15 years later.  I'm still getting go kill 10 rats quests.

Just because you change the numbers into a slide bar, and automatically give me the quest, it doesn't mean I'm not still getting more kill 10 rats quests.

beware, some game have tried a minimal, partial kind of "time evolution". lotro and coh for example, change the environment you find around you in certain part of the game based on some act you did.

It's really really limited, coh has (should I say had?) it just in (new) atlas park, in the first mission after the tutorial, and lotro only in some part of dunland based on your point in the epic history.

There is a lot that can improve beyond quests and dynamic events, true. But I just mentioned one of many possible ways we could change things.

When we made WoW, we looked around and said, let's make a themepark...but we could have chosen anything. There were so many types of MMOs before WoW, and Blizzard took just ONE of them and popularized it.

We can dig back and find lots of other ideas to mine and shape and polish as WoW did. I see lots of potential in online games if we can just take our WoW blinders off.

It's irritating to see so many focus on the title and ignore the content.  

The "AI Director" concept I first heard of used in relation to Left 4 Dead, where it supposedly spawned zombies according to how desparate the situation was, among other factors.  I never really noticed it in that game, but I think that's the way it should be: you should feel like you're just playing the game, not feel like you're being directed.

The way I read this, it's like playing a dungeon crawler with a random map generator, only with an MMO and randomly generated events rather than maps.  The problem I forsee is that if you want to make a massive world, you have to be generating these events for every single player at any given time, or restrict them to an area, both of which don't solve the time/money/repetition problem.  What you'd need to do is shift away from the "individual that can group to take on huge world" to a more co-op/guild focused game where you HAVE to group up and form relationships to succeed.  It puts off solo players, but it breaks up the userbase into more managable chunks that allow you to better plan events for them.

I don't know about anything else but I predict that GW2 has killed off the idea of exclusive gathering nodes. I think everybody will switch to shared gathering nodes except EVE Online, because EVE is always different. But everyone else will. And not just because people like not having to fight over nodes are hate having nodes ninja'd while they fight the mob but because the developers can better control how much a player can harvest from a node. If nodes as not shared then you have to spawn them faster so that others can come though the area and be able to harvest as well, at least in a reasonable time frame. If you share the nodes then you can make the respawn time much longer because everybody will get a crack at the node. Then you can space out the refresh long enough to discourage people from farming a small area.

It is a very small thing but that is also what makes the change safe and easy for other MMOs to transition to.

Originally posted by Caldrin

open world sandbox games end of...

 

 

Themepark has been dead for me for ages.. GW2 did not bring anything new, sure it did thigns a tiny bit different but its the same old thing..

 

Instead of quest hubs with numerous quests to do, you get a map with 10-20 heart quests.. oh wow how amazing and different is that.. instead of interacting with NPCs you now just get the quest when your near the heart.. wow thanks..

So called dynamic events are not really that dynamic and are just basically heart quests that are not active al lthe time.. this has been done before...

at the end of the day people like GW2 and fair enough im happy for them but to be it really didnt bring anything good to themepark mmorpgs..

 

 

Anyway has i stated at the start..

 

Openworld sandbox MMOs should be the future.. im not saying that they have to be full loot hardcore PVP games (some should be of course).. but its quite clear that themeparks are boring as hell and most people want somthing different..

A sandbox is merely a themepark in which the devs have made the unfortunate mistake of giving the players the tools to create the rides instead of doing it themselves..

So we get go mine 10000 ores for the empire/company/faction instead of  joe bob needs 10 ores, no thanks...

As far as GW2 goes it is one of the best themeparks ever made and it is the real deal epic themepark but it needs many more big rides added with a little more fire and a bigger set of balls in their implimentation..

Hopefully anet will finish the innovations they started with revolutionary additions..

Originally posted by Eir_S
I agree that even better dynamic events are the future, GW2 just opened the door a little wider.  Time is certainly a factor I haven't seen used in their implimentation yet.  Good ideas, Mark!  It's exciting to think about.  Quest hubs had their time in the sun.

 

I really doubt that. As Trion's devs said that players love questing so NPC offering quest isn't going anywhere. In his words 'there is something ZEN about completing quests' and i agree with it.

I don't want questign to be gone just like how i don't want every MMO to be littered with DE's. I want both. options and choices is better. I can think for myself and don't want game devs to save me.

"change everything: kinda depends on perspective.    Does not seem to me like GW2 'changed everything'.   

