Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

While I am all for sandbox MMOs (long year EVE player and always returning there), what you want is not easy.

Look at EVE as an example. It had YEARS of improvement yet there are still gaps in almost all mechanics (maybe except the skill system). And you will end up with a THEMEPARK part in the game anyway just to get people started in the game. They need guidance, they need a sense of direction and growth. Any achievement in EVE feels like a 2nd job (be it PvE, PvP, market, industry ....). This is not for the common gamer.

What the themeparks do wrong at the moment is an abuse of direction control. Players have almost no freedom in the game outside the main storylines (SWTOR is a great example). And some delusional fixation on endgame. ENDGAME IN AN MMORPG !!!

Originally posted by Ghost12

 

BRING BACK SANDBOX!!! I WANT MY FREEDOM BACK!

Are you saying that you will playing and supporting DF:UW?

Because if you are not, then as far I can see you are part of the issue not the solution. For sandboxes to be made the ones here now have to be successful to prove a market.

Unless you are talking about a PvE sandbox ofc, because that hasn't been tried in literally years and I would be right with you in seeing one made to test the support.

As usual, overestimating your numbers and underestimating the difficulties of producing this type of game.  

Originally posted by Failings
I believe the sandbox formula has always been what MMOs were about. The genre was led astray by WoW's success but finally it seems we're coming out of that infernal cycle.

EQ was a sandbox?

If hyou make a game that is everything to everyone there there will be nothing for the haters to hate. That is what they live for.

Sorry, Sandbox MMO's DO NOT have a large following - cult following - yes.

I did try a Tale in the Desert - it was interesting for the first hour - then boring as sin.

Originally posted by Failings
I believe the sandbox formula has always been what MMOs were about. The genre was led astray by WoW's success but finally it seems we're coming out of that infernal cycle.

I've been thinking about that.

Its possible that WoW was a sort of necessary evil. It brought many new players into the genre. Unfortunately, these players dont really know what a sandbox is. However, I believe at this point, players are ready "for more" and ready for the genre to evolve into something more, giving players their freedoms back.

WoW was the training wheels. Now, we're ready for the real deal.

I can only foresee one way this can work.A developer would have to charge not a basic sub fee but a fee based on how much land space you want to own.This would be a win win for all,if you have little money yo ucan still have your small space,you have and want more you can have it.

Then to make sure the server is not overloaded and needing NASA to run it,they would have to incoporate some type of polycount measuring system.

So for example i want a grid of 2048x2048.I pay SOE 15 bucks a month for that.I want a 4096x4096 i pay 30 bucks a month.

The 2048 would carry a max item count of say 300 normal/static,25 animated .Example i want a tree that sways in the wind,it is one animated item used up.I want smoke coming out of chimney,there is two animated used up.I want a water sprinkler going perhaps that counts as two,one for the water and one for the apparatus.One wall for a house counts as one or maybe two static items.Portals would count towards an animated.

Then the developer could use their god forbidden cash shop to sell terrain movement,50 moves costs 5 bucks.

This is the only way i can see it working because a developer is not going to allow 10 million items on screen.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

Perhaps one day it will happen........

I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

Only 2 games worth keeping an eye on these days is Arche Age and Black Desert.

I'm partial to Black Desert as it looks more like old school UO reborn. Not all sorts of wonky mounts and fairies. Bit more gritty/realistic, with some high fantasy thrown in.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

Perhaps one day it will happen........

I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

 

I sincerely believe that anyone that expects to have WoW's number of players is just delusional. WoW was the introduction to a new style of gaming and I doubt we will see one game gather as many players as WoW has.

But who says a good sandbox cant gather 500,000?

Anything is possible. And sad fact is - the MMO industry is extremely risky. Any entreprenuer knows that an investment is always going to be risky.

The fact that standard themepark MMO's keep on underperforming tells me, as an investor, that they arent what they are cracked up to be. And I am not approaching this as a sandbox lover, I'm approaching this as an investor. As an investor, I would not invest in any themepark title as of this moment.

I think with the performance of TOR, its pretty clear.

Part of being an entrepreneur is not only examining the risks, but also taking them. Opening a business is always risky.

There are always going to be risks. But right now, I would rather fund a sandbox MMO rather than a themepark any day of the week. It makes much more sense.

Originally posted by Ghost12

There is a saying; Only a fool does the same thing over and over again and expects different results.

 

BRING BACK SANDBOX!!! I WANT MY FREEDOM BACK!

 

 

When reading the first lines of your post, I was expecting the usual bla bla bla, but I have to admit, your post was quite entertaining! Kudos for your enthusiasm! And I agree: bring back Sandbox!

Well, I do not think, the time of theme parks is over. I believe there will be a niche (xD) for theme parks too! 9 million are still playing WoW, so I do not see the fall of the theme park genre at all. And let's be honest: All those games you mentioned failed, because they were WoW clones! And if you put all your effort in a clone, make certain that it is a BETTER clone. Rift, Tera, Aion, TOR, WAR... they do not even come close to WoW. After 8 years, WoW is still the best theme park MMO around and that is the reason for it beeing the No. 1. (and it will stay the No 1 for many many many years to come).

You are missing a point here OP. Sandboxes problems is really the quality of them, if a single sandbox came out with as much work put into as Wow and GW2 things wouldnt be like they are now.

There are sandboxes coming out now and then, but they are pathically coded and really lacks the polish of the actually popular themepark games.Yeah, many themeparks do fail as well, but because the same reasons.

Yeah, I do like GW2 but not because it is a themepark but because it is a well made game. That is what people want, most of us dont care the least if a game is a sandbox or themepark. Funny enough have I never really like Wow but that doesny stop me from admitting that the game is well made.

