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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Are MMO players trained to play for progression...

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  ViperHoundz

Novice Member

Joined: 6/29/10
Posts: 46

I > You

 
OP  9/26/12 10:54:19 PM#1

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Are-MMO-players-trained-to-play-for-progression 

 

 

Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

Subscription MMOs have, over the years, used inflating gear rewards to keep players in the game, because progression is exciting. There’s no denying that, I think everyone likes seeing their character get stronger.

However, I think in recent years we’ve come to a point where we see a growing number of people who play solely for the purpose of seeing their progression. Once they have the strongest gear with the prettiest text color or whatever, many of them simply stop playing until there’s even stronger gear to progress towards again. We all know players like this.

I question if these players even like the game they play as opposed to the feeling of getting something newer and shinier.

And why I bring this question up, is because I also question whether or not this kind of player is worth attempting to retain in the GW2 community as they are.

I would hate to see hard work on the part of the developer go into content that only a small fraction of the community will do, and even then only for about a week until they’ve progressed past it and go back to complaining.

To answer my own question in the title bar, I think the modern MMO player is trained to play games they don’t enjoy as long as there’s progression. So here’s another question: how do either the developers—or us as a community—break players of this mindset, and remind them that, well, gameplay can actually be enjoyed on its own? That exploring and playing the game IS doing content, even if there’s no gear progression? How do we make these players get it about Guild Wars 2?

Or can we at all?

 

Pretty good topic going on in the GW2 forums. I tend to agree with him.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/26/12 11:20:21 PM#2
They're trained for progression...but long before they ever sit down at their first computer.

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  Aelious

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2260

World > Quest Progression

9/26/12 11:30:47 PM#3
An analogy came to me just reading the title.

Pudding can be eaten with a spoon or a fork. If you ate pudding with a fork your whole life why would you suddenly switch to a spoon if a fork still works just fine?

Mmmm pudding...
  User Deleted
9/26/12 11:35:18 PM#4

Progression in those terms is a fact of life. You grow, you learn, you aspire to new, better things and ideas.

I guress there's also people who sit on the couch all day and watch TV and I suppose they need a game to play as well.

It's nice that the MMO market caters to everyone now that we have GW2.

Oh my, I do make a good point, even if I do say so myself ;)

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/26/12 11:40:30 PM#5
Originally posted by nsignific

Progression in those terms is a fact of life. You grow, you learn, you aspire to new, better things and ideas.

I guress there's also people who sit on the couch all day and watch TV and I suppose they need a game to play as well.

It's nice that the MMO market caters to everyone now that we have GW2.

Oh my, I do make a good point, even if I do say so myself ;)

Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny.  I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  User Deleted
9/26/12 11:49:37 PM#6
Originally posted by VirusDancer

Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny.  I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...

That would be people who fall prey to marketing. Apple is amazing at getting their customers to promote their products - unlike an MMO being promoted furiously by members of this site... :P

Man, it's OK, casuals have a place in this world, who am I to deny you fun - and why would I want to? Some like a challenge in everything we do, be it life or something much less important - video games.

I'm just the kind of person who likes the competitive aspec - if I'm playing sports and the other person(s) say let's just play for fun and not keep score I usually get the urge to walk away and do something more interesting (but don't because I'm way too polite).

  Eir_S

Elite Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4527

GW2 socialist.

9/26/12 11:51:06 PM#7
Originally posted by nsignific

Progression in those terms is a fact of life. You grow, you learn, you aspire to new, better things and ideas.

I guress there's also people who sit on the couch all day and watch TV and I suppose they need a game to play as well.

It's nice that the MMO market caters to everyone now that we have GW2.

Oh my, I do make a good point, even if I do say so myself ;)

What's your point exactly?  That people who play GW2 are couch potatoes and people who play WoW aren't?  I wish you the sincerest luck making that one stick.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/26/12 11:58:25 PM#8
Originally posted by nsignific
Originally posted by VirusDancer

Yes, there are people that know what's important in life and those that stand in line waiting for a new iPhone... yep, life is full of those examples of people chasing the shiny.  I'm not sure I'd say they're actually aspiring to anything though...

That would be people who fall prey to marketing. Apple is amazing at getting their customers to promote their products - unlike an MMO being promoted furiously by members of this site... :P

Man, it's OK, casuals have a place in this world, who am I to deny you fun - and why would I want to? Some like a challenge in everything we do, be it life or something much less important - video games.

I'm just the kind of person who likes the competitive aspec - if I'm playing sports and the other person(s) say let's just play for fun and not keep score I usually get the urge to walk away and do something more interesting (but don't because I'm way too polite).

If you like a competitive aspect, why do you champion the equivalent of getting a shiny star because you managed to tie your shoes each day last week?

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  User Deleted
9/27/12 12:04:38 AM#9
Originally posted by Eir_S

What's your point exactly?  That people who play GW2 are couch potatoes and people who play WoW aren't?  I wish you the sincerest luck making that one stick.

I'm sorry, this is embarrasing, but I thought the good members of mmorpg.com read the posts they're responding to?