In example AO, SWG and EvE seem much farther from themself than GW2 is from WoW. 

This is not bashing of GW2, since I don't think that's bad thing.

I've heard the MMORPG audience is a tough crowd. I think you guys have every right to be angry that MMOs haven't changed much in the past 10 years. Glad to see people still want more, as it really makes me want to figure out what the "more" is as a game maker.

- Mark Kern

I don't understand why so many players think of GW2s dynamic events as the evolution of the theme park genre? If I was playing a theme park MMO (and I am currently doing that with LotRO) I would certainly prefer quest hubs.

In my eyes GW2s dynamic events are a big fail. You often stumble into an event without knowing whats going on, just trying to hit a few monsters to get at least a bronze medal. Without quest hubs there is absolutely no connection to the surrounding area or npcs.

I still remember the different areas in WoW. I can still draw a pretty accurate map of - let's say - Westfall out of my head. I even remember some NPC names. In GW2 I can not even remember the starting grounds. I am rushing through different areas from event to event... it all feels sterile, lifeless and artificial. 

GW2s dynamic events are just fast food action for ADD kids.

Originally posted by Caldrin

open world sandbox games end of...

 

 

Themepark has been dead for me for ages.. GW2 did not bring anything new, sure it did thigns a tiny bit different but its the same old thing..

 

Instead of quest hubs with numerous quests to do, you get a map with 10-20 heart quests.. oh wow how amazing and different is that.. instead of interacting with NPCs you now just get the quest when your near the heart.. wow thanks..

So called dynamic events are not really that dynamic and are just basically heart quests that are not active al lthe time.. this has been done before...

at the end of the day people like GW2 and fair enough im happy for them but to be it really didnt bring anything good to themepark mmorpgs..

 

 

Anyway has i stated at the start..

 

Openworld sandbox MMOs should be the future.. im not saying that they have to be full loot hardcore PVP games (some should be of course).. but its quite clear that themeparks are boring as hell and most people want somthing different..

Maybe for you but I don't like Openworld sandbox MMOs like Skyrim and the like. I actually like some design and some structure of where I'm going and heading. The only factor if it's quality or not.

Just like how people like their Call of Duty, sports, etc, they won't radically change. This type of MMO is here to stay because it works and people like it.

Originally posted by Sentime

15 years later.  I'm still getting go kill 10 rats quests.

Just because you change the numbers into a slide bar, and automatically give me the quest, it doesn't mean I'm not still getting more kill 10 rats quests.

+1

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Originally posted by grummz

I've heard the MMORPG audience is a tough crowd. I think you guys have every right to be angry that MMOs haven't changed much in the past 10 years. Glad to see people still want more, as it really makes me want to figure out what the "more" is as a game maker.

- Mark Kern

And I do not envy you in your task Sir, as trying to find out what we as players want from an MMO must be quite like the parable of the blind men describing an elephant.

Originally posted by dageeza

Originally posted by Caldrin

open world sandbox games end of...

 

 

Themepark has been dead for me for ages.. GW2 did not bring anything new, sure it did thigns a tiny bit different but its the same old thing..

 

Instead of quest hubs with numerous quests to do, you get a map with 10-20 heart quests.. oh wow how amazing and different is that.. instead of interacting with NPCs you now just get the quest when your near the heart.. wow thanks..

So called dynamic events are not really that dynamic and are just basically heart quests that are not active al lthe time.. this has been done before...

at the end of the day people like GW2 and fair enough im happy for them but to be it really didnt bring anything good to themepark mmorpgs..

 

 

Anyway has i stated at the start..

 

Openworld sandbox MMOs should be the future.. im not saying that they have to be full loot hardcore PVP games (some should be of course).. but its quite clear that themeparks are boring as hell and most people want somthing different..

A sandbox is merely a themepark in which the devs have made the unfortunate mistake of giving the players the tools to create the rides instead of doing it themselves..

So we get go mine 10000 ores for the empire/company/faction instead of  joe bob needs 10 ores, no thanks...

As far as GW2 goes it is one of the best themeparks ever made and it is the real deal epic themepark but it needs many more big rides added with a little more fire and a bigger set of balls in their implimentation..

Hopefully anet will finish the innovations they started with revolutionary additions..

 

The diffence is that collecting the 10000 ore in a sandbox affects the world, the faction can then use that ore to make something which in turn affects the world, that change then affects something else, that is true dynamism, not a static event that runs on a loop.

