The hate on Tab Targeting is like the hate on The Trinity. Gamers are at the "been there, done that," stage.

Think of it like a back up quarterback. Everyone loves the back up quarterback, "until they get into the game an through three interceptions."

Since Tab Targeting and The Trinity are the standard, players are now looking at what's sitting on the bench. 

Of course after playing a game without the trinity for a year, I am sure many players will be itching to play a Tank or a Healer; you know, put the starting quarterback into the game again. I am sure it will probably be the same with tab targeting.

But there is nothing wrong with a game trying it in order to give players variety from what is currently out there.

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

The hate on Tab Targeting is like the hate on The Trinity. Gamers are at the "been there, done that," stage.

Think of it like a back up quarterback. Everyone loves the back up quarterback, "until they get into the game an through three interceptions."

Since Tab Targeting and The Trinity are the standard, players are now looking at what's sitting on the bench. 

Of course after playing a game without the trinity for a year, I am sure many players will be itching to play a Tank or a Healer; you know, put the starting quarterback into the game again. I am sure it will probably be the same with tab targeting.

But there is nothing wrong with a game trying it in order to give players variety from what is currently out there.

 my starting QB is no trinity, skill based sandbox games.....im still waiting for my starting QB to get back in the game because the backups are ruining my season.

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Originally posted by Johnie-Marz The hate on Tab Targeting is like the hate on The Trinity. Gamers are at the "been there, done that," stage. Think of it like a back up quarterback. Everyone loves the back up quarterback, "until they get into the game an through three interceptions." Since Tab Targeting and The Trinity are the standard, players are now looking at what's sitting on the bench.  Of course after playing a game without the trinity for a year, I am sure many players will be itching to play a Tank or a Healer; you know, put the starting quarterback into the game again. I am sure it will probably be the same with tab targeting. But there is nothing wrong with a game trying it in order to give players variety from what is currently out there.

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I can buy that, but I think that the format of the game qualifies a "WoW clone" more than anything. I mean look at TERA, I would consider that a WoW clone just based one everything else about that game. The combat is just one facet.

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Vorthanion
It's a result of the console  / first person shooter gamers pouring into the MMO market. 

I'd say its more a result of people getting tired that no one is doing anything different. Tab targetting existed because of technical limitations. Now we're at an age where even many indie MMOs have full real time twitch combat, yet the same tired old WoW clones stick to the tired tab targetting shallow combat formula.

Sorry but adding a targetting reticle does not make the game different.  TERA proved that nicely.

There's nothing wrong with tab targetting.  I think there's too many players in the wrong genre.

This^

Originally posted by DrunkWolf

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

The hate on Tab Targeting is like the hate on The Trinity. Gamers are at the "been there, done that," stage.

Think of it like a back up quarterback. Everyone loves the back up quarterback, "until they get into the game an through three interceptions."

Since Tab Targeting and The Trinity are the standard, players are now looking at what's sitting on the bench. 

Of course after playing a game without the trinity for a year, I am sure many players will be itching to play a Tank or a Healer; you know, put the starting quarterback into the game again. I am sure it will probably be the same with tab targeting.

But there is nothing wrong with a game trying it in order to give players variety from what is currently out there.

 my starting QB is no trinity, skill based sandbox games.....im still waiting for my starting QB to get back in the game because the backups are ruining my season.

Thats funny, and a good point. You might try Fallen Earth, "Two out of three aint bad"

Quite honestly, I think the whole "skill" argument is silly.

A game with targeting (I won't say "tab-" because that implies random target selection) can take just as much skill to master as a twitch combat oriented one.

It's just a different type of skill.

Anyone who has played games like DAoC knows that it required much more strategy and thinking in combat than any of the modern twitch games, which are based more on reflexes and coordination. Especially in PvP. Many twitch players don't even know what things like peeling, positioning, interrupter, pre-kiting, over-extending, etc. mean when they bash  targeting based systems.

I am not saying one or the other is better, just saying both require skill in different ways and labeling one as "requiring no skill" is silly and just shows you are ignorant.

It's all about how these things are implemented. Both can be fun, both can be horrible.

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by dave6660

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Vorthanion
It's a result of the console  / first person shooter gamers pouring into the MMO market. 

I'd say its more a result of people getting tired that no one is doing anything different. Tab targetting existed because of technical limitations. Now we're at an age where even many indie MMOs have full real time twitch combat, yet the same tired old WoW clones stick to the tired tab targetting shallow combat formula.

Sorry but adding a targetting reticle does not make the game different.  TERA proved that nicely.

There's nothing wrong with tab targetting.  I think there's too many players in the wrong genre.

This genre is not built on tab targeting. And the majority of people praised TERA's combat. It was the rest of the game that was an uninspired WoW knock off.

The point is, tab targeting is one of those tell tale signs that a game is going to be a WoW clone that doesn't dare to try anything different.

 

Very few MMOs do anything new with tab targetting.

Eve Online uses a targetting system.  That's about as far from WoW as you can imagine.

The way you target or lock an enemy is a tiny part of the overall game.  RPG's need to take some emphasis off combat.  There's so much more that could be done.