My point was in response to a post presenting progression as a bad thing, as something to be ridiculed if observed as trait in other people.

My point was to point out how untrue that is by presenting you with the opposite - the lack of aspiration to grow and progress.

If you find yourself in that, as you must, if you promote progressions as a negative, then that's on you. Irony is sometimes hard, I know.

  User Deleted
9/27/12 12:06:34 AM#10
Originally posted by VirusDancer

If you like a competitive aspect, why do you champion the equivalent of getting a shiny star because you managed to tie your shoes each day last week?

Maybe "other games" have more to them then just "shiny stars", for example arena ladder systems? I know, it's much easier to latch on to your favourite peeve and argue that point, but you know, er... You can't.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/27/12 12:06:39 AM#11

An Analogy - Real World Coloring Books vs. MMO Progression Coloring Books

Real World Coloring Books

You're given the complete box of crayons.  You're given a simple picture to color.  Then you're given a more difficult picture to color.  The pictures increase increase in difficulty to color - they become more intricate.

MMO Progression Coloring Books

You're given one crayon and a simple picture.  When you complete that picture, you might get a random second crayon.  Say you started with a Red crayon.  For the second picture, not much more difficult than the first picture - you need a Green crayon.  You have to keep coloring the first picture until you get that Green crayon.  Then you can do the second picture.  Yay!

Yeah, I'm thinking I'd rather go with the first...

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  User Deleted
9/27/12 12:08:15 AM#12

I'm tired of completely owning your faces here, so I'm leaving

 

  Rayshe

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1291

9/27/12 12:09:21 AM#13

It also depends on what you enjoy, Personally i greatly enjoy beating challenges. The promise of Challenging Content drew me back to WoW when cataclysm came out. Which i will admit was challengeing until the general Fanbase cried about the encounters being too difficult. i also gotta admit its probubly the reason why i love TSW so much. I've only really seen maybe 2 DPS checks per NM run. and i have seen some fights that feel soo impossible you just feel great after completing them. Is this consitered Progression, Yes it is. By the time i manage to finish Slaughterhouse on NM difficulty. Tokyo will probubly have been released.

 

What it comes down to is what you enjoy. Instant Gratification or The slow growth and defeat of challenges. of course there are others however i will not go into a multiple page long forum post.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Johnie-Marz

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/09
Posts: 857

9/27/12 12:10:55 AM#14

Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.

The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.

EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.

  Eir_S

Elite Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4527

GW2 socialist.

9/27/12 12:14:57 AM#15
Originally posted by nsignific
Originally posted by Eir_S

What's your point exactly?  That people who play GW2 are couch potatoes and people who play WoW aren't?  I wish you the sincerest luck making that one stick.

I'm sorry, this is embarrasing, but I thought the good members of mmorpg.com read the posts they're responding to?

My point was in response to a post presenting progression as a bad thing, as something to be ridiculed if observed as trait in other people.

My point was to point out how untrue that is by presenting you with the opposite - the lack of aspiration to grow and progress.

If you find yourself in that, as you must, if you promote progressions as a negative, then that's on you. Irony is sometimes hard, I know.

And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/27/12 12:23:11 AM#16
Originally posted by nsignific
Originally posted by VirusDancer

If you like a competitive aspect, why do you champion the equivalent of getting a shiny star because you managed to tie your shoes each day last week?

Maybe "other games" have more to them then just "shiny stars", for example arena ladder systems? I know, it's much easier to latch on to your favourite peeve and argue that point, but you know, er... You can't.

Hrmm....

Originally posted by nsignific

I'm sorry, this is embarrasing, but I thought the good members of mmorpg.com read the posts they're responding to?

...then that would explain your missing the point.

The OP stated...

Originally posted by ViperHoundz

I question if these players even like the game they play as opposed to the feeling of getting something newer and shinier.

...so I guess...

Originally posted by nsignific

 I'm leaving

...is for the best.

 

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  Silok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 741

9/27/12 12:32:56 AM#17
Originally posted by ViperHoundz

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/gw2/Are-MMO-players-trained-to-play-for-progression 

 

 

Are MMO players trained to play for progression rather than for enjoyment?

For me progression is enjoyment, im not talking only about gear progression but leveling too. Yeah i like starting a game and look like a weakling farmer and i like doind the journey and being challenged to get stronger and look more like a warior. What i dont like is that modern mmo have shape the challenging and long journey i want into a parc walk.

Subscription MMOs have, over the years, used inflating gear rewards to keep players in the game, because progression is exciting. There’s no denying that, I think everyone likes seeing their character get stronger.

However, I think in recent years we’ve come to a point where we see a growing number of people who play solely for the purpose of seeing their progression. Once they have the strongest gear with the prettiest text color or whatever, many of them simply stop playing until there’s even stronger gear to progress towards again. We all know players like this.

There you see i dont agree with you, a lot of these people stop playing because they have nothing more to do and for me the reason is not because there is not enough content but because the content is too easy and the leveling is too fast.

Now many people will say stop rushing and smell the roses, i agree with you but playing a lots doesnt mean rushing, power leveling is rushing and not everyone do that. If i play a lots that because i enjoying myself. I will not restrain myself playing only 1 hours a days so the game can last longer.

