While i can agree that this follows the most traditional methodology of MMO's i cant say it fits in with all of them.

TSW is the best example here.

I've been running nightmares for probubly 5 or 6 weeks now. Sure its possible to To run instances for gear. However doing so would be shooting yourself in the foot. The best gear ive gotten has come from the items i have purchased and upgraded myself. PVP works the same way for progression and both can actually be quite effective in the other aspect. Alot of these fights actually do come from being better. Successfully Impairing to interrupt, Keeping active afflictions on the boss so that your team mate may capitalize on the situation. Making sure you are running the right buffs and dont blow them with poor timing. Having a build that actually works with all the abilities so your not boosting your strike attacks but not using any. Understand where im coming from.

Thats part 1. Part 2 is the Boss fights themselves. I have run Raids in plenty of games, TSW NM runs have been while somewhat Simple, MUCH more difficult. Ask a TSW player why we entered a NM run and we wont say. There is a +5 sword in there that will make all the other fights simpler. You may hear, We are in need of Currency so that we can enhance our gear. Or you may hear and i feel this is much more Common "We havent beaten it yet"

The difference in Drops for anything above QL10 is Stat Alocation. A drop from the first Nightmare instance may have 445 Attack Rating, 130 Crit chance and 40 Crit Power where as a drop from the Last Nightmare run would have something along the lines of 445 Attack Rating, 130 Crit Power and 40 Crit rating.

Also if it is the idea of attaining Gear that is stronger or somehow different thatn your previous gear. then your in the Wrong Genre, RPG's all play this way and they all SHOULD play this way. Having a sword that acts just like a sword has its own Genre its called Hack and Slash.

OP cmon. 

Since the early days of pen and paper rpgs were founded on progression.. wtf? Yeah we played D&D and the likes for fun, but we wanted to progress our character. We wanted levels, skills, and gear.... wtf? sorry.. it's late here. 

pen and paper gave birth to mmorpgs. in case you did not know /roll, or RNG (Random Number Gernerator/tion) they come form 1d3s 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 1d12s......1d100s. Those are die, that's plural for dice just incase. 

This is like asking fellow football players "Do you think we are trained to gain yards?" 

• Tom (playing Game X):  Man, we finally UberMegaBoss.
• Jerry (playing Game Y):  Cool, what'd you get?
• Tom:  What?
• Jerry:  What'd you get for beating that boss?
• Tom:  Um, we beat the boss.  It was hard, but we finally beat him.
• Jerry:  Yeah, but what kind of loot did you get?
• Tom:  Loot?
• Jerry:  Yeah, loot?  What did you get?
• Tom:  Some gold, I guess.
• Jerry:  What?  What epics did you get?
• Tom:  Epics?
• Jerry:  Yeah, for killing the boss.  What epic loot did you get?  How are you going to beat the next boss?
• Tom:  Didn't get any loot like that.  Don't need anything like that to fight the next boss.
• Jerry:  What?
• Tom:  We just need to be better.  We need to apply what we've learned so far, work hard as a team, and with practice we'll be able to take down whatever boss we face next.
• Jerry:  But - you need loot - you need epics.  Where's the progression?
• Tom:  I just told you - we get better the more we play.
• Jerry:  I don't understand...
• Tom:  I'm seeing that....

Funny :)  but i think you mix the two characters. In the anime Tom is no match for Jerry's brains and wits, so for me it should be Tom that doesnt understand Jerry and not the opposite. :)

Originally posted by Rohn

Progression has less to do with the "MMO" part, and more to do with the "RPG" part.

Character progression of some sort is a major focus of RPGs, whether that's paper and pencil, or computer-based.

Yes, but in a good PnP RPG, progression isn't just being handed shiny things, it's improving the character, but by improving their stats and by knowing how to better utilize the character.  Of the two, the second is the most important.  In an MMO though, progression is usually so mind-numbingly simplistic, you get new armor that looks the same as your old armor, a new sword that looks the same as your old sword so you can go out and fight new, stronger enemies that look just like your old enemies.  Progression is done so badly in most MMOs, it's laughable.