Originally posted by dave6660

Eve Online uses a targetting system.  That's about as far from WoW as you can imagine.

The way you target or lock an enemy is a tiny part of the overall game.  RPG's need to take some emphasis off combat.  There's so much more that could be done.

This is part of the issue, no doubt.  There's two distinct things going on - objectively, neither one is better (subjectively, that's going to be subjective).  There should be room for both - those that want the heavier RPG elements and those that want the lighter RPG elements.  Unfortunately as time has gone on, while the RPGier folks have been quietly enjoying the games - the notsoRPGier folks have been very vocal on forums.  Rather than looking for games, they've been changing games...

Originally posted by Johnie-Marz

The hate on Tab Targeting is like the hate on The Trinity. Gamers are at the "been there, done that," stage.

Think of it like a back up quarterback. Everyone loves the back up quarterback, "until they get into the game an through three interceptions."

Since Tab Targeting and The Trinity are the standard, players are now looking at what's sitting on the bench. 

Of course after playing a game without the trinity for a year, I am sure many players will be itching to play a Tank or a Healer; you know, put the starting quarterback into the game again. I am sure it will probably be the same with tab targeting.

But there is nothing wrong with a game trying it in order to give players variety from what is currently out there.

There's nothing new or inspiring about non-tab targeting twitchy combat, been there, done that, it's why I don't play first person shooters and the majority of console games.  I fled to MMOs becuase it was, at the time, one of the few places left that wasn't being bastardized into a twitchy e-sport game.  Sadly, my beloved single player RPG's have been converting to e-sports for quite a while now.

I don't have it.  Well done tab-target combat is fun. 

Good if it have queuing system like GW1 and Lotro have.

Originally posted by Vorthanion
It's a result of the console  / first person shooter gamers pouring into the MMO market.  Hating on anything that isn't like their beloved games, even if it means changing an industry that already has a big following that likes things like tab targeting and tactical style combat, with stats and classes having the bigger influence on combat than twitch skills and the quality of your internet connection.  It's also the reason why MMOs have been moving from virtual worlds into the e-Sport arena.

This. Counterstrike kiddies became WoW kiddies...and then the genre died a little.

Well, tab targeting in and of itself isn't bad.

I think it's essential for many abilities. But I like playing without it better.

It gets a bad rap though, particularly from dps classes. You could pick your target, then just cycle through your "rotation" - and that was all the interaction required by the game.

For tanking, it made things harder - you had to target the correct targets to taunt, many of which have the same name as other mobs, and use a combination of tab and visuals to make sure you were getting the right ones.

For healing, it didn't make a difference - you are mostly playing whack-a-mole anyway. Tab through friendly targets until you saw low health bars, or click on the low bar on your grid layout.

Originally posted by Vorthanion
It's a result of the console  / first person shooter gamers pouring into the MMO market.  Hating on anything that isn't like their beloved games, even if it means changing an industry that already has a big following that likes things like tab targeting and tactical style combat, with stats and classes having the bigger influence on combat than twitch skills and the quality of your internet connection.  It's also the reason why MMOs have been moving from virtual worlds into the e-Sport arena.

No, it's the fact that some of us like to actually use player skill during PvP and not rely on character skill and "random" effects.

Darkfall did it very well (best PvP of any MMO on the market right now, even WITH all the issues it had) and the majority of people that play that game are old-school MMOers, people from Ultima Online, etc.

I think it gets a lot of hate because GW2 gets a lot of hate.  And GW2 has it as an option, so, one more thing to hate on about it.

I personally use it in some situations, click in some situations and just aim in some situations.  I see it as just another way to play the game.  Some see it as the downfall of western civilization.

I don't think it has as much to do with console gaming, and more to do with the fact that it's been the same old tired gameplay for so many years already. Just because the formula has been done for so long, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily good. Some players are growing tired of combat that involves standing still while hitting a punching bag, or PvP that involves pressing a key to target someone and then press 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3 to kill him.  It is of no surprise that players are looking for alternatives that are more challenging, where player-skill becomes more important. Players feel more involved and their actual in-game achievements are won through their skills as players rather than a simple macro that kills everything for you while you stand still (or be on the receiving end of such macro)

And I'm not sure why OP is using Ocarina Of Time in his post, it's silly. Targetting in console games has always lacked precision, and this is even more true in the N64/Gamecube/Xbox/PS1 era. Such systems were put in place to ease aiming where it was required, but did not remove the necessity to aim however. Also very visible in games like OoT was that going into targetting mode also changed the way you fight but were not limited strictly to targetting mode, whereas MMORPGs only have tab-targetting for combat. Monsters in games like OoT were also more active. Dodging, blocking, hitting weak areas, timing, etc, were all very important aspects of combat. They had you use a variety of items as well to defeat them that changed how you played constantly.  There is no such thing in MMORPGs, you only have your row of skills and spells that you use in a consecutive order to kill everything while the monsters just stand in front of you waiting to die. It's a silly argument by OP to defend tab-targetting.

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Vorthanion
It's a result of the console  / first person shooter gamers pouring into the MMO market. 