Originally posted by Deerhunter71

Originally posted by Eir_S
I agree that even better dynamic events are the future, GW2 just opened the door a little wider.  Time is certainly a factor I haven't seen used in their implimentation yet.  Good ideas, Mark!  It's exciting to think about.  Quest hubs had their time in the sun.

 

Huh?  How did they open the door wider?  I saw the exact same thing in Warhammer and then Rift.....

Warhammer made the quest public and allowed people to jump in on the fly without grouping.

Rift made the events spawn at random locations and time and increased the complexity of the stages.

GW2 made it so what event is spawned depends on the state of the world at the time. If the centaurs control the camp then the event for centaurs attacking the camp cannot start, Instead the event for the humans taking back the camp starts. GW2 opened the door to events being reactive to the environment. It is not a huge or noticable shift but it is an important step towards making the whole experience more realistic.

Guild Wars 2 needs randomness. By now everything in that game is spread across some wiki page for anyone to read exactly everything that happens in game and where and what time.

I like the idea of having no zones and very large dynamic events that take place in in many small places and increments to build to a giant whole at the end. This event could take days, even a week as long it continued to evolve, and then replayed when it finished. Only set its duration at an odd amount of fixed time, say 55 hours, with many variables during the events(I'll elaborate later) and do not tell the players so a wiki page would have a harder time informing anyone about what came next. Being able to immediately look up anything on a wiki removes immersion and attachment to character achievements, it does for me at least. if I have to look up the event, item or quest up, I feel less of an accomplishment after having beat it.

I do realize 55 hours is a long time and would cause much gray hair to any developer. But take Guild Wars' Queendale as an example...

You start your character in the out skirts of the city, what needs to happen? We are preparing for invasion, what does the city need? Stone, and wood to help prepare strengthen the walls and build ballista/catapults. Ok, off you go. If X ammount of stone is not recieved in Y amount of time, then Z event happens, if X stone is recieved, A event happens, if stone and wood are recieved in Y then B event happens and so forth. No two 55 hour events would be the same and they would have to be kept at a decent pace to warrant the players attention.

During their forest gathering they discover "Hey, this place I was gathering from is having problems with raiders that hamper the gathering of the items, they need help." Insert heart quest.

For me, this is the problem with Guild Wars, there is no grand scheme of things, once you are done with one area, you move on to the next until you are techinically done with the zone. Give players a reason to come back that doesn't feel like grinding. Remove the level system, that isn't needed, use skill points that require experience to gain, say 300 skill points per character class as a max. Making 10 or so classes to begin with would allow players some pretty wild custimization options.

I could literally go on forever on this topic and how to at end-game make it more of a sandbox, once the themepark rides are done.

P.S. I appologize for any grammar and spelling mistakes, still sipping my morning coffee

Originally posted by VikingGamer

Warhammer made the quest public and allowed people to jump in on the fly without grouping.

Rift made the events spawn at random locations and time and increased the complexity of the stages.

GW2 made it so what event is spawned depends on the state of the world at the time. If the centaurs control the camp then the event for centaurs attacking the camp cannot start, Instead the event for the humans taking back the camp starts. GW2 opened the door to events being reactive to the environment. It is not a huge or noticable shift but it is an important step towards making the whole experience more realistic.

Yeah, but in the end, if it doesn't feel all that different to me, it really isn't that big of a deal.

When those public quests happened with TR, now that felt different.

Originally posted by RefMinor
It didn't change everything, so the premise of your question is incorrect.

Definetly this.

1) GW2 got rid of quest hubs: Yes, it also pretty much got rid of quests too. So.... I'll take quest hubs over that. The game is at least 98% kill/gather/destroy tasks. You know, those exact things people complain about in other games but for some reason when ANet does it, it is revolutionary.

2) GW2 is B2P: Yes, they successfully tricked players into paying $60 for a F2P game. Yet again, because it was ANet, it is revolutionary and will be the future of gaming. So the future is we'll all pay $60 for a F2P when currently you get F2P games for free to start with... good improvement.

3) GW2 auto grouped everyone: Yup, and they killed all socialization by doing so. Good to know the future of gaming is an MMO where no one ever talks to each other. Sounds fun.

4) GW2 did combos!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

5) GW2 did Dynamic Events!!: Oh wait, other games already did those.

6) GW2 did WvW PvP!!: Not any different from RvR that has been done before only this time there is absolutely no point to it at all so it is boring as hell. Not a good improvement.

If we base the future of gaming off of GW2... we're f&%ked.