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by Eir_S

And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.

Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.

Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG.  Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG.  You're now at two games.  Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame.  Not everybody does though.  So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants more action orientated combat.  Not everybody does though.  But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants a Superhero game.  Tada, you've got four Superhero games.  Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them.  Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two.  Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games.  Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there?  Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....

...sometimes we have to settle.  Or we just walk away.

I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist.  It's version #248 of 3257.  It may or may never exist.

Progression is not bad - it may inspire to grow for a long and long. Finished Ice Monk - ok, go for Fire Hunter, finished Fire Hunter - go for Slug Warrior etc etc etc...untill all 99 classes are up to top (and each class is harder and harder to master).

I think it is the MMORPG that should offer something extra - and once again, I will refer to Istaria. My toon has finished several fighting schools and several crafting schools as well. I could grind for experience, turning in trophies or power-levelling...but instead, I craft day and night, gaining no xp.

Why? Just because I do want to help other people with their plots and buildings. I craft tier 1 or tier 2 stuff, add it to structures and enjoy seing how structure appears out of scaffold. Or sometimes I just go to starting area, asking new players if they need fire support / tools / weapons. It is now and it would be when I will reach end-game (level 100 in all schools).

And please notice, I am progression fan, I do love to see how level numbers increase, be it fighting or crafting. I just saw another aspect of the game: fun without xp. I go near couple animals and cast some funny spell on them: it has no result, but just looks nice. I go to aid structures - and owner will never know it was I that helped. Or I just go to help some newbie: be it Dragon who wants more treasure for hoard or some biped in need to kill that terrible lvl.10 grulet.

In short: players should see some other "side" purpose. Istaria has plots and everyone may help other person's buildings. The world is large and there are so many buildings waiting to be completed.

Originally posted by Cephus404

Originally posted by Rohn

Progression has less to do with the "MMO" part, and more to do with the "RPG" part.

Character progression of some sort is a major focus of RPGs, whether that's paper and pencil, or computer-based.

Yes, but in a good PnP RPG, progression isn't just being handed shiny things, it's improving the character, but by improving their stats and by knowing how to better utilize the character.  Of the two, the second is the most important.  In an MMO though, progression is usually so mind-numbingly simplistic, you get new armor that looks the same as your old armor, a new sword that looks the same as your old sword so you can go out and fight new, stronger enemies that look just like your old enemies.  Progression is done so badly in most MMOs, it's laughable.

It's the meatier mob with a beefier bat mentality.  I think STO does it the worst because of their replayablity of missions.  You can literally fight level 50 versions of the level 1 mobs.  I mean - the stats are boosted of course - but it's the same mob...same look, same name, etc...just meatier and beefier.

Many games will at least change the model and the name, but in the end - it's still the meatier mob with the beefier bat.  That level 100 boss that rules a kingdom is no smarter than the level 10 boss that sleeps in a tent in a cave.  There are as many "guys" defending the tent guy as the kingdom guy.  They just have more health and do more damage.  Meh...

Originally posted by Cephus404

Yes, but in a good PnP RPG, progression isn't just being handed shiny things, it's improving the character, but by improving their stats and by knowing how to better utilize the character.  Of the two, the second is the most important.  In an MMO though, progression is usually so mind-numbingly simplistic, you get new armor that looks the same as your old armor, a new sword that looks the same as your old sword so you can go out and fight new, stronger enemies that look just like your old enemies.  Progression is done so badly in most MMOs, it's laughable.

Dont forget that modern mmo ( i dont dare put the rpg) are not for rpg fans, they are for fast action solo gamers now. Thy why we dont have real character progression and the long journey who come with it.

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by Eir_S

And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.

Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.

Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG.  Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG.  You're now at two games.  Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame.  Not everybody does though.  So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants more action orientated combat.  Not everybody does though.  But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants a Superhero game.  Tada, you've got four Superhero games.  Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them.  Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two.  Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games.  Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there?  Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....

...sometimes we have to settle.  Or we just walk away.

