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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Themeparks, like Sandboxes, are actually a "Niche"....

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51 posts found
  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

9/27/12 12:57:30 PM#21
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

9/27/12 12:58:27 PM#22
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

For starters by cutting out part of my post and leaving in the part I quoted you distorted my post immediately, nicely done.

 

The success of a product or products does not define the market as a whole. 10 new theme parks could be released and all fail, but if 1) the majority of MMO gamers are in theme park MMOs (as they currently are and have been for years) then that is the main market and 2) If for every sandbox MMO that is released 10 theme park MMOs get released  then you can see where the market focus is in companies.

 

Eve is a successful sandbox, but arguable the only successful one that exists and has existed for years. Darkfall has a tiny amount of players compared to any major MMO, it truly matters not in defining the market and is a great definition of niche market by being a FFA PvP world.

 

What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

9/27/12 12:58:48 PM#23
Originally posted by Jaedor

Why does every other gaming company look to WoW? Really simple: 9 million paying subscribers (at last press release). It doesn't matter if themeparks are a niche or not. What matters is cash flow and profitability.

As long as WoW has the lion's share of paying subscribers for an mmo, every other game maker will want a piece of their action. You could substitute WoW for any other game that is equally successful.

That doesn't change the fact that that's the more moronic business scheme of all time and has literally never worked in 8 years.

Not only that, but those numbers are NOT accurate sub numbers. Not even close.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

9/27/12 1:00:37 PM#24
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...


 

What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

It's not about what I like, it's about profitability.

Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1597

9/27/12 1:01:53 PM#25
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

 Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. 

The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  Tasos even said as much. 

Nice spin though, but your wrong. 

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

9/27/12 1:03:26 PM#26
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...


 

What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

It's not about what I like, it's about profitability.

Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

Your random picking of part of a post while leaving the whole post that it quoted in is fascinating.

 

You need to look up what markets mean. You hate theme parks, we get it. But until there are more games/players involved in sandbox MMOs vs theme park MMOs then theme parks remain as the main market in MMOs. There is no arguing that, there is no opinion on that. That is how it works.

 

You can also have the main market overcrowded, which is what many people feel the theme park MMO market is, but again it doesn't make it not the main market.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1597

9/27/12 1:04:21 PM#27
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...


 

What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

It's not about what I like, it's about profitability.

Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

 Only one subscription based sandbox has grown, and that is EVE.  UO, who knows, but it sure isn't gaining subs.  MO and DF both have steadilly lost subs sinse their release, that's a fact. 

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

9/27/12 1:05:34 PM#28
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

 Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

9/27/12 1:06:12 PM#29
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf  

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...


 

What YOU like does not define a market. You can love sandboxes and love to play EvE and Darkfall, but that does not change that by a massive majority the main market of MMOs right now is theme park.

It's not about what I like, it's about profitability.

Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

 Only one subscription based sandbox has grown, and that is EVE.  UO, who knows, but it sure isn't gaining subs.  MO and DF both have steadilly lost subs sinse their release, that's a fact. 

MO has because it's a joke. Darkfall has not. It has flucuated but has overall gone up.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1597

9/27/12 1:08:56 PM#30
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

 Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

 I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

  SneakyRussian

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 56

9/27/12 1:11:48 PM#31
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

 Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

 I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

@Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

 

What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

9/27/12 1:12:08 PM#32
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

Eve is growing by 50k subs every 6 month in a linear fashion since its launch. It has currently ~350k subs (2012).

At that rate, it will reach notability (2M subs, ~10% of the market) in 2028, when I can probably buy a real spaceship.

Afaik, Darkfall has ~10k subs tops.

Growing, maybe, significant any time soon? nope.

Even if they would manage to double their subs every 3 years, they still wouldn't reach notability by the time everyone of us is dead.

Steadily growing isn't doing them any good if there is a peak like WoW experienced in 2011.

We can now say with confidence that the market for "classic" or "traditional" MMOs (both DF and WoW fall into this category) is roughly 22 Million (source: MMODATA.net), there just isn't more fresh subscriptions to be had, and the competition for subs is on.

350k subs just isn't a large part of the cake. Even if you take all the major sandboxes together (EVE, Perpetuum, DF, MO, DS etc.) you get not more than maybe 500k.

Since the competition is already been going on for a while and the growth of sanbox is essentially glacial, I don't see this as a large market to be tapped anytime soon.

Also please don't forget that operating costs of MMOs don't scale as well as your revenue.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19086

9/27/12 1:13:58 PM#33
Originally posted by DavisFlight
 

So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

They convinced some investors to throw money at them?

Stranger things have happen. Alganon has an expansion coming too. How do you explain THAT?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19086

9/27/12 1:15:08 PM#34
Originally posted by DavisFlight

Themepark MMOs, for the last 8 years, have been a one way ticket into financial failure. Meanwhile, sandbox MMOs have been the only MMOs in the last 8 years to steadily grow over time.

really?

DDO is putting out a new expansion.

LOTRO is still running.

DCUO is adding content.

wait .. wow just released an expansion.

What financial failure?

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1597

9/27/12 1:17:22 PM#35
Originally posted by SneakyRussian
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

 Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

 I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

@Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

 

What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

 AV has defense contracts with Greece, that's how they afford to do things with a game that isn't making them money.  No one redevelopes a game because it steadily grows, you do it when it's failing.  Their ability to do that has nothing at all to do with the game. 

