Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by grimal

OP -

I agree.  Trinity is there for  a reason.  I'm glad GW2 reminded us why.

 Trinity is there for one main reason. So crap players can roll healers after failing as DPS and Tanks and still get raid groups.

 

Personally I roll healers first so I dont have to fail at DPS and Tanking I just go straight to healer and hide my crap play behind my clerics symbol.

Am I the only one who sees Irony in this post?

Originally posted by Lathial

 

GW2 tried to get rid of the trinity...unfortunately what they got rid of was grouping. My first character I tried to make a support role and none of them are set up to be support.  Just plain DPS and your own heal works better in world and dungeons.

I don't think you've played many explorable dungeons in GW2 is you believe just DPS'ing is what you need to do.

Originally posted by LytheEmber

Man, I come back to these forums just to see if anything has changed and NOPE they have not!  There are still individuals who spew outright fallacies as if they were true.  I prefer to use real, concrete examples as opposed to vague generalizations that could be created without even reading the game's website.  So let me share some with you...

I made myself a guild chat channel in game when I want to talk to my guildies because there are so many people speaking in /map chat that I miss some of what my guildies are saying.  To say that there is very little communication or socializing is incorrect.

As for the trinity, knowing HOW to play your profession is key because not only will you play better for yourself but you WILL impact the play of others.  Some buddies of mine and I (wife included!) have tried the Ascalonian Catacombs story mode twice.  YES, we are taking our time and real life does have a way of eating up free time so AC is new to us. 

The engineer in my group was doing a great job kiting an Ascalonian ghost warrior while we were taking down an elementalist and mesmer.  However, I saw that he became crippled.  I used the third skill on my scepter (GRD profession) and CCed the warrior in place for a few ticks but then our ENGI was hit with some knockdown ability from the mesmer.  I quickly switched to shield and mace and used my 5th ability to knock the warrior away from him once again.  He regained his feet and I was able to turn back to the elementalist and help finish it off.

My point?  It was FUN to be able to think on the fly in real time and not have a predetermined  rotation of skills based on what I was SUPPOSED to be doing in the fight.  I got to do what I WANTED to do which was to protect him and then switch back to melee on a caster...and it WORKED!  As a result I became better at my profession and using my skills.  I was only able to do so because I was SOCIALIZING with others. 

The awesome part was since I learned  HOW to play my profession I was a better TEAM player...and the only one in the group with NO repair bill...never died in the whole run. :)

Anyway, there is socialization in the game if you seek it...I joined a very active guild with people I already knew.

But I must say...you have EIGHT characters already and most are over 40?  So you have two accounts or paid for extra character slots?  You must really like the game...er wait do you hate it?  I mean that's a lot of time and money put into a game that was NEVER going to have a trinity in the first place.  How did you miss that fact?

Perhaps you missed socialization opportunities while speed leveling all those characters.  How do you have the time?

Games are what you make of them, as others have said.  Don't blame the game for what you choose not to do.

I bolded the important part of your post because it is the basis of all your arguments.  You joined a guild of active people you already knew.... So, you didnt have to actually do anything to meet people in the game.  You already had a group of friends to "group" and "guild" with.   My friends are not playing this game- shoot!  I guess im anti-social.

Also, yes i purchased the other character slots, I like the game and if you would look at my other posts you will see, I have always said- I like the game and game play, I just wish it was more group friendly / not just a single player game with some group aspects.  (And had a better story but thats another story all together)

Lath

I dont get the "see ya" grouping thing im usually grouped with 4 guildies but when no one is on i have absolutely no problem getting in a group ever it usually takes less than 1 minute..

However not being able to kick the head of the undead without being severely diminished to nothing experience/karma/copper wise within 15-20 minutes is another story..

Originally posted by fat_taddler

I have to agree with the OP.  This game is no more social than a FPS.  Yea, we're all fighting on the same map but you'd be hard pressed to call it a team or collaborative effort.   