I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist.  It's version #248 of 3257.  It may or may never exist.

You are mixing things here. I dont talk about themes, fantasy or sci-fi has nothing to do about the fact that all major mmo have the same kind of progression. Solo fast and easy.

Fast action combat or slow tab targeting doesnt matter to me, if the game offers me some real character progression, with a lots of thing to do and yeah i want time sink features.

In FFXI i used to do fishing for hours to get money or cook to get my kebab. I was breeding chocobos to get one with a different colors than yellow. I could spent days playing without going get some lvl.

After month of playing my highest job level was 43. I did played more than 4 hours a days. I didnt even scrath the surface.

I cant do this in modern mmo. After somes weeks all the maps are reveal, you are max lvl and you grind gears...or i heard now it's cosmetics o well. Game over i think.

Someone outside of the gaming generation would look at us and ask, "Are these guys are being trained to be happy playing games instead of real life?" 

No one is being trained to do anything, people simply do things that stimulate the brain, releasing the chemicals that make you feel satisfied (can't remember the name) when someone becomes "addicted" to a style or specific action that satisfies them it's hard and sometimes impossible to become satisfied any other way. We're not being "trained", its just natural. Unfortunately.

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by Eir_S

And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.

Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.

Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG.  Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG.  You're now at two games.  Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame.  Not everybody does though.  So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants more action orientated combat.  Not everybody does though.  But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants a Superhero game.  Tada, you've got four Superhero games.  Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them.  Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two.  Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games.  Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there?  Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....

...sometimes we have to settle.  Or we just walk away.

I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist.  It's version #248 of 3257.  It may or may never exist.

You are mixing things here. I dont talk about themes, fantasy or sci-fi has nothing to do about the fact that all major mmo have the same kind of progression. Solo fast and easy.

Fast action combat or slow tab targeting doesnt matter to me, if the game offers me some real character progression, with a lots of thing to do and yeah i want time sink features.

In FFXI i used to do fishing for hours to get money or cook to get my kebab. I was breeding chocobos to get one with a different colors than yellow. I could spent days playing without going get some lvl.

After month of playing my highest job level was 43. I did played more than 4 hours a days. I didnt even scrath the surface.

I cant do this in modern mmo. After somes weeks all the maps are reveal, you are max lvl and you grind gears...or i heard now it's cosmetics o well. Game over i think.

It's not a mixing thing.  I was just looking beyond you.  You're an example though - you're looking for version #26 of 3257.  You want a game with a certain set of features.  There is going to be somebody else that wants something else.  There are going to be people where the theme matters - so again - there would need to be countless games to handle everything that everybody wants.

So we generally have to compromise, we have to settle, or we have to walk away.

Maybe Game X has 60% of what you want - which is more than Game Y or Game Z.  So you play Game X, but you're never really happy with Game X.  Perhaps Game R once did it for you, but that was ten years ago and Game R still looks like a ten year old game.  You want Game U, which is Game R with an updated graphics engine - but that's mostly Game R still.  Odds are though, that Game U is not going to exist.

It's a case not of looking for the best game...but the best game.  Not the perfect game, but the game that comes closest.

Folks tend to get pretty pissy when they hear about a new game, focus on what they think it might include, get hyped about certain features...only to find out that those features are a small part of the game.  It's more painful than not having any games having some of the features you want.

It's like telling somebody - hey, I've got a great piece of cake here - want a piece?  You say sure and as you reach for it, they hit you with a baseball bat.  You exclaim WTF!?!?!?  They say that each piece of cake comes with a free whack of a baseball bat to the head.  Then on top of that, you have to finish the cake (including getting hit with the baseball bat) - for the chance of getting a glass that may or may not have some milk in it.  That's how MMOs feel to me these days.

But oddly enough, I feel worse about single player games...meh, sometimes I wish I had kept my old computers as well as my old games.  Sure, the graphics might look like Hell compared to what we have today - but nobody's going to make those games with today's graphics.  I'd rather have to deal with the crappy graphics for games that I can enjoy hours on end... than to continue risking reaching for that piece of cake only to get hit by a baseball bat.