I really hope CCP pull WoDO off though, I like the IP and MMOs needs to differ more from eachother.

But no matter how great ideas there is behind a game, a badly made game will never do well.

And I am not one of the new generation of MMOs, when UO came out I had already played MMOs for over a year (M59 was great). And UO did so well at the time because it was a well made game for the time and rather fun, not because it was a sandbox.

Besides, "sandbox" is a word that means very different things to different people, some consider Minecraft as one of the few, others think games like Skyrim are sandboxes.

All that said, player created content is fun, no doubt about that but we need well made game and focusing too much just hich type they are is a misstake, most of us gamers dont care and just want a good game.

Originally posted by Ghost12

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

Perhaps one day it will happen........

I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

 

I sincerely believe that anyone that expects to have WoW's number of players is just delusional. WoW was the introduction to a new style of gaming and I doubt we will see one game gather as many players as WoW has.

 But who says a good sandbox cant gather 500,000?

Anything is possible. And sad fact is - the MMO industry is extremely risky. Any entreprenuer knows that an investment is always going to be risky.

 The fact that standard themepark MMO's keep on underperforming tells me, as an investor, that they arent what they are cracked up to be. And I am not approaching this as a sandbox lover, I'm approaching this as an investor. As an investor, I would not invest in any themepark title as of this moment.

 I think with the performance of TOR, its pretty clear.

 Part of being an entrepreneur is not only examining the risks, but also taking them. Opening a business is always risky.

 There are always going to be risks. But right now, I would rather fund a sandbox MMO rather than a themepark any day of the week. It makes much more sense.

 

Oh, I agree with you, 500K is probably quite obtainable, but no one is going to invest 100M + in a new title to draw in that number of subs, just not worth the risk.

While perhaps no one expects a repeat of WOW's success (probably not even Blizzard) I'd venture to say most developers are shooting for at least 2M or so (based on recent SWTOR info)  and they're not seeing it in the sandbox market at this point.

Originally posted by Ghost12

Want to be a knight in shining armor? Boom.

Want to be a mercenary hunting down other players? Boom.

Want to be a dancer, entertaining tired players on the street for some coin? Boom

Want to be a leader of a player run corporation? Boom.

Want to be an architect, designing other players houses? Boom.

Want to be a thief, stealing other players' hard earned cash? Boom!

Want to become a politician, managing a player city? Boom.

But what if the person isn't skilled, creative or social enough to actually achieve those goals?

Besides... Want to be subjugated? Want to be robbed? Want to get hunted by other players? When creating your utopian game, you have to look at both sides of the player-to-player interaction.

See, it's very easy to type 'Boom' on a forum and think that actually made something so. It's another thing entirely to try to make it happen in a game world catering to a target audience that often has the most fickle interests and most nebulous wants possible.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Ghost12

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

 

Look, another MMO Moses. Please tell us more revelations oh enlightened one! We will buy whatever you're selling.

Good reference, sandbox style gamers do seem to be wandering the wilderness for 40 years trying to find their next big title.

Perhaps one day it will happen........

I think there's a market for a new sandbox style MMORPG, but I can't agree that there's any real evidence that it will accomodate "millions upon millions" served.

Unfortunately, if you are going to build a new MMORPG and ask someone to front you anywhere from $100M - 200M to create it, they're going to want some assurances that you know what you are doing and that there's evidence in the marketplace that reduces the risk of their investment.

Right now, the only real examples to follow are standard theme park MMO's so that's why we keep getting so many variants of basically the same game released back in 2004 (or even earlier if we go back to EQ1)

If a runaway hit in the sandbox space ever happens it's probably going to be a matter more of sh!t luck rather than by intelligent design.

 

I sincerely believe that anyone that expects to have WoW's number of players is just delusional. WoW was the introduction to a new style of gaming and I doubt we will see one game gather as many players as WoW has.

 But who says a good sandbox cant gather 500,000?

Anything is possible. And sad fact is - the MMO industry is extremely risky. Any entreprenuer knows that an investment is always going to be risky.

 The fact that standard themepark MMO's keep on underperforming tells me, as an investor, that they arent what they are cracked up to be. And I am not approaching this as a sandbox lover, I'm approaching this as an investor. As an investor, I would not invest in any themepark title as of this moment.

 I think with the performance of TOR, its pretty clear.

 Part of being an entrepreneur is not only examining the risks, but also taking them. Opening a business is always risky.

 There are always going to be risks. But right now, I would rather fund a sandbox MMO rather than a themepark any day of the week. It makes much more sense.

 

Oh, I agree with you, 500K is probably quite obtainable, but no one is going to invest 100M + in a new title to draw in that number of subs, just not worth the risk.

While perhaps no one expects a repeat of WOW's success (probably not even Blizzard) I'd venture to say most developers are shooting for at least 2M or so (based on recent SWTOR info)  and they're not seeing it in the sandbox market at this point.

 

But SWTOR is a disaster.

See here's the thing, if these MMOs came out with good numbers, then I would have much more faith in the themepark genre.

But from the looks of it, these themeparks are actually underperforming. How is it that such games like Runescape and Minecraft that are created in people's basements and backyards are yielding such high returns on investment, compared to these other titles?

I suspect these investors may not actually know what they are doing. We've had 8 years of evidence towards themeparks and lets face it, they have nearly all met with mediocre success with the exception of a couple games. People can throw around the  "themeparks are the standard" argument plenty, but when we look at the evidence - it doesnt really add up.

I think what its going to take is a studio that is prepared to really innovate and distinguish themselves from the competition. When you do that in business, it increases your chances of success exponentially. And I think everyone can agree on that.