 

Sure the game is fun for a bit but for many of us, it's the social aspects of MMO's that keep us engaged over the long term. 

 

While some may not miss the trinity, I also feel that not having it will hurt the game over the long run.  You simply cannot create an immersive PvE experience with the "every man for himself" mentality which seems to be the case in most pugs.  

 

Sure, you could set up organized guild runs but I'm finding that a lot of people I play with do the dungeons once and don't touch them again due to them being more annoying than fun and not providing much in terms of rewards. 

 

At the end of the day, GW2 is pretty much exactly what many predicted, a decent game to play for a month or two that you can come back to anytime... nothing really wrong with that I guess.

 

I know I've only done one dungeon's story mode a couple of times but I received some decent money and a couple nice items I could give to other guildies.  It's purely a matter of opinion or personal preference and that is fine of course.  No argument there.

However, the combat in the game is much like the game.  You CAN choose to be all about yourself OR you CAN choose to help others you are fighting beside, i.e. planting banners as a WAR instead of simply maxing out power and swinging a greatsword all the time.  The game does offer such a choice.  So, again, it is the people choosing to play in such a way, it is not the game forcing them to do so.

As for your FPS analogy, I love Borderlands because I can work cooperatively with others and we all fight better and survive more as a result.  Dead Island is another example.  Sure I COULD play solo and the game allows me to do so but I cannot blame the game if playing for myself is not as fun.

I can shoot a b-ball by myself or invite a couple of people over for a game, but shooting hoops alone does not make basketball a bad sport.  Probably not the best example, but it's been a long Monday.

Anyway, to each his own!

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by grimal

OP -

I agree.  Trinity is there for  a reason.  I'm glad GW2 reminded us why.

 Trinity is there for one main reason. So crap players can roll healers after failing as DPS and Tanks and still get raid groups.

 

Personally I roll healers first so I dont have to fail at DPS and Tanking I just go straight to healer and hide my crap play behind my clerics symbol.

Am I the only one who sees Irony in this post?

you know that any1 can check your healing any time right? you know lets say...hmmm...recount, right?

Originally posted by Lathial

Originally posted by LytheEmber

Man, I come back to these forums just to see if anything has changed and NOPE they have not!  There are still individuals who spew outright fallacies as if they were true.  I prefer to use real, concrete examples as opposed to vague generalizations that could be created without even reading the game's website.  So let me share some with you...

I made myself a guild chat channel in game when I want to talk to my guildies because there are so many people speaking in /map chat that I miss some of what my guildies are saying.  To say that there is very little communication or socializing is incorrect.

As for the trinity, knowing HOW to play your profession is key because not only will you play better for yourself but you WILL impact the play of others.  Some buddies of mine and I (wife included!) have tried the Ascalonian Catacombs story mode twice.  YES, we are taking our time and real life does have a way of eating up free time so AC is new to us. 

The engineer in my group was doing a great job kiting an Ascalonian ghost warrior while we were taking down an elementalist and mesmer.  However, I saw that he became crippled.  I used the third skill on my scepter (GRD profession) and CCed the warrior in place for a few ticks but then our ENGI was hit with some knockdown ability from the mesmer.  I quickly switched to shield and mace and used my 5th ability to knock the warrior away from him once again.  He regained his feet and I was able to turn back to the elementalist and help finish it off.

My point?  It was FUN to be able to think on the fly in real time and not have a predetermined  rotation of skills based on what I was SUPPOSED to be doing in the fight.  I got to do what I WANTED to do which was to protect him and then switch back to melee on a caster...and it WORKED!  As a result I became better at my profession and using my skills.  I was only able to do so because I was SOCIALIZING with others. 

The awesome part was since I learned  HOW to play my profession I was a better TEAM player...and the only one in the group with NO repair bill...never died in the whole run. :)

Anyway, there is socialization in the game if you seek it...I joined a very active guild with people I already knew.