I'd say its more a result of people getting tired that no one is doing anything different. Tab targetting existed because of technical limitations. Now we're at an age where even many indie MMOs have full real time twitch combat, yet the same tired old WoW clones stick to the tired tab targetting shallow combat formula.

I'd say it's probably a combination of both.  Each coincidentaly arguing for the same thing but for different reasons and probably for different solutions.

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

I don't think it has as much to do with console gaming, and more to do with the fact that it's been the same old tired gameplay for so many years already. Just because the formula has been done for so long, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily good. Some players are growing tired of combat that involves standing still while hitting a punching bag, or PvP that involves pressing a key to target someone and then press 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3 to kill him.  It is of no surprise that players are looking for alternatives that are more challenging, where player-skill becomes more important. Players feel more involved and their actual in-game achievements are won through their skills as players rather than a simple macro that kills everything for you while you stand still (or be on the receiving end of such macro)

 

And I'm not sure why OP is using Ocarina Of Time in his post, it's silly. Targetting in console games has always lacked precision, and this is even more true in the N64/Gamecube/Xbox/PS1 era. Such systems were put in place to ease aiming where it was required, but did not remove the necessity to aim however. Also very visible in games like OoT was that going into targetting mode also changed the way you fight but were not limited strictly to targetting mode, whereas MMORPGs only have tab-targetting for combat. Monsters in games like OoT were also more active. Dodging, blocking, hitting weak areas, timing, etc, were all very important aspects of combat. They had you use a variety of items as well to defeat them that changed how you played constantly.  There is no such thing in MMORPGs, you only have your row of skills and spells that you use in a consecutive order to kill everything while the monsters just stand in front of you waiting to die. It's a silly argument by OP to defend tab-targetting.

Although there are some rare situations where tab-targetting requires a decent level of player skill, you are spot on.

It has nothing to do with "console players" coming in, and everything to do with people getting sick and tired of the same cookie-cutter MMO.

I play Darkfall and am eagerly awaiting Darkfall: Uholy Wars. Once I got a taste of first person combat in an MMO, I simply can't go back to the tab-targetting model. I've tried a few new MMOs and simply get way too bored too quickly as it doesn't require much mental thought on my part and does not require much actual skill.

People have the tendency to believe that everybody wants what they want.  So they see something they do not want and automatically believe that the developers are doing it wrong - because obviously everybody must want what that player wants.  They'll offer various reasons for why developers are not doing it "right" - ignoring the simple fact that the reason something is the way it is...is just because that's how the majority wants it to be.  It's not that the devs are doing it wrong, it's not that everybody else is wrong, it's nothing like that... the simple truth is right there.  They just do not see it.

Unfortunately what this means though, is they're not likely to get the game they like.  What?  Sure they could.  They just have to come together and show a dev team out there what they want and the game will be built!  Uh huh...

...so they come together, they all agree they do not want tab targeting.  Everybody's happy!  Yay!

...then the devs ask the next question.  It could be any question.  Setting, time, art style, factions, etc, etc, etc.  Then it would all go to Hell.  It's like the sad joke about how you could fill a room with folks wanting a sandbox and each of them would want something different.

Originally posted by Kasmos

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

I don't think it has as much to do with console gaming, and more to do with the fact that it's been the same old tired gameplay for so many years already. Just because the formula has been done for so long, it doesn't mean that it's necessarily good. Some players are growing tired of combat that involves standing still while hitting a punching bag, or PvP that involves pressing a key to target someone and then press 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3 to kill him.  It is of no surprise that players are looking for alternatives that are more challenging, where player-skill becomes more important. Players feel more involved and their actual in-game achievements are won through their skills as players rather than a simple macro that kills everything for you while you stand still (or be on the receiving end of such macro)

 

And I'm not sure why OP is using Ocarina Of Time in his post, it's silly. Targetting in console games has always lacked precision, and this is even more true in the N64/Gamecube/Xbox/PS1 era. Such systems were put in place to ease aiming where it was required, but did not remove the necessity to aim however. Also very visible in games like OoT was that going into targetting mode also changed the way you fight but were not limited strictly to targetting mode, whereas MMORPGs only have tab-targetting for combat. Monsters in games like OoT were also more active. Dodging, blocking, hitting weak areas, timing, etc, were all very important aspects of combat. They had you use a variety of items as well to defeat them that changed how you played constantly.  There is no such thing in MMORPGs, you only have your row of skills and spells that you use in a consecutive order to kill everything while the monsters just stand in front of you waiting to die. It's a silly argument by OP to defend tab-targetting.

Although there are some rare situations where tab-targetting requires a decent level of player skill, you are spot on.

It has nothing to do with "console players" coming in, and everything to do with people getting sick and tired of the same cookie-cutter MMO.

I play Darkfall and am eagerly awaiting Darkfall: Uholy Wars. Once I got a taste of first person combat in an MMO, I simply can't go back to the tab-targetting model. I've tried a few new MMOs and simply get way too bored too quickly as it doesn't require much mental thought on my part and does not require much actual skill.

I'm not denying that tab-targetting can't require a fair amount of player skills, but I didn't want to start going into every little details.

And you had to plug DarkFall in there didn't you? :þ  Been quite a while since I hanged out on the DFO forums.