They do not just make games.   

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

9/27/12 1:18:02 PM#36
Originally posted by SneakyRussian
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

 Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

 I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

@Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

 

What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

I dont have experience of business and shit, but I've heard about this Project Copernicus and that little company called Big Huge Games that released their game, got shitty sales then started "expanding" their business to make an MMO.

Afaik everyone knows how that ended.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

9/27/12 1:52:17 PM#37
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

 Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

 I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

Haha wow, nice fiction there bud. The deals with the Greek defense happened in 2006, 3 years before Darkfall launched. It was a one time thing. Do you honestly believe the Greek MILITARY funded the office, the game, and the new developers?

You honestly believe that, your fantastical story that has NO EVIDENCE, against what the devs have said themselves?

 

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

9/27/12 1:57:12 PM#38
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by SneakyRussian
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Niche (nich): "a distinct segment of a market."

 
 
 
 

 

That is far more accurate to how the term is used in all of the English speaking world. So by that more accurate definition Themeparks are not at all a niche market in MMOs, they are currently the main market.

That MMO market have you been around lately? Because the most successful "themepark" (almost always synonymous with WOW clone) was Rift, and that had to merge servers within a month and failed to even pass hardcore MMOs like EQ.

If SWTOR, WAR, and AoC are the "main market" then I'm scared for the genre. Meanwhile we have sandboxes like Eve and Darkfall that are steadily growing over time...

Since when is Darkfall growing?

Since over the course of 3 years they've opened a second server, hired 30 more devs (more than doubling AV's staff) moved into a larger office building, and are relaunching an overhaul of the game for free?

You don't do that when you're bleeding money.

 Not of that had anything to do with the game growing.  Thanks for demonstrating you have no idea how the business world works. The new server wasn't opened because the EU one ran out of room, it opened because NA players needed a server closer to them. Wrong. There were almost daily posts by people who said they werent going to buy the game until an NA server came out. Meanwhile the EU server had a long queue to get into it.

The relaunch was directly related to the fact that the DF needed to many fixes to make it feasible to just patch and make an expansion, and so that they could attempt to draw in more players with a better game.  And you think a game that wasn't a success would have the money to pull that off in 2 years? Tasos even said as much. 

Nice spin though, but your wrong. Learn to spell bud.

So how do you explain the free overhaul? Or the 30 new developers? If Darkfall never grew, how did they afford the new office? The relaunch?

Your story doesn't add up. Mine does.

 I only ran a succesfull small business for over a decade, and at an age when most guys are still trying to figure out how to talk to women.  I'm pretty sure I know EXACTLY how business works from the ground up.

No your story doesn't add up because the guy in charge of the game has said the complete opposite of what you're saying.

All of AV's money is got through defense contracts with Greece, learn a little bit about the company your cheerleading.    

@Uhwop....DavisFlight's logic is fairly straight forward.

 

What about your "experience" of running your own small business leads you to believe AV hasn't grown if they've hired 30 more developers etc etc?

I dont have experience of business and shit, but I've heard about this Project Copernicus and that little company called Big Huge Games that released their game, got shitty sales then started "expanding" their business to make an MMO.

Afaik everyone knows how that ended.

That's funny, because not only is that not even CLOSE to when happened with Project Copernicus, but it's not even remotely relavent to what's happening in Darkfall.

 

37 Studios got funding from Rhode Island to make an MMO. They worked on the MMO for about 4-5 years. Another studio was developing a singleplayer RPG on their own. 37 Studios bought the singleplayer RPG studio and had them reskin the game so that it was in the same world/IP as the MMO they were making.

The singleplayer game released and did really well.

The MMO was delayed again. Finally, they just ran out of money.

 

Darkfall on the other hand, was an MMO that was created on a budget of 1,000,000 dollars. They made a profit off of it so they reinvested it into their own company, to hire 30 more devs, get a bigger office, and overhaul the game. Now that they had the experience and staff to make the game how they always wanted, they could afford an overhaul. That could not have happened if Darkfall was a financial failure.

 

Understand now?

  Aelious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2293

World > Quest Progression

9/27/12 2:05:11 PM#39
Originally posted by Jaedor

Why does every other gaming company look to WoW? Really simple: 9 million paying subscribers (at last press release). It doesn't matter if themeparks are a niche or not. What matters is cash flow and profitability.

As long as WoW has the lion's share of paying subscribers for an mmo, every other game maker will want a piece

of their action. You could substitute WoW for any other game that is equally successful.

 

True and this idea was obviously shared by other developers and/or thier investors because we've gotten a handful of MMOs, similar to WoW's model, in the last year.

 

What happened to them?

 

Downsized and either swimming to F2P shores or struggling.  WoW's model only works for WoW.  Rift has successfully taken a small chunk or gained their own but each of the others (swtor, tera, tsw) have obviously not.  Not as much as they needed to get by anyway.  I'm not that they aren't good games it's just the model they follow draws a quick in and out reaction from a majority of the players.

 

That's why I think, or agree with others of like mind, that the next wave of successful MMOs will be social sandbox titles that offer the full combat system you get now with tools to make you feel like part of the gameworld.  Does "successful" mean a gagillion subs? No but a good MMO should grow over time.

  apocoluster

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/15/07
Posts: 1287

\m/,

9/27/12 2:13:37 PM#40

People sure do like to argue  O.o

 

 

*lol do i win teh obvious statement of the day*

No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin

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