Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by Azzataky

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by Random_mage
Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone

Lets stop pretending there was choice or uniqueness in the old system, there wasn't.  

Oh there was choice, but unless you picked the right one, you had no chance of doing something. But thats problem in many games. A lot of choices, but something is always overpowered for that particular class, that you are not "allowed" to play anything else.

I cant agree, with you. Here an example about vanilla wow: I was a rogue and i was spec combat cause i liked having 2 swords and fighting like a blade dancer.

Now if im rember correctly, almost all my rogue guildmate was going for dagger and assassination. They ask me: why you dont re-spec like us, you will do more dps in raid, i said because i dont like the style you play, sneak and backstab is not for me, i prefer frienzy style with sword.The subjec was closed. Did someone force me to change no.

Oh yes, you are right, there were some classes which could do more builds, but usualy there was one which was "best" and wanted. But I sadly did't play WoW at vanilla, just BC for a while and mostly in Wotlk which was horrible, at least I hated end game. Leveling was fun. I liked my priest. :D But not many people wanted pvp heal in dungeon, or dps priest, so I had to respec for pve heal talent build. I miss healing and true support class in GW 2. Felt in love with support till Lineage 2 and my prophet and swordsinger. :P

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I'm leveling a monk. I broke down and bout the dam thing if for nothing than to kill a month.
Frankly, I think the OP is going a bit overboard. Yes, he has some legitimate criticism. But in the end, I think WoW just saved everyone the time it takes to go over to Elitist Jerks, copy the build and plug it in talent for talent, half the time without even thinking about the reasoning. Yep, EJ figured it out, good enough for me. Now just give me my rotation macros. Because that's all it really was. You either had a cookie cutter spec, or you were kicked from teams.

Yeah, I used to love theory crafting and being in control over my talent choices and rotations and such, but really, did you ever really have it? No.

A lot of what OP is complaining about isn't new. It's how WoW has always been played. Blizz just took it away from the stupid people.

But then again, that's all you can really expect from this game. I think I'll get my money's worth, But I doubt I'll have the sub for more than the single month

What server you on Geez?

I am going to break down and buy this damn thing as well- I have not played since WOTLK came out (bought it but was not happy and hated Death Kniights)- If I have to play a damn theme park (since that seems to be the only things being made decently) it might as well be WOW. =/

Anyhow I ask because based on your posts you seem like someone who has similar tastes and feelings like myself. I was on Lightninghoof (pretty sure that was the servers name) and am going to be resubbing here this evening.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

I'm leveling a monk. I broke down and bout the dam thing if for nothing than to kill a month.
Frankly, I think the OP is going a bit overboard. Yes, he has some legitimate criticism. But in the end, I think WoW just saved everyone the time it takes to go over to Elitist Jerks, copy the build and plug it in talent for talent, half the time without even thinking about the reasoning. Yep, EJ figured it out, good enough for me. Now just give me my rotation macros. Because that's all it really was. You either had a cookie cutter spec, or you were kicked from teams.

Yeah, I used to love theory crafting and being in control over my talent choices and rotations and such, but really, did you ever really have it? No.

A lot of what OP is complaining about isn't new. It's how WoW has always been played. Blizz just took it away from the stupid people.

But then again, that's all you can really expect from this game. I think I'll get my money's worth, But I doubt I'll have the sub for more than the single month

I think that pretty much nails it on the head. Blizz is basically responding to what the community was already doing. Blizz is funneling people towards builds that won't get you kicked from teams.

That said, I still think there will be "optimal" or preferred builds teams will want.

Originally posted by Mike-McQueen
Couldn't play this even if I got it for free.

LOL-

I think you summed up my own feelings for the last few years regarding WOW.

Problem is, since leaving WOW nothing has "grabbed me" for very long and I have pissed a ton of money away on things which were very sub par. I hate Theme Parks to begin with but right now there isnt anything being well made outside of them parks (IMHO) and I am bored =/

So... If you cant beat em'- Join 'em lolz

Originally posted by stringboi

I agree somewhat...but I think they did away with a system that just wasnt the best anyway...at least not anymore.  I know not all, but a majority of the dedicated players went for the best build for the spec and it was basically a cookie cutter model anyway.  Yah you could change a few talents here and there, but the were pretty much meaningless anyway.   I dont see the big deal unless you were really into experimenting and it made a huge difference to your playstyle, which I dont think it did....just my view.  Yah its different, but look where we started, it was slowly heading to this anyway.

I think the main issue I have with the changes concern the timing and mixed messages Blizzard has sent.

Up until MoP players who weren't into Raiding or PvP complained at how little "Endgame" content there was for them. Blizzard responded by adding Scenarios and 50 Daily Quests from a pool of 300.

So now that they have finally added content for "non-optimal" players... they take away the ability for anybody to create soloing or hybrid specs.

I think the changes are far better for balancing the Raiding and PvP portions of the game and will have little-to-no impact on how people play there. For the others... this kinda sucks.

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by Random_mage
Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone

What's worse is that now the game goes as far as to tell you what your specs "optimal" rotation is and when you should be using which abilities.

I've never paid attention to my shot rotations before. Didn't care. Don't need to be "best". Now, everytime I do something that is not in my "optimal" rotation, I expect a popup window that says: "You're playing it wrong"(tm).

This is what comes of a company deciding to fix created content and game balance isssues by taking away the freedom of the player. "We're tired of having to do all that work so from now on you will only play how we tell you to play."

 Agree.

The funny thing is that I actually liked the idea of the talent trees in WoW...being that you had the option to play one class in a multitude of different ways based on how you specced.  And there was an element of exploration and discovery where it was exciting when you found a spec that really worked well.

The problem was that a few "optimal" builds emerged, and you basically were railroaded into one of the optimal builds.  This reduced potentially thousands of talent combinations to like...3 viable ones.  Now I'm not saying that every talent combo should be viable or optimal...it would just be nice if there were more viable options than there wound up being.

I haven't played MoP, but from what you guys are saying, it sounds like Blizzard just said "F it" to the problem of trying to make several talent builds viable and dumbed everything down to the point where you can ONLY select the optimal builds...yeah not very fun in my book.

Originally posted by Parasitenoir

Yeah but then I ask you this.  How many builds did you play that wernt - researched and spec'd as cookie cutter or for top DPS in PVE or PVP.  I mean before yes you had more stuff to click on, but even then everyone was just running the same builds.  TO maximize dps that was all.  People were not playing it as an RPG, people just min/max because of the competitive edge that wow gives with world first raids and the RBGS and Arena.

 

Now with the new talents, you do not have to worry about the Min/Maxing aspect of the game.  You can with gems i guess but that is also up to the player.  Now with the abilites everyone can be a little different and not worry about min/max but what 6 abiliites best suit my playstyel and let me do what I want to do.

 

 

 

Also the hunter thing - that does suck - u cant have melee weaps and a bow ne more.  Really lame.

im happy they got rid of melee wep's....i used to see some really really sad hunter's that would actually melee instead of using their bow....now they have no choice but a bigger problem ive seen now is that 90% of hunters in dungeons will keep "growl" turned on for their pets...and no matter how much me (when im tanking) or the tank (when im healing/dps'ing) ask they never turn it off...theres a reason they got the nickname huntard lol xD

There have been many changes over the years. Pretty much everyone of them has simplified and dumbed down the game. I really enjoyed the game a few years back and I quit because some of the changes they made back then changed the game enough for me to leave.

I really enjoyed the class quest's. I enjoyed getting keyed for dungeons and raids. I enjoyed getting spanked in the original Scholomance. I loved the ideaI of having to visit the forge in Lower Blackrock to forge dark iron. To visit the alchemy lab in Scholomance. All this attention to detail just made an awesome and adventuresome game for me. It's all a matter of taste for what we enjoy and dont enjoy.

I hope that one day someone will make an MMORPG that gives me that kind of "magic" that WoW gave to me back then. If someone ever does I hope they expand on what makes their game special and not dumb it down.

World of Warcraft for better or worse is not the same game that it used to be.

Originally posted by Mike-McQueen
Wouldn't play this even if I got it for free.

Oh man, and here I was about to pay for the game and all expansions and a year sub for you. Oh well...darn.

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Originally posted by Creslin321

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Originally posted by Tardcore

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Originally posted by WhiteLantern

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Originally posted by Random_mage Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone

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What's worse is that now the game goes as far as to tell you what your specs "optimal" rotation is and when you should be using which abilities. I've never paid attention to my shot rotations before. Didn't care. Don't need to be "best". Now, everytime I do something that is not in my "optimal" rotation, I expect a popup window that says: "You're playing it wrong"(tm).

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This is what comes of a company deciding to fix created content and game balance isssues by taking away the freedom of the player. "We're tired of having to do all that work so from now on you will only play how we tell you to play."

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 Agree.

The funny thing is that I actually liked the idea of the talent trees in WoW...being that you had the option to play one class in a multitude of different ways based on how you specced.  And there was an element of exploration and discovery where it was exciting when you found a spec that really worked well.

The problem was that a few "optimal" builds emerged, and you basically were railroaded into one of the optimal builds.  This reduced potentially thousands of talent combinations to like...3 viable ones.  Now I'm not saying that every talent combo should be viable or optimal...it would just be nice if there were more viable options than there wound up being.

I haven't played MoP, but from what you guys are saying, it sounds like Blizzard just said "F it" to the problem of trying to make several talent builds viable and dumbed everything down to the point where you can ONLY select the optimal builds...yeah not very fun in my book.

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When I subbed to Rift the 1st time. It was because of the Soul System. I read it and thought. Nice, I can build a character to fit any play style I want. And for the 1st 49 levels, It was, I was thrilled. I could experiment not just with optimizing my build but altering entire builds altogether. Yeah, then the level 50 cookie cutter specs came out. That actually was a game breaker for me, I left the game. I eventually came back because there was nothing better and ultimately found a reason to enjoy the game beyond builds. But in the end, as complicated a build system as Rift has, in the end, it's no better than what MoP currently offers.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by Random_mage
Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone

What's worse is that now the game goes as far as to tell you what your specs "optimal" rotation is and when you should be using which abilities.

I've never paid attention to my shot rotations before. Didn't care. Don't need to be "best". Now, everytime I do something that is not in my "optimal" rotation, I expect a popup window that says: "You're playing it wrong"(tm).

This is what comes of a company deciding to fix created content and game balance isssues by taking away the freedom of the player. "We're tired of having to do all that work so from now on you will only play how we tell you to play."

 Agree.

The funny thing is that I actually liked the idea of the talent trees in WoW...being that you had the option to play one class in a multitude of different ways based on how you specced.  And there was an element of exploration and discovery where it was exciting when you found a spec that really worked well.

The problem was that a few "optimal" builds emerged, and you basically were railroaded into one of the optimal builds.  This reduced potentially thousands of talent combinations to like...3 viable ones.  Now I'm not saying that every talent combo should be viable or optimal...it would just be nice if there were more viable options than there wound up being.

I haven't played MoP, but from what you guys are saying, it sounds like Blizzard just said "F it" to the problem of trying to make several talent builds viable and dumbed everything down to the point where you can ONLY select the optimal builds...yeah not very fun in my book.

I think a big reason for people using places like EJ and copying optimal builds was because of the Armory. It spawned alot of elitist jerks and pressured alot of player's into playing an optimal build for fear of being teased.

Diablo 3 ruinning even other games... Blizz its really good at jokes now.

But i still want to see "Titan"

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by Random_mage
Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone

Lets stop pretending there was choice or uniqueness in the old system, there wasn't.  

[mod edit]

My Warrior was not a cookie cutter build, it was my own custom build and it worked so well that others ask me for my spec so they could copy it.  I would do dungeon runs and people would ask how I could tank this well as others could not.  

Trust me, more people had customer builds than you think, just because you could not create a custom build that worked and had to rely on others to make up builds for you, does not mean others did the same.

[mod edit]

Originally posted by laserit

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by Random_mage
Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone

What's worse is that now the game goes as far as to tell you what your specs "optimal" rotation is and when you should be using which abilities.

I've never paid attention to my shot rotations before. Didn't care. Don't need to be "best". Now, everytime I do something that is not in my "optimal" rotation, I expect a popup window that says: "You're playing it wrong"(tm).

This is what comes of a company deciding to fix created content and game balance isssues by taking away the freedom of the player. "We're tired of having to do all that work so from now on you will only play how we tell you to play."

 Agree.

The funny thing is that I actually liked the idea of the talent trees in WoW...being that you had the option to play one class in a multitude of different ways based on how you specced.  And there was an element of exploration and discovery where it was exciting when you found a spec that really worked well.

The problem was that a few "optimal" builds emerged, and you basically were railroaded into one of the optimal builds.  This reduced potentially thousands of talent combinations to like...3 viable ones.  Now I'm not saying that every talent combo should be viable or optimal...it would just be nice if there were more viable options than there wound up being.

I haven't played MoP, but from what you guys are saying, it sounds like Blizzard just said "F it" to the problem of trying to make several talent builds viable and dumbed everything down to the point where you can ONLY select the optimal builds...yeah not very fun in my book.

I think a big reason for people using places like EJ and copying optimal builds was because of the Armory. It spawned alot of elitist jerks and pressured alot of player's into playing an optimal build for fear of being teased.

Not teased, but not allowed to raid with them.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by Random_mage
Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone

Lets stop pretending there was choice or uniqueness in the old system, there wasn't.  

Ummmmm......yes, yes there was. You could choose to spec all they way down one tree and be completely different than the other trees, or you could mix-and-match from each tree and be a snowflake, too.

 

"Gimping" was once a valid choice.

Umm, no that never was an option. The main reason was the trees where designed to be picked 1 at a time. But like always a few have to ruin it for everybody. People started getting op builds by specking half on 1 tree and half on another completely braking the game. Now, if you actually think about it and don't go "whaaaa whaaaa, change is bad whaaa" you will see that each option within a tier is meaning full and makes a huge difference between char and char. I could be a paladin with repentance for pve, but then another paladin might want a 30 sec stun or a 50% movement speed debuff. It all comes down to playstyles, which at the end means more diversity. They are not telling you how to play like tar score claims, they are giving you parameters and letting yiu go free. Now it doesn't matter if yiu rather have a charge on your Druid or prefer a 15% permanent speed increase. 

Originally posted by sr7olsniper

 they are giving you parameters and letting yiu go free. Now it doesn't matter if yiu rather have a charge on your Druid or prefer a 15% permanent speed increase. 

.. LOL.. that's funny.. 

Here, go run free in this playpen.. 

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by expresso

Originally posted by Random_mage
Thats the point.. The 6 abilities. Classes that did multiply things all melded to one. Class distimction.. Gone

Lets stop pretending there was choice or uniqueness in the old system, there wasn't.  

[mod edit]

My Warrior was not a cookie cutter build, it was my own custom build and it worked so well that others ask me for my spec so they could copy it.  I would do dungeon runs and people would ask how I could tank this well as others could not.  

 

Trust me, more people had customer builds than you think, just because you could not create a custom build that worked and had to rely on others to make up builds for you, does not mean others did the same.

 

[mod edit]

[mod edit]  Even on classic talents were a no brainer, you either wanted more DPS or survavility; that is all it came down to. Lemme give you an example so you don't hurt your brain thinking too much; I ever looked up sites that gave you the best builds, I always did them myself. I looked at the options and looked for what worked for me, little you know that I would then go and check the "cookie cutter" sites and they had the same spec I had. It just proves to show that anyone that had a bit of intelligence and knew what they wanted todo would always choose the same specs. Now that is gone and all the options are viable depending an your individual play style. If anything you could do stuff now that you couldn't before, like have a warrior tank with bladestorm, a double charge. Options are all about how yiu what to play your class.

Originally posted by Random_mage

Originally posted by sr7olsniper

 they are giving you parameters and letting yiu go free. Now it doesn't matter if yiu rather have a charge on your Druid or prefer a 15% permanent speed increase. 

.. LOL.. that's funny.. 

 

Here, go run free in this playpen.. 

Umm that's always how it s. you can't do stuff the game is not coded for. That is like saying that I want my GW2 char to fly like my aion char. The game doesn't allow it so I have to play with in the parameters. [mod edit]