play these games are about on the same level as the people I meet at the bar: they are cool enough, but I wouldn't want to bring them into my home.

In fact, I'll take that one step further.  To me, I find that the things players create (their characters) are far more interesting to play with than the players themselves.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by Aelious
Similar to what Rungard pointed out, if you offer more effective ways to communicate in the first place (integrated audio and visual communication with first person capabilities) you will go a long way in brining more socialization to MMOs. At the very least it would improve socializing while fighting badies. Activities that are more social in nature already would be money with the tools listed above. For now it's only in one game.

I would absolutely never play a game like that.  The people who play these games are about on the same level as the people I meet at the bar: they are cool enough, but I wouldn't want to bring them into my home.

In fact, I'll take that one step further.  To me, I find that the things players create (their characters) are far more interesting to play with than the players themselves.

You may have misunderstood what I meant by "visial communication".  I didn't mean you would see the other person as in real life but what SoEMote does that is tied to thier integrated voice system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cde01HNKQVw

And you are right, I would not want to see others in real life either because it's a fantasy game.  You may still not want to interact that way and I doubt games would make it a mandatory feature.

Originally posted by Beatnik59

Originally posted by Aelious
Similar to what Rungard pointed out, if you offer more effective ways to communicate in the first place (integrated audio and visual communication with first person capabilities) you will go a long way in brining more socialization to MMOs. At the very least it would improve socializing while fighting badies. Activities that are more social in nature already would be money with the tools listed above. For now it's only in one game.

I would absolutely never play a game like that.  The people who play these games are about on the same level as the people I meet at the bar: they are cool enough, but I wouldn't want to bring them into my home.

In fact, I'll take that one step further.  To me, I find that the things players create (their characters) are far more interesting to play with than the players themselves.

Exactly.  I'd never play like that either, it's painful enough to watch some of these geniuses type, I sure the hell don't want to have to listen to them talk.  Most of the people I run into in an MMO are people I have no interest whatsoever in socializing with.  They are people I honestly wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.  Now I'm sure in any crowd, I could find someone who I at least had something in common with, that I could find something to talk about from time to time, but that's certainly not enough to base a long-term friendship on.  I just don't see enough people who would have anything in common with me playing MMOs.  As such, why should I want to play with any of them?