I hear this argument all the time; "developers don't make sandbox games because it's a niche market" or when people discuss new developing games they say, "they shouldn't implement "x" idea to cater to the sandbox niche".

The definition of niche is as follows:

A. Situation or activity specially suited to a person's interests, abilities, or nature

B. A special area of demand for a product or service

No where does that imply that the niche has to be small, despite that connotation being made all throughout gaming forums. But you're right, there certainly is a sandbox niche out there and we've been dying to find a good game to support. Does everyone think that all of us who grew up on games like Ultima Online just disappeared? The fact is, there just haven't been games worth playing since WoW watered down the market.

There are a large amount of people who have been waiting for a good sandbox MMO for a long time, and only recently have developers started taking chances at breaking the current mold and trying different things. Look at the success of EVE as a perfect example of this, as well as Darkfall.

I myself joined Darkfall when that game launched, and haven't had that much fun in an MMO since Ultima Online. At launch, so many people wanted to buy the game the purchasing system crashed. The point is, sandbox games are making a comeback, and to those that think there are not a lot of us excited about that and won't be returning for old school MMOs like Darkfall: Unholy Wars, you're completely wrong.

Originally posted by Kasmos

I hear this argument all the time; "developers don't make sandbox games because it's a niche market" or when people discuss new developing games they say, "they shouldn't implement "x" idea to cater to the sandbox niche".

The definition of niche is as follows:

A. Situation or activity specially suited to a person's interests, abilities, or nature

B. A special area of demand for a product or service

No where does that imply that the niche has to be small, despite that connotation being made all throughout gaming forums. But you're right, there certainly is a sandbox niche out there and we've been dying to find a good game to support. Does everyone think that all of us who grew up on games like Ultima Online just disappeared? The fact is, there just haven't been games worth playing since WoW watered down the market.

There are a large amount of people who have been waiting for a good sandbox MMO for a long time, and only recently have developers started taking chances at breaking the current mold and trying different things. Look at the success of EVE as a perfect example of this, as well as Darkfall.

I myself joined Darkfall when that game launched, and haven't had that much fun in an MMO since Ultima Online. At launch, so many people wanted to buy the game the purchasing system crashed. The point is, sandbox games are making a comeback, and to those that think there are not a lot of us excited about that and won't be returning for old school MMOs like Darkfall: Unholy Wars, you're completely wrong.

You've presented an item for argument (argument meaning a discussion or debate), that being that the hardcore sandbox niche is not small.

And yet no where in your thesis do you present any evidence or even support of any kind for that position.

What reasons/evidence/experience led you to this conclusion?

The entire MMORPG market was concidered a niche before WoW made it main stream. Things evolve and nobody is capable of telling the future.

I always grin when I see someone throw random crystal ball predictions like "FFA PvP will always fail" or "sandbox MMOs will only ever be a niche".

What if for example Titan turned out to be a sandbox game and it was an interstellar smash hit, what then, fortune tellers?

---

Originally posted by Failings
The entire MMORPG market was concidered a niche before WoW made it main stream. Things evolve and nobody is capable of telling the future.

I always grin when I see someone throw random crystal ball predictions like "FFA PvP will always fail" or "sandbox MMOs will only ever be a niche".

What if for example Titan turned out to be a sandbox game and it was an interstellar smash hit, what then, fortune tellers?

---

Originally posted by Failings

The entire MMORPG market was concidered a niche before WoW made it main stream. Things evolve and nobody is capable of telling the future.

I always grin when I see someone throw random crystal ball predictions like "FFA PvP will always fail" or "sandbox MMOs will only ever be a niche".

What if for example Titan turned out to be a sandbox game and it was an interstellar smash hit, what then, fortune tellers?

The thing is that there has not been a single big budget sandbox MMO created, ever. Yet people say they would not work. How do they know?

Obviously big money producers dont believe so either, as they are not funding any, but one day one will take the leap and create a 100 million dollar sandbox, possible ThemePark hybrid, and it will probably blow every other MMO of the map.

Originally posted by Aelious
I would present as evidence that three big name themepark MMOs released this year have seen thier developer downsized and the game worse off than was anticipated.

Initial sales does not seem to have been the problem but rather player retention at lack of content. I believe a sandbox type game that gave players more to do would be very welcome.

A point of contention however may be how to handle PvP.

That would only be evidence that people did not like those particular games, it is not evidence that the sandbox crowd is big. 

People would use the "niche" arguement because developers weren't making sandbox games, and they weren't making sandbox games because they probably felt that noone wanted one. So now, theme park games seem to be having problems here and there, and sandbox MMO's are getting more attention. So now, Dev's will start looking at the sandbox space, and if one becomes a reasonable success, then we'll probably see the market flooded with them until THAT space crashes.

