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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Do overly competitive Facerollers bother you?

16 posts found
  User Deleted
 
OP  9/26/12 10:01:46 PM#1

Inspired by the PvE thread about players who rush to endgame ASAP completing it in days, I wanted to make a new topic to ask others how they feel about the PvP version of these players.

You know...the type of players who know the most OP builds before the game is even out of beta. The types that score hundreds of hours in the first day of the game (thx beta/headstart) and already know how to kill you in 3 hits while staying invulnerable the entire time.

 

Granted once you learn how to play and get a good build, this isn't anywhere near as bad. Then when you also adopt an OP build/spec and learn what is OP and what is Gimp-- it stops entirely. But do those players bother you?

 

You know, the type in a random match of 8v8 or 10v10 or 16v16 and there's that 1 guy or 1 small group of guys who have ridiculous scores compared to everyone else. The person you rush up to who is both impossible to kill and kills you (and all your friends) in seconds.

PvE versions of no-life (hundreds of hours played in week 1 of release) end-game rushers do not directly effect you. The PvP equivalent who min/max the metagame and exploit unbalanced (or broken) game mechanics do. They directly effect you quite hard sometimes.

 

Does it bother you? In addition, do you think the developers should do something to bring balance to random PvP matches, attempting to better match players according to their skill level? (newbs vs newbs, no life pro's vs no life pro's).

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/26/12 11:25:32 PM#2

It depends.

Is it a P2W game?  Then it would be the game that bothers me - not the players.

Are they exploting bugs?  Then they would bother me as exploiters.

In general?  No.  Somebody's that spent more time on something should hopefully be better than somebody that has not.

I do have to say, that I get a chuckle of the folks that do the chest thumping when the reasons for their success go beyond themselves.  You kind of feel bad for them.  Now, there are the folks that know that they worked as part of a team and they thank their team - they're not the super stars that some folks think they are.  That's a world of difference.  Folks that know they owned because of the folks behind them are far different than the folks that are oblivious to all the support they received.

Generally speaking though - I'm not sure why somebody that's invested more time to improve themselves should not have that advantage.  I mean, the opposite is where we've gotten into the nonsense of P2W where somebody can just buy their advantages.

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/26/12 11:58:10 PM#3
Originally posted by VirusDancer

It depends.

Is it a P2W game?  Then it would be the game that bothers me - not the players.

Are they exploting bugs?  Then they would bother me as exploiters.

In general?  No.  Somebody's that spent more time on something should hopefully be better than somebody that has not.

I do have to say, that I get a chuckle of the folks that do the chest thumping when the reasons for their success go beyond themselves.  You kind of feel bad for them.  Now, there are the folks that know that they worked as part of a team and they thank their team - they're not the super stars that some folks think they are.  That's a world of difference.  Folks that know they owned because of the folks behind them are far different than the folks that are oblivious to all the support they received.

Generally speaking though - I'm not sure why somebody that's invested more time to improve themselves should not have that advantage.  I mean, the opposite is where we've gotten into the nonsense of P2W where somebody can just buy their advantages.

Remember the differences between being better because you have played longer and have experience at the game's gameplay, and playing longer and thus have a better idea of what is OP, gimp, unbalanced, and how to exploit the game mechanics to be more powerful than was intended.

 

Developers intend perfect balance (unless otherwise stated: Rock Paper Scissors).

 

When a player is better at the game because he found a way for Rock to break through paper and crush scissors in a 1v2, this is what is IMO a negative exploit of the meta game mechanics.

When a player is better because he learned to dodge roll, move correctly, time his abilities, and counter other's abilities-- this is positive experience which is about developing player skill and USING meta game mechanics AS INTENDED.

 

The former... although following the rules technically (won't get banned), it is basically cheating by means of exploitation of what is UNINTENDED and inevitably nerfed later. The only reason this exploitation isn't banned is because it is viewed as the fault of the DEVELOPER, and not the PLAYER. While one may argue sarcastically "What are players suppose to do? Not play [OP Spec]? That's stupid!" The problem would be entirely resolved if no one played the OP spec and everyone played fair. The game would be extremely fun for EVERYONE if all players played only classes/abilities/builds that were INTENDED to be as powerful as they are.

The latter is not exploitative or cheating in any way, as it is not abusing BALANCE of game mechanics, but USING experience with INTENDED game mechanics.

 

I know I repeated myself just now, but honestly you have to because people don't seem to grasp ideas when given.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/27/12 12:17:37 AM#4

Um, meta knowledge is part of the overall skill in playing the game.  While there are differences in the various skills one may acquire, in the end - they all do speak to the overall skillset involved in the game.  Somebody that's played all the classes to have at least a basic understanding of all the classes is going to have an advantage over the person that did not.  Knowing the weaknesses of the those other classes and exploiting those weaknesses...is not a "bad" exploit.  It's along the lines of attacking an enemy from the rear...they're at a disadvantage if you attack from the rear and you're exploiting the fact that their rear is facing you.