Originally posted by Kilrain

Someone outside of the gaming generation would look at us and ask, "Are these guys are being trained to be happy playing games instead of real life?" 

 

No one is being trained to do anything, people simply do things that stimulate the brain, releasing the chemicals that make you feel satisfied (can't remember the name) when someone becomes "addicted" to a style or specific action that satisfies them it's hard and sometimes impossible to become satisfied any other way. We're not being "trained", its just natural. Unfortunately.

You know, you actually make a great case for why folks are trained rather than they are not trained.  I mean, you've basically described a Pavlovian response for the release of Serotonin and Dopamine with the understanding of the tolerance issues involved in the addiction.

So while one can make the case that the underlying process is natural, one cannot make that same case for the overall events that have transpired - it completely ignores the artificial means by which we've reached this point.

The drug dealer and drug addict analogy comes to mind.  Some people in MMOs...well, they had a low tolerance.  So they needed it bigger and they needed it faster.  Then bigger.  Then faster.

The developers know this - they're not stupid.  They've looked around at how things are changing overall.  They're furthering the process instead of fighting against it...it's a way for them to make money.  Hell, it's one of the reasons that F2P makes so much money - working off of that same addiction.

Some people are being trained...in the sense they're being taught that in order to get that good feeling - bigger and faster, they need to follow a certain path...

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by Eir_S

And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.

Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.

Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG.  Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG.  You're now at two games.  Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame.  Not everybody does though.  So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants more action orientated combat.  Not everybody does though.  But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants a Superhero game.  Tada, you've got four Superhero games.  Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them.  Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two.  Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games.  Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there?  Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....

...sometimes we have to settle.  Or we just walk away.

I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist.  It's version #248 of 3257.  It may or may never exist.

You are mixing things here. I dont talk about themes, fantasy or sci-fi has nothing to do about the fact that all major mmo have the same kind of progression. Solo fast and easy.

Fast action combat or slow tab targeting doesnt matter to me, if the game offers me some real character progression, with a lots of thing to do and yeah i want time sink features.

In FFXI i used to do fishing for hours to get money or cook to get my kebab. I was breeding chocobos to get one with a different colors than yellow. I could spent days playing without going get some lvl.

After month of playing my highest job level was 43. I did played more than 4 hours a days. I didnt even scrath the surface.

I cant do this in modern mmo. After somes weeks all the maps are reveal, you are max lvl and you grind gears...or i heard now it's cosmetics o well. Game over i think.

It's not a mixing thing.  I was just looking beyond you.  You're an example though - you're looking for version #26 of 3257.  You want a game with a certain set of features.  There is going to be somebody else that wants something else.  There are going to be people where the theme matters - so again - there would need to be countless games to handle everything that everybody wants.

So we generally have to compromise, we have to settle, or we have to walk away.

Maybe Game X has 60% of what you want - which is more than Game Y or Game Z.  So you play Game X, but you're never really happy with Game X.  Perhaps Game R once did it for you, but that was ten years ago and Game R still looks like a ten year old game.  You want Game U, which is Game R with an updated graphics engine - but that's mostly Game R still.  Odds are though, that Game U is not going to exist.

It's a case not of looking for the best game...but the best game.  Not the perfect game, but the game that comes closest.

Folks tend to get pretty pissy when they hear about a new game, focus on what they think it might include, get hyped about certain features...only to find out that those features are a small part of the game.  It's more painful than not having any games having some of the features you want.

It's like telling somebody - hey, I've got a great piece of cake here - want a piece?  You say sure and as you reach for it, they hit you with a baseball bat.  You exclaim WTF!?!?!?  They say that each piece of cake comes with a free whack of a baseball bat to the head.  Then on top of that, you have to finish the cake (including getting hit with the baseball bat) - for the chance of getting a glass that may or may not have some milk in it.  That's how MMOs feel to me these days.