There are a lots of people like me who dont rush but still we have more time to play so i play, i smell the roses but still in almost all modern mmo i will get to max lvl in less than 1 month. Playing more than 4+ hours a day is not rushing is just playing more.

I question if these players even like the game they play as opposed to the feeling of getting something newer and shinier.

I dont play what i dont like but i play game i like and i do like getting new gears. Where do i stand in your analogy?

And why I bring this question up, is because I also question whether or not this kind of player is worth attempting to retain in the GW2 community as they are.

I dont care about that. Why would you try to retain players who want to leave?

I would hate to see hard work on the part of the developer go into content that only a small fraction of the community will do, and even then only for about a week until they’ve progressed past it and go back to complaining.

Devs are there to create game and contents this is there jobs and they are paid for it. I dont know why you hate it if they do more content. Not everyones leave after a week.

To answer my own question in the title bar, I think the modern MMO player is trained to play games they don’t enjoy as long as there’s progression. So here’s another question: how do either the developers—or us as a community—break players of this mindset, and remind them that, well, gameplay can actually be enjoyed on its own? That exploring and playing the game IS doing content, even if there’s no gear progression? How do we make these players get it about Guild Wars 2?

You should not put all mmo gamers in the same basket, i dont play mmo i dont enjoy, progression or not.

Yes exploring is doing content and i like exploring but when i have finish doing this and feel i have seen enough, what should i do? Forcing myself playing? I dont think so. Im not talking about GW2 here im talking about mmo in general.

 

Or can we at all?

Why would you care? if you like the game play it and dont mind who dont. Again im saying this for any games not just GW2.

mmo these days are not built for people who play many hours a days, they are built for casual. That why game like GW2 can be good for casual players. First because it's fun and well-made and there is no sub but this is not for the long run. The problem is there is no modern mmo for the hardcore crowd, so they move from mmo to mmo with the hope it will be for them.

Pretty good topic going on in the GW2 forums. I tend to agree with him.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/27/12 12:34:29 AM#18
Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

Being "Trained" for progression isn't the problem.

The problem is leveling in games has become so fast that you have way too much time between max level and the next expansion. The game has to give players something to do which leads to gear progression.

EVE is probably the only game that does it right. Even if you played for ten years you still wouldn't max out your skills. You are always progressing so you just play the game.

And this is basically the difference between character/player progression and gear progression.  Unfortunately, it appears the masses want the new shiny items rather than any actual progression.

It's like the following - if I may...

  • Tom (playing Game X):  Man, we finally UberMegaBoss.
  • Jerry (playing Game Y):  Cool, what'd you get?
  • Tom:  What?
  • Jerry:  What'd you get for beating that boss?
  • Tom:  Um, we beat the boss.  It was hard, but we finally beat him.
  • Jerry:  Yeah, but what kind of loot did you get?
  • Tom:  Loot?
  • Jerry:  Yeah, loot?  What did you get?
  • Tom:  Some gold, I guess.
  • Jerry:  What?  What epics did you get?
  • Tom:  Epics?
  • Jerry:  Yeah, for killing the boss.  What epic loot did you get?  How are you going to beat the next boss?
  • Tom:  Didn't get any loot like that.  Don't need anything like that to fight the next boss.
  • Jerry:  What?
  • Tom:  We just need to be better.  We need to apply what we've learned so far, work hard as a team, and with practice we'll be able to take down whatever boss we face next.
  • Jerry:  But - you need loot - you need epics.  Where's the progression?
  • Tom:  I just told you - we get better the more we play.
  • Jerry:  I don't understand...
  • Tom:  I'm seeing that....
It's like the threads where folks have had issues with the lack of the Trinity in a few recent games - the lack of gear progression would blow their minds...meh.
 
I still think CCP should have made a "Fantasy" EVE as well... in the past, I've called it Shadowbane 2.0... but oh well.

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  Rohn

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3718

9/27/12 12:39:15 AM#19

Progression has less to do with the "MMO" part, and more to do with the "RPG" part.

Character progression of some sort is a major focus of RPGs, whether that's paper and pencil, or computer-based.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  Silok

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/22/06
Posts: 741

9/27/12 12:42:34 AM#20
Originally posted by Eir_S

And I thought the good members didn't try assuming something that isn't even in the post they read.  Progression isn't a "negative", neither is playing a game for fun.  People should be happy that there are multiple types of MMOs to play now, but as you can see, they aren't.  Unlike fans of most genres (excluding FPS titles), many MMO players seem to think that if you can't enjoy one MMO as much as another, then it fails.

As an aside, it's all relative to the person in question.  I knew people in WoW who had every piece of leet gear possible but didn't do a damn thing in real life but sit there.  It doesn't mean they have some desire to better themselves, it's because it's a video game and it's easy compared to moving their ass.

You see this is exactly the opposite, all major mmo these days are for the solo, fast and easy crownd, leveling became easier than ever, the journey is fast and not very challenging. Anyone can have anything without taking the time to get it. But where are the games for those who like a long and hard journey? There is none execpt the old ones.

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