So I have to say I disagree about skill being so physical - knowledge plays an important aspect - a very important aspect.  It's something that's often overlooked by many players that think they have "leet" skills.  They'll often complain that something's broken - when they never bothered to think about what's going on.

Player A will jump Player B.  Player A will slaughter Player B.  Player B complains that Player A hacked something.  No, Player A just has a clue...

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  Connmacart

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 693

9/27/12 12:58:58 AM#5
Originally posted by VirusDancer

Um, meta knowledge is part of the overall skill in playing the game.  While there are differences in the various skills one may acquire, in the end - they all do speak to the overall skillset involved in the game.  Somebody that's played all the classes to have at least a basic understanding of all the classes is going to have an advantage over the person that did not.  Knowing the weaknesses of the those other classes and exploiting those weaknesses...is not a "bad" exploit.  It's along the lines of attacking an enemy from the rear...they're at a disadvantage if you attack from the rear and you're exploiting the fact that their rear is facing you.

So I have to say I disagree about skill being so physical - knowledge plays an important aspect - a very important aspect.  It's something that's often overlooked by many players that think they have "leet" skills.  They'll often complain that something's broken - when they never bothered to think about what's going on.

Player A will jump Player B.  Player A will slaughter Player B.  Player B complains that Player A hacked something.  No, Player A just has a clue...

I would go so far as say Knowledge is the more important aspect when it comes to skill over the physical part. Also there is the raw talent aspect when it comes to skill. 

You can learn to play guitar and practise for years and years and still a virtuoso will out play you after a few months of playing.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/27/12 1:08:18 AM#6
Originally posted by Connmacart
Originally posted by VirusDancer

Um, meta knowledge is part of the overall skill in playing the game.  While there are differences in the various skills one may acquire, in the end - they all do speak to the overall skillset involved in the game.  Somebody that's played all the classes to have at least a basic understanding of all the classes is going to have an advantage over the person that did not.  Knowing the weaknesses of the those other classes and exploiting those weaknesses...is not a "bad" exploit.  It's along the lines of attacking an enemy from the rear...they're at a disadvantage if you attack from the rear and you're exploiting the fact that their rear is facing you.

So I have to say I disagree about skill being so physical - knowledge plays an important aspect - a very important aspect.  It's something that's often overlooked by many players that think they have "leet" skills.  They'll often complain that something's broken - when they never bothered to think about what's going on.

Player A will jump Player B.  Player A will slaughter Player B.  Player B complains that Player A hacked something.  No, Player A just has a clue...

I would go so far as say Knowledge is the more important aspect when it comes to skill over the physical part. Also there is the raw talent aspect when it comes to skill. 

You can learn to play guitar and practise for years and years and still a virtuoso will out play you after a few months of playing.

Yep, there are definitely folks that just have a natural talent for doing things as well.  They don't bother me either.

Now if the guitar shop sold a guitar that plays itself as well as I can after years of practice and some guy thought he was special because he bought that...well, that would bother me.  And if somebody could detune my guitar, screw with my amp, etc, etc, etc - that would bother me as well.

Somebody being better because they practiced or because they have a talent... how could that bother me, eh?

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  User Deleted
 
OP  9/27/12 1:33:25 PM#7
once again... you seem to afaik to grasp the basic concept I have explained multiple times.

Learning other classes intended weaknesses is obviously not an exploit.

Exploitative behavior is unintended...such as finding out that a tank can be defeated instantly if you use "Over 9000!!!" a shout that is so OP it let's you do 9k dmg when The strongest tank in the game has 8k hp. This is often (but not always) followed by a nerf.

Unless an ability is suppose to one-shot tanks, bad balance leaves tons of people exploiting broken mechanics in an overly competitive nature.

Some games are balanced enough to not allow a single ability, build, or class to exploit power. Some morphs are plagued with exploits.


What you fail to understand is the mathmatics behind min maxing anyhow people exploit the metagame to have the best edge in PvP by abusing unintended Mechanics.

Learning about the game is intended. Exploiting it is not.
  Beacker

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/06
Posts: 426

9/27/12 1:40:33 PM#8
Originally posted by MagnusCeleritas

Inspired by the PvE thread about players who rush to endgame ASAP completing it in days, I wanted to make a new topic to ask others how they feel about the PvP version of these players.

You know...the type of players who know the most OP builds before the game is even out of beta. The types that score hundreds of hours in the first day of the game (thx beta/headstart) and already know how to kill you in 3 hits while staying invulnerable the entire time.

 

Granted once you learn how to play and get a good build, this isn't anywhere near as bad. Then when you also adopt an OP build/spec and learn what is OP and what is Gimp-- it stops entirely. But do those players bother you?

 

You know, the type in a random match of 8v8 or 10v10 or 16v16 and there's that 1 guy or 1 small group of guys who have ridiculous scores compared to everyone else. The person you rush up to who is both impossible to kill and kills you (and all your friends) in seconds.

PvE versions of no-life (hundreds of hours played in week 1 of release) end-game rushers do not directly effect you. The PvP equivalent who min/max the metagame and exploit unbalanced (or broken) game mechanics do. They directly effect you quite hard sometimes.