But I must say...you have EIGHT characters already and most are over 40?  So you have two accounts or paid for extra character slots?  You must really like the game...er wait do you hate it?  I mean that's a lot of time and money put into a game that was NEVER going to have a trinity in the first place.  How did you miss that fact?

Perhaps you missed socialization opportunities while speed leveling all those characters.  How do you have the time?

Games are what you make of them, as others have said.  Don't blame the game for what you choose not to do.

I bolded the important part of your post because it is the basis of all your arguments.  You joined a guild of active people you already knew.... So, you didnt have to actually do anything to meet people in the game.  You already had a group of friends to "group" and "guild" with.   My friends are not playing this game- shoot!  I guess im anti-social.

Also, yes i purchased the other character slots, I like the game and if you would look at my other posts you will see, I have always said- I like the game and game play, I just wish it was more group friendly / not just a single player game with some group aspects.  (And had a better story but thats another story all together)

 

Lath

Have you actually tried to group with random people in the general area or do you expect them to make the group for you. I won't invite someone who is not being particularly vocal on whether or not they want to join a group, but I won't deny someone if they want to join one either since loot isn't shared and then we can help each other on hearts and DEs without just following each other around and creeping on the other or following them for no particular reason but to basically share kills and nothing more.

It is what you make of it.

I made more friends, talked to a lot more other people and grouped wih more people then I did in the four weeks I played WOW.

Plus every time there is an event you are working together with other people, even when you don't speak  there is a group buzz goin on. People rezzing each other, doing combo's, asking for help in chat.

It is a perfect sytem for me. Although I can see how peopel used to guilds and doing raids, using teamspeak, etc. would think otherwise.

I love how you don't HAVE to group, except dungeons. (which I still haven't done, it's hard to commit for hours for me)

I also think a lot of people are real loners, ten people around a skill point and no one can be bothered to say hi orr answer a question. But I quess that's more the people's fault then the game.

Interesting perspective. I joined a guild very early on. We have 172 players and we chat on Mumble all the time. I usually log into voice chat before I start the game client up. I've also made lots of friends just by sending out party invites with people I see in the same zone as me. Because we aren't competing with each other for crafting materials grouping is a great idea unlike some other games I can mention.  Everything about the game is more enjoyable in a group, even if just one extra player because skill combos are easier to create, and moving around in the higher level zones is quicker with another player. 

Teaming up gives our Guild more influence too which is good for everyone. I can see your experience has been different but I have found GW2 players polite and easy to talk to. 

Although you can just roll with whoever happens to be nearby it's very obvious in WvW when you come up against coordinated guilds because they roll right over disorganised mobs. It's called "Guild Wars" for a reason. I suggest you make the effort to join one first and see if your experience changes. 

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by grimal

OP -

I agree.  Trinity is there for  a reason.  I'm glad GW2 reminded us why.

 Trinity is there for one main reason. So crap players can roll healers after failing as DPS and Tanks and still get raid groups.

 

Personally I roll healers first so I dont have to fail at DPS and Tanking I just go straight to healer and hide my crap play behind my clerics symbol.

Am I the only one who sees Irony in this post?

 Or you just missed the fact that I was not being serious.

Originally posted by papardelios

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by grimal

OP -

I agree.  Trinity is there for  a reason.  I'm glad GW2 reminded us why.

 Trinity is there for one main reason. So crap players can roll healers after failing as DPS and Tanks and still get raid groups.

 

Personally I roll healers first so I dont have to fail at DPS and Tanking I just go straight to healer and hide my crap play behind my clerics symbol.

Am I the only one who sees Irony in this post?

you know that any1 can check your healing any time right? you know lets say...hmmm...recount, right?

 What are you even talking about?

The only problem this game has is that it require two hands to actually play it, so there are no hands left to write.

Still plenty of chat, people following other people or requesting grouping, questions in chat that are mostly promptly answered with minimum asstery, etc.

Ah those group events at 3 in the morning where myself and a stranger are working side by side to mow down a champion and its adds... No, we can't really chat since we don't have macros to perform the next 35 actions. But cooperation as you will rarely see in the open world of any other themepark MMO where open world is that area  where you solo til level cap if you don't LFD.

What about WvW, where people report enemy movement, coordinate attacks at certain camps, etc?

No socialization at all...

GW2 is a game though and require both hands for optimal play.

Sincerely every guild should have VOIP.

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by grimal

OP -

I agree.  Trinity is there for  a reason.  I'm glad GW2 reminded us why.

 Trinity is there for one main reason. So crap players can roll healers after failing as DPS and Tanks and still get raid groups.

 

Personally I roll healers first so I dont have to fail at DPS and Tanking I just go straight to healer and hide my crap play behind my clerics symbol.

Am I the only one who sees Irony in this post?

 Or you just missed the fact that I was not being serious.

Ironiclaly, I'm almost never serious. But sure.

Just kinda funny, you know, Choice of words kinds thing.

Originally posted by grimal

OP -

I agree.  Trinity is there for  a reason.  I'm glad GW2 reminded us why.

This is true.  I think many of the early beta testers thought everyone would like something different (I mean how often do you hear bitching about WoW clones, "more of the same", and I wish there were something different).  That was probably a poor assumption.

Some people want to be told how to game and what to do.  If you have a class that does one thing best, in a combat system with rigidly defined roles, and must form a formal group with a predefined number of other people, then the player doesn't really have to think through the content.  All they have to do is read some wiki/forum to get the best build and go faceroll content for their gear coin.  It's even easier when all class can be described as one of three things: damage sponge, health bar filler, or health bar depleter.  That seems to be what trinity people like.

Even a game like RIFT where classes can perform more than one role has a very narrowly defined approached to ever single encounter.  You're going to fight every single boss fight the same way and you're going to clear trash (only if you have to of course) exactly the same way every time.  Some fights have the added depth of disco dancing while you fight.  This is because there isn't any depth to the combat so do a dance to add variety and "challenge" to the fight even though the dances are exactly the same every time too.  And that seems to be what trinity people like.

Guild Wars combat isn't like this.  Guild Wars relies on shutdown to mitigate damage, in combat buffs to increase others performance, skill combinations to increase effectiveness, debuffs to provide vulnerability for damage, dodging as a damage mitigator, and many small heals from participants to keep health bars filled.  This all requires multiple people coordinating their efforts together to achieve success.  That is what grouping is about to me.

I've been in some areas (public instances where anyone can come join no less) where I worked together with some strangers I met to defeat the content.  There were puzzles and tricks that required at least two people.  This is the most difficult grouping I've ever had in a game and mostly because it really required working together with others.  That is what grouping is about to me.

Grouping for some people just means clicking the yes button and pressing 1, 2, 3, 4 and that's okay for them because they need that direction and structure.  I don't think GW2 is a bad game because it's players don't need that though.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by grimal

OP -

I agree.  Trinity is there for  a reason.  I'm glad GW2 reminded us why.

 Trinity is there for one main reason. So crap players can roll healers after failing as DPS and Tanks and still get raid groups.

 

Personally I roll healers first so I dont have to fail at DPS and Tanking I just go straight to healer and hide my crap play behind my clerics symbol.

Am I the only one who sees Irony in this post?

 Or you just missed the fact that I was not being serious.

Ironiclaly, I'm almost never serious. But sure.

Just kinda funny, you know, Choice of words kinds thing.

 I was basically making fun of myself and the fact that healers are usually in such short supply that they are the crappy players ticket to end game gear.

Originally posted by deathangell
This isnt the games fault this is yours im 80 almost have everything for my legendary and i have done plenty of groups and see people like warriors pick up tank roles and ele/guards and even engis pick up roles as support/healers so you must be doing somethign wrong. Your right i didnt ever feel the need to group with peopel as i leveled so i didnt i enjoyed the solo game all the way to 80 then i formed a guild with other 80s and i loved the instance with controled tanking and healing. The game does push a kite based game for those that dont want to deal with having to look for a support player a tank player and rape dps. But i promise you those roles can be filled and when they are instances run like dreams and there fun and exciting paths.

Thank you for your perspective.  I really appreciate it when high level chime in.  Im only half way to 80 with my toons and like you it feels like a single player game early on.  When I do group with people they are not geared or / skilled to play a specific role so its usually dps/support for everyone.  

I will disagree wtih your first statement tho about it not being the games fault in that even my level 40ish warrior and guardian cant truly "tank" the hard stuff or at least not with any of the healers ive encountered and they full master crafted / geared toughness etc etc.  And my heal speced mage/ ranger / engineer etc cannot heal a tank with the gear and skills available at level 40ish.  

The thing is- normal PvE- outside of dungeons- there is not a need to really group up and have roles.  Maybe at 80 there is but you would think if the game was ment to have traditional roles, and GW2 devs said themselves they have eliminated the trinity, then you would play roles at the lower levels also. 

Look, I like the game- I will join a guild and stuff eventually but like you said yourself- you didnt group/ guild up till level 80- and that seems like to me a mistake on the development side of the game to have players go all the way to 80 before guilding or grouping up for things....

Lath

Originally posted by Lathial

Anyway, there is socialization in the game if you seek it...I joined a very active guild with people I already knew.

I bolded the important part of your post because it is the basis of all your arguments.  You joined a guild of active people you already knew.... So, you didnt have to actually do anything to meet people in the game.  You already had a group of friends to "group" and "guild" with.   My friends are not playing this game- shoot!  I guess im anti-social.

Also, yes i purchased the other character slots, I like the game and if you would look at my other posts you will see, I have always said- I like the game and game play, I just wish it was more group friendly / not just a single player game with some group aspects.  (And had a better story but thats another story all together)

 

Lath

Ah, I am glad that my point was so easily discerned.  Let me clarify.  I do not know EVERYONE in the guild, only about 10% of them and those are people that followed ME to the game.  Wanna know how I met them?  By random chance in other MMOs (DDO and LotRO to be specific).  I know I will also meet new friends in GW2 and it will just happen naturally.  Or I can go out and seek others to help and form new bonds with.  

My other guildmates I am still getting to know.  I joined the guild in April...LONG before launch and knew absolutely NO ONE in the guild.  I made the effort to create social connections and it was easy to do so.

I have also added a few friends along the way in game.  Not all are added to my friends list but I DO recognize others' names as people I have helped or whom have helped me.  The game encourages people to work together in so many ways that it's almost impossible not to come across people you could get along with if you made the effort.

As for that statement above, that is pure choice and pure opinion.  You cannot claim such a statement is an absolute truth about the game because the game's mechanics are set up to be VERY group friendly unless you choose for it NOT to be.  At least people have a choice and are not forced down one path.  Well, unless you want to do dungeons...there is NO SOLO mode for those at all.  If YOU personally want the game to be more group friendly, then reach out to others and stop projecting YOUR PERSONAL choices onto the mechanics of the game claiming that it is somehow built in a manner that is prohibitive of your wishes.

One of the most annoying things in life is when someone is presented with a solution that is viable but instead chooses to continue complaining instead of offering any possible solutions of their own.

So what are your ideas or solutions for this "not group friendly" aspect of this game?

Originally posted by Lathial

Originally posted by deathangell
This isnt the games fault this is yours im 80 almost have everything for my legendary and i have done plenty of groups and see people like warriors pick up tank roles and ele/guards and even engis pick up roles as support/healers so you must be doing somethign wrong. Your right i didnt ever feel the need to group with peopel as i leveled so i didnt i enjoyed the solo game all the way to 80 then i formed a guild with other 80s and i loved the instance with controled tanking and healing. The game does push a kite based game for those that dont want to deal with having to look for a support player a tank player and rape dps. But i promise you those roles can be filled and when they are instances run like dreams and there fun and exciting paths.

 

Thank you for your perspective.  I really appreciate it when high level chime in.  Im only half way to 80 with my toons and like you it feels like a single player game early on.  When I do group with people they are not geared or / skilled to play a specific role so its usually dps/support for everyone.  

 

I will disagree wtih your first statement tho about it not being the games fault in that even my level 40ish warrior and guardian cant truly "tank" the hard stuff or at least not with any of the healers ive encountered and they full master crafted / geared toughness etc etc.  And my heal speced mage/ ranger / engineer etc cannot heal a tank with the gear and skills available at level 40ish.  

 

The thing is- normal PvE- outside of dungeons- there is not a need to really group up and have roles.  Maybe at 80 there is but you would think if the game was ment to have traditional roles, and GW2 devs said themselves they have eliminated the trinity, then you would play roles at the lower levels also. 

 

Look, I like the game- I will join a guild and stuff eventually but like you said yourself- you didnt group/ guild up till level 80- and that seems like to me a mistake on the development side of the game to have players go all the way to 80 before guilding or grouping up for things....

 

Lath

This game isn't a trinity game... So there is no tanking class and there is no healing class. Thats how the game was designed, so it's not the games fault that you can't stand in front of the mob, that's your own fault for thinking that you could...

Originally posted by LytheEmber

Originally posted by Lathial

Anyway, there is socialization in the game if you seek it...I joined a very active guild with people I already knew.

I bolded the important part of your post because it is the basis of all your arguments.  You joined a guild of active people you already knew.... So, you didnt have to actually do anything to meet people in the game.  You already had a group of friends to "group" and "guild" with.   My friends are not playing this game- shoot!  I guess im anti-social.

Also, yes i purchased the other character slots, I like the game and if you would look at my other posts you will see, I have always said- I like the game and game play, I just wish it was more group friendly / not just a single player game with some group aspects.  (And had a better story but thats another story all together)

 

Lath

Ah, I am glad that my point was so easily discerned.  Let me clarify.  I do not know EVERYONE in the guild, only about 10% of them and those are people that followed ME to the game.  Wanna know how I met them?  By random chance in other MMOs (DDO and LotRO to be specific).  I know I will also meet new friends in GW2 and it will just happen naturally.  Or I can go out and seek others to help and form new bonds with.  

My other guildmates I am still getting to know.  I joined the guild in April...LONG before launch and knew absolutely NO ONE in the guild.  I made the effort to create social connections and it was easy to do so.

I have also added a few friends along the way in game.  Not all are added to my friends list but I DO recognize others' names as people I have helped or whom have helped me.  The game encourages people to work together in so many ways that it's almost impossible not to come across people you could get along with if you made the effort.

As for that statement above, that is pure choice and pure opinion.  You cannot claim such a statement is an absolute truth about the game because the game's mechanics are set up to be VERY group friendly unless you choose for it NOT to be.  At least people have a choice and are not forced down one path.  Well, unless you want to do dungeons...there is NO SOLO mode for those at all.  If YOU personally want the game to be more group friendly, then reach out to others and stop projecting YOUR PERSONAL choices onto the mechanics of the game claiming that it is somehow built in a manner that is prohibitive of your wishes.

One of the most annoying things in life is when someone is presented with a solution that is viable but instead chooses to continue complaining instead of offering any possible solutions of their own.

So what are your ideas or solutions for this "not group friendly" aspect of this game?

hehe,  I didnt come here to make a list fo things to change how my gaming life is.  I can here to voice my opinion, period.  This is not MMO therapy where I make a list of the things that can impove my game then have you, a total stanger, appove. Come on!  Ive been playing MMO's since UO came out.  I will find a guild group etc.

I just posted a reply to a gent above who did not "need" to group untill level 80.  And when he did at 80 its been a lot of fun- I much like him have not found that group yet! I will though im sure of it.  What I will say tho is that because there is no real need to group / guild then its harder to find one that suits your style / age / etc.  

Lath