I really think developers should stop asking the gamers what they want. They should go back to how they used to make games, by making the games they would like to play themselves. Clearly, with gamers, they don't even know what hey want. They scream and yell to get one way, and then want the other. They scream and and yell positively about the next big game, and then cry and yell because it's not what they want.

Studio's should just start releasing games on what they think would be great, not by what they think the players will consider great. Leave that stupid strategy to EA, because really, they have got to be one of the worst companies, they can make money yes, but they shouldn't be. 

No matter what, gamers truely speak with their wallets, and not by the nonsense they spew on the internet.

Yes, just my opinion.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Failings

The entire MMORPG market was concidered a niche before WoW made it main stream. Things evolve and nobody is capable of telling the future.

I always grin when I see someone throw random crystal ball predictions like "FFA PvP will always fail" or "sandbox MMOs will only ever be a niche".

What if for example Titan turned out to be a sandbox game and it was an interstellar smash hit, what then, fortune tellers?

The thing is that there has not been a single big budget sandbox MMO created, ever. Yet people say they would not work. How do they know?

Obviously big money producers dont believe so either, as they are not funding any, but one day one will take the leap and create a 100 million dollar sandbox, possible ThemePark hybrid, and it will probably blow every other MMO of the map.

I would say it's because in the beginning when they were all poorly made there were more sandbox than themepark games, however the themepark attained a significant greater number of subscriptions.  This trend then continued as more themepark and sandbox games game down the line.  Again recall that none of those games were big budget compared to today's games.

Now true, there has been no big budget sandbox game released on the order of WoW, SwTor... budgets but there were many on the order of EQ, Daoc, Lineage, SWG budgets. 

Pretty sure there was this fairly big sandbox RPG released called "Skyrim" or something like that.  I've also heard some buzz about this whole "DayZ" thing that is supposedly pretty hardcore or something like that.

And I mean, not like the original wave of MMO's like UO, AC, and EQ had open PvP and looting or anything.

Wait a minute.......

So I think this thread is slightly mistitled.

I thought I was going to be presented with a graph or article or some sort of referable and/or verifiable evidence that there were large numbers of people seeking sandboxes.

Instead, you provided a definition of 'niche' which doesn't limit numbers and some andectdotal/assumptive information 'where do you think us UO players went?'.

Well, I played UO. I didn't go anywhere either. But I did grow up. Now I have a wife, family, career - so I haven't exactly been waiting in the wings for another sandbox to rule my life. I'm looking for themeparks which give me shorter bursts of entertainment to fold into my current lifestyle. And I bet more of the generation who played UO religiously fits into my demographic rather than those just biding their time for the next sandbox.

So, you see, there is an answer to your question which explains partly why sandboxes could cater to a smaller population. Therefore, you haven't convinced me of anything.

If you had said,

'my guess is that there are more people wanting sandboxes than the industry thinks, because I'd guess there are a lot of folks like me'

I wouldn't have a problem with that.

But you didn't. You spouted unverifiable opinion as fact - and that quality on these forums drives me bonkers. Despite what you think.

Originally posted by Yamota
It is not small and it is growing everytime yet another shallow, simplistic, linear triple A MMORPG is released.

Yet at the same time the playerbase shrinks whenever an indie developer makes yet another FFA MMO and slaps the sandbox label on it.

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Failings

The entire MMORPG market was concidered a niche before WoW made it main stream. Things evolve and nobody is capable of telling the future.

I always grin when I see someone throw random crystal ball predictions like "FFA PvP will always fail" or "sandbox MMOs will only ever be a niche".

What if for example Titan turned out to be a sandbox game and it was an interstellar smash hit, what then, fortune tellers?

The thing is that there has not been a single big budget sandbox MMO created, ever. Yet people say they would not work. How do they know?

Obviously big money producers dont believe so either, as they are not funding any, but one day one will take the leap and create a 100 million dollar sandbox, possible ThemePark hybrid, and it will probably blow every other MMO of the map.

I'd have to disagree. SWG is what I would have a considered a "big budget" sandbox mmo, back then anyways. Sure, it wasn't a 100 million MMO, but I'm sure it was costly. And sandbox it was.

Originally posted by Uzik

Pretty sure there was this fairly big sandbox RPG released called "Skyrim" or something like that.  I've also heard some buzz about this whole "DayZ" thing that is supposedly pretty hardcore or something like that.

 

And I mean, not like the original wave of MMO's like UO, AC, and EQ had open PvP and looting or anything.

 

 

 

Wait a minute.......

I would say that Dayz and Skyrim are not evidence that there is a big sandbox MMO crowd, only that people are interested in very small and limited sandbox like titles.  An MMO is a totally different monkey, and IMO skyrim is more themepark like than anything.

However

EQ was a themepark.

All the above does is point out there MAY be a significant population and that more study/focus should be done to determine if that actually is the case. 

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Failings

The entire MMORPG market was concidered a niche before WoW made it main stream. Things evolve and nobody is capable of telling the future.

I always grin when I see someone throw random crystal ball predictions like "FFA PvP will always fail" or "sandbox MMOs will only ever be a niche".

What if for example Titan turned out to be a sandbox game and it was an interstellar smash hit, what then, fortune tellers?

The thing is that there has not been a single big budget sandbox MMO created, ever. Yet people say they would not work. How do they know?

Obviously big money producers dont believe so either, as they are not funding any, but one day one will take the leap and create a 100 million dollar sandbox, possible ThemePark hybrid, and it will probably blow every other MMO of the map.

CCP despite starting off small, has grown rather large with EVE Online.

Darkfall started with a tiny developer group, and has since grown tremendously and received a few million dollars for their upcoming Darkfall: Unholy Wars.

Is it Blizzard's numbers? No, but the point is it doesn't have to be.

Originally posted by Kasmos

Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Failings

The entire MMORPG market was concidered a niche before WoW made it main stream. Things evolve and nobody is capable of telling the future.

I always grin when I see someone throw random crystal ball predictions like "FFA PvP will always fail" or "sandbox MMOs will only ever be a niche".

What if for example Titan turned out to be a sandbox game and it was an interstellar smash hit, what then, fortune tellers?

The thing is that there has not been a single big budget sandbox MMO created, ever. Yet people say they would not work. How do they know?

Obviously big money producers dont believe so either, as they are not funding any, but one day one will take the leap and create a 100 million dollar sandbox, possible ThemePark hybrid, and it will probably blow every other MMO of the map.

CCP despite starting off small, has grown rather large with EVE Online.

Darkfall started with a tiny developer group, and has since grown tremendously and received a few million dollars for their upcoming Darkfall: Unholy Wars.

Is it Blizzard's numbers? No, but the point is it doesn't have to be.

Darkfall completely collapsed, about 40k sold at release will only5-10k playing the last while. 

CCP has been the biggest sandbox success.  All of which points says yes there is a crowd but no real indication of how big the crowd is. 

Originally posted by Kasmos

I hear this argument all the time; "developers don't make sandbox games because it's a niche market" or when people discuss new developing games they say, "they shouldn't implement "x" idea to cater to the sandbox niche".

The definition of niche is as follows:

A. Situation or activity specially suited to a person's interests, abilities, or nature

B. A special area of demand for a product or service

No where does that imply that the niche has to be small, despite that connotation being made all throughout gaming forums. But you're right, there certainly is a sandbox niche out there and we've been dying to find a good game to support. Does everyone think that all of us who grew up on games like Ultima Online just disappeared? The fact is, there just haven't been games worth playing since WoW watered down the market.

There are a large amount of people who have been waiting for a good sandbox MMO for a long time, and only recently have developers started taking chances at breaking the current mold and trying different things. Look at the success of EVE as a perfect example of this, as well as Darkfall.

I myself joined Darkfall when that game launched, and haven't had that much fun in an MMO since Ultima Online. At launch, so many people wanted to buy the game the purchasing system crashed. The point is, sandbox games are making a comeback, and to those that think there are not a lot of us excited about that and won't be returning for old school MMOs like Darkfall: Unholy Wars, you're completely wrong.

Sorry, but your wrong.  It's a small and loud group of players.  Darkfalls purchasing system crashed because it's Adventurine and they halfass everything.   Eve is the only consistent sandbox player base, and you're not pulling players away from that game due to its unique design and scope,

Originally posted by Draemos

Originally posted by Kasmos

I hear this argument all the time; "developers don't make sandbox games because it's a niche market" or when people discuss new developing games they say, "they shouldn't implement "x" idea to cater to the sandbox niche".

The definition of niche is as follows:

A. Situation or activity specially suited to a person's interests, abilities, or nature

B. A special area of demand for a product or service

No where does that imply that the niche has to be small, despite that connotation being made all throughout gaming forums. But you're right, there certainly is a sandbox niche out there and we've been dying to find a good game to support. Does everyone think that all of us who grew up on games like Ultima Online just disappeared? The fact is, there just haven't been games worth playing since WoW watered down the market.

There are a large amount of people who have been waiting for a good sandbox MMO for a long time, and only recently have developers started taking chances at breaking the current mold and trying different things. Look at the success of EVE as a perfect example of this, as well as Darkfall.

I myself joined Darkfall when that game launched, and haven't had that much fun in an MMO since Ultima Online. At launch, so many people wanted to buy the game the purchasing system crashed. The point is, sandbox games are making a comeback, and to those that think there are not a lot of us excited about that and won't be returning for old school MMOs like Darkfall: Unholy Wars, you're completely wrong.

Sorry, but your wrong.  It's a small and loud group of players.  Darkfalls purchasing system crashed because it's Adventurine and the halfass everything. 

You mean Aventurine, there is no D... lols