But oddly enough, I feel worse about single player games...meh, sometimes I wish I had kept my old computers as well as my old games.  Sure, the graphics might look like Hell compared to what we have today - but nobody's going to make those games with today's graphics.  I'd rather have to deal with the crappy graphics for games that I can enjoy hours on end... than to continue risking reaching for that piece of cake only to get hit by a baseball bat.

You know you write all this text to say almost nothing, all you do is to shift the discussion so the real subject here is lost.

First let rewind to the begin, you said in a earlier reply '' People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't'' and i replyed to you that (in short) all modern mmo offer the same things this is why im not happy.

And you you reply with all this mumbo jumbo who mean nothing about game X and game B, that im looking for version 245 or whatever.. Seriously where do you want to go with this?

I think i was clear enough about my opinion on the real subject of this thread. Now i dont think this discution is going no where.

Why bother with 99% of your thread when you could of just wrote: how can we force the MMO community to like GW2 because i like it.

You can't.

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by VirusDancer

Originally posted by Silok

Originally posted by Eir_S

And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.

Which is where it gets into the "Doubling Plus Factor" - so to speak, and makes it pretty tough on devs.

Say you start off with a standard Fantasy MMORPG.  Somebody wants a Sci-Fi MMORPG.  You're now at two games.  Somebody wants faster leveling and more focus on endgame.  Not everybody does though.  So now you have two Fantasy games and two Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants more action orientated combat.  Not everybody does though.  But still, now you're at four Fantasy games and four Sci-Fi games.  Somebody wants a Superhero game.  Tada, you've got four Superhero games.  Somebody wants another genre, bam - four of them.  Then you get into features that folks want and others do not want - BAM - for each game, you've got two.  Somebody wants dungeon finder - somebody doesn't - you're at 8 Fantasy, 8 Sci-Fi, and 8 Superhero games.  Somebody wants Post Apocalyptic - bam - wait, Post Apocalyptic means different things... who knows how many games you'll end up with there?  Heh, throw in Sandbox versions of those games and....

...sometimes we have to settle.  Or we just walk away.

I believe it's one of the reasons that so many folks are always looking for the next game - they're looking for the game that does not exist.  It's version #248 of 3257.  It may or may never exist.

You are mixing things here. I dont talk about themes, fantasy or sci-fi has nothing to do about the fact that all major mmo have the same kind of progression. Solo fast and easy.

Fast action combat or slow tab targeting doesnt matter to me, if the game offers me some real character progression, with a lots of thing to do and yeah i want time sink features.

In FFXI i used to do fishing for hours to get money or cook to get my kebab. I was breeding chocobos to get one with a different colors than yellow. I could spent days playing without going get some lvl.

After month of playing my highest job level was 43. I did played more than 4 hours a days. I didnt even scrath the surface.

I cant do this in modern mmo. After somes weeks all the maps are reveal, you are max lvl and you grind gears...or i heard now it's cosmetics o well. Game over i think.

It's not a mixing thing.  I was just looking beyond you.  You're an example though - you're looking for version #26 of 3257.  You want a game with a certain set of features.  There is going to be somebody else that wants something else.  There are going to be people where the theme matters - so again - there would need to be countless games to handle everything that everybody wants.

So we generally have to compromise, we have to settle, or we have to walk away.

Maybe Game X has 60% of what you want - which is more than Game Y or Game Z.  So you play Game X, but you're never really happy with Game X.  Perhaps Game R once did it for you, but that was ten years ago and Game R still looks like a ten year old game.  You want Game U, which is Game R with an updated graphics engine - but that's mostly Game R still.  Odds are though, that Game U is not going to exist.

It's a case not of looking for the best game...but the best game.  Not the perfect game, but the game that comes closest.

Folks tend to get pretty pissy when they hear about a new game, focus on what they think it might include, get hyped about certain features...only to find out that those features are a small part of the game.  It's more painful than not having any games having some of the features you want.

It's like telling somebody - hey, I've got a great piece of cake here - want a piece?  You say sure and as you reach for it, they hit you with a baseball bat.  You exclaim WTF!?!?!?  They say that each piece of cake comes with a free whack of a baseball bat to the head.  Then on top of that, you have to finish the cake (including getting hit with the baseball bat) - for the chance of getting a glass that may or may not have some milk in it.  That's how MMOs feel to me these days.

But oddly enough, I feel worse about single player games...meh, sometimes I wish I had kept my old computers as well as my old games.  Sure, the graphics might look like Hell compared to what we have today - but nobody's going to make those games with today's graphics.  I'd rather have to deal with the crappy graphics for games that I can enjoy hours on end... than to continue risking reaching for that piece of cake only to get hit by a baseball bat.

You know you write all this text to say almost nothing, all you do is to shift the discussion so the real subject here is lost.

First let rewind to the begin, you said in a earlier reply '' People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't'' and i replyed to you that (in short) all modern mmo offer the same things this is why im not happy.

And you you reply with all this mumbo jumbo who mean nothing about game X and game B, that im looking for version 245 or whatever.. Seriously where do you want to go with this?

I think i was clear enough about my opinion on the real subject of this thread. Now i dont think this discution is going no where.

Um, I did not say "People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't"

Since you cannot even follow who said what, I honestly am not suprised that you cannot follow what I've bene saying.  Even though it's the simplest thing to grasp... not everybody wants the same thing.  You're obviously not happy with where the majority of the games have gone.  In order for those games to appeal to you, they would need to create an additional copy of the game - tada, doubling.  Two people want different things, then you need two different games.  You add a third person that might want some of what the first does and some of what the second does, you're looking at a third game - tada, doubling plus.

That you could point out where certain games are a certain  and then say you want something else...without being able to comprehend that it would require two games to satisfy both yourself and those that like it the way it is...is mind boggling.

It's very unlikely that there's going to be a perfect game for anybody - people go with what come's the closest.  If there's nothing close enough, then they will take a break from the genre.  While McDonald's might not be a person's first choice for chicken, if it's on the way home and the chicken place is out of the way - they may just make that compromise.  Now if they're looking to get a steak, mashed potatoes, and a beer - they're likely to go somewhere else.

How can you not get that?

Originally posted by Sylvarii

Why bother with 99% of your thread when you could of just wrote: how can we force the MMO community to like GW2 because i like it.

 

You can't.

It might be a matter of perspective, but I felt the OP was asking more on how to get folks not to complain about it - than about liking it.  The OP found something they like...and there are folks complaining about it - trying to change it.  I saw it as a defensive post rather than a marketing post.

@OP

I have not read the entire thread but i got this to say..

Progression should be part of the fun, it always has been for me.

In all the MMORPGs I have played even Darkfall I have enjoyed my character progression infact i would say character progression is one of my favourite things about MMORPGs... tho less so with recent themepark games as characte progression is way too fast..

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Originally posted by ViperHoundz
Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

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Lets take a step back, If you played and enjoyed Rpg's prior to switching to mmorpgs then you would appreciate how much progression and stat building is staple.

However, It's my belief that most people that want 'fun casual games' didn't, or don't like rpg's in the first place.

The OP talks like their is no progression in GW2 lol,like the game is all about just having fun and not worrying about better items/armour.

So OP are you telling me that you are still running around in your level 1 armour not caring about getting better stats because you are having to much fun.Are you telling me that you would play GW2 even if it gave you no rewards or better items as you progress.

GW2 is like any other MMO,it's a tredmill of proggression to get better shinny items,have you even reach level 80 lol.

You like GW2 and bully for you but don't assume that anyone who dosent share your views is not having fun.

Why are they seperate?  Progression for me is enjoyment.

To use a real world analogy:  I could stay home and enjoy myself all day by playing games, kicking back and relaxing.  But there comes a time when it gets dull, sooner rather than later. If I'm constantly out developing and changing then life is always exciting, despite any hardships.  Same plays out, to an extent, with MMOs (for me at least).

GW2 doesn't have an illusion of any meaningful progression what so ever to me, therefore, imo it's worthless.

Ah needz mah progressions in RPGs, otherwise... you just got the same thing as an FPS.  And FPSs are always more fun than a tab targeting MMO.