 

Does it bother you? In addition, do you think the developers should do something to bring balance to random PvP matches, attempting to better match players according to their skill level? (newbs vs newbs, no life pro's vs no life pro's).

Some people are just that bad and have to play the flavor of the month OP class. Then when it is nerfed they go to the next etc. It doesn't bother me if people out gear me in PVP. I don't get mad. In Aion I was an asmo and there were Elyos that played all the time and got gear way before me. It took me months and months of getting my ass handed to me until I got on thier level and started kicking thier asses back.

I don't know if devs can really seperate people by skill level or not. That is just how it goes, there is always someone who is better than you even if you are a top notch player. They might be able to control PVP in an instance by putting a gear level requirement. However in OWPVP they can't do anything. I don't mind taking longer to get my gear because I have a life,job,wife etc. I know the basement dwellers with the best gear do not. RL>OP in a game but no life.

  User Deleted
9/27/12 1:42:06 PM#9

People exploiting piss poor developer code has nothing to do with dedicated pvpers kicking everyone backside and learning the best "builds" for their class.

 

If a specific class/build is OP or has an OP "move" then it tends to be the case that I blame the developer, not the people actually playing the class.

 

Do competitive pvpers who faceroll people who don't min/max correctly and who run around like headless chickens bother me? Nope.

 

People who blitz to endgame in PVE don't bother me in the slightest either btw.

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1466

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

9/27/12 1:49:47 PM#10

Some people take games way too seriously. Me... I just play to have fun.

 

Competitive faceroller's dont bother me and some are such asshats that they just give me a good laugh.

I made a double sided USB cable and I plugged my Console into my PC... or did I plug my PC into my Console? Anyway I can now play Console games on my PC! and play PC games on my Console!

FRIGGING AWESOME!

  MurlockDance

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1216

9/27/12 1:50:18 PM#11

OP builds whether in PvE or PvP suck, as do games that force people to min max to compete with or against each other. Inherent in that min maxing is the whole gear equation. A lot of endgames of course offer that as one of the main methods of play once you have hit max level/skill ability. I am not really that keen on that, especially in PvP.

Why should a person who spent more time acquiring the best gear be able to roflstomp someone who might actually have more skill but the numbers are against him. Most raiders I have met are actually terrible at other forms of PvE and PvP. They only are propped up by superior gear, which is usually so good that it outdoes everything else.

I am not just talking about WoW here, virtually every game with raiding in it is like that (DAoC, EQ1 and 2, AO, etc.).

Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/27/12 7:11:07 PM#12
Originally posted by MurlockDance

OP builds whether in PvE or PvP suck, as do games that force people to min max to compete with or against each other. Inherent in that min maxing is the whole gear equation. A lot of endgames of course offer that as one of the main methods of play once you have hit max level/skill ability. I am not really that keen on that, especially in PvP.

Why should a person who spent more time acquiring the best gear be able to roflstomp someone who might actually have more skill but the numbers are against him. Most raiders I have met are actually terrible at other forms of PvE and PvP. They only are propped up by superior gear, which is usually so good that it outdoes everything else.

I am not just talking about WoW here, virtually every game with raiding in it is like that (DAoC, EQ1 and 2, AO, etc.).

Gear in many games is kind of ludicrous.  It's difficult not to touch upon WoW with this one though, since it offers such a shining (dark shining that is) example of the situation.  I remember just before Cata, taking a look at my character and his gear.  Took all of his gear off - looked at his stats.  Put on some basic greens - looked at the stats.  Put on some basic blues - looked at the stats.  Put on some basic purps - looked at the stats.  Put on my best purps - looked at the stats.  Rolled a level 1 toon and looked at the stats...

...it was mind boggling.

But yeah, WoW's not alone in the ludicrous gear arena by any means.

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  Connoisseur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/05/04
Posts: 276

9/28/12 5:33:58 AM#13

Nah, what actually bothers me is the poor game design that would allow this to happen.

I'm ok with players who put in the time and effort to research/analyze the game to the point where they're able to trump me. Yet, I'm against being trumped by players who simply have more time to grind their way to superiority, because the only factor is time, not actual critical evaluation, skill or analysis on the player's part.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12278

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

9/28/12 7:00:58 AM#14

I've always been fascinated by good PVPers, especially the far ends of the spectrum - the successful solo PVPer and the large coordinated fleets/armies.

Does it bother me that they can faceroll me within seconds of entering the match? Nope.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Z3R01

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/09/08
Posts: 2459

MMO gamer since 1997

9/28/12 7:08:02 AM#15

I've accepted a long time ago that the mono gamer will always be a better gamer than myself.

People that do a ton of research, devote massive amount of hours into one game and take it much more serious than myself should be better.

So I have no issue with these people in both PVP and PVE.

Playing: None

Waiting on: None

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5543

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/28/12 7:15:42 AM#16
An ELO rating system or ladders fix facerolling in PvP matches, but in open world PvP, you are getting what you asked for.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky