Originally posted by Parasitenoir

Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater.  I just have a more general question.

 

Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

 

I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .

 

what are peoples thoughts on this?

Because it is pointless?

Take Rift as an example since you mentioned it. If 3 guys ran up and started to attack me while I qas questing/hunting I simply did the dance emote while they killed me, went back to my spawn point, paid a couple of silver to get rid of the penalty and went back on my way. What did they gain and what did I lose? Nothing at all.

Now let's say you add a serious penalty to dying so open world PvP can really cause some havoc. Well then people just won't play the game. When people want to log in to get some quests done but can suffer serious consequences when some guy and his 5 friends pop out and kill him, he gets frustrated that his gaming time was wasted and that he is now worse off then when he logged in and he quits the game. For most people, PvP has to be something they're in the mood for and they aren't always in the mood for it. So you can't just say it will happen anytime at all. On top of that you have the immature who instead of just killing a guy, will then hunt out/camp/harass that same guy for the humor of it which is even more likely to make people quit.

You just can't create a system where open world PvP is interesting enough to get involved in, yet not severe enough that that mainstream audience (instead of the niche audience that loves PvP all the time) will want to play on a server/in a world that has it. Also the mainstream audience tends to prefer a fair fight, where as most open world PvP is a group running around ganking solo people and that group runs off as soon as an opposing group shows up. They then find another area without a big group and pick on solo people again. Overall that isn't a fun gaming experience.

It's turning into a flame war of course, using the word hardcore players are bitching about games not being what it use to be of OPvP. Like I said before, read my previous post, we can talk about this for a thousand years and not agree or make no progress of agreement.

We can always say that players that hate getting ganked bitch about it. Solution: Leave the game/join a pve server. Simple as shit really.

Look everyone, it's just like arguing over which is better pve or pvp for example. No progress of agreement at all.

Originally posted by Jonoku

It's turning into a flame war of course, using the word hardcore players are bitching about games not being what it use to be of OPvP. Like I said before, read my previous post, we can talk about this for a thousand years and not agree or make no progress of agreement.

We can always say that players that hate getting ganked bitch about it. Solution: Leave the game/join a pve server. Simple as shit really.

They do...and the OPvP servers are the smallest and OPvP games dwindle to niche status.

Most people are cry babies and casuals who dont want to lose something they spent hours or days going after. Plus it would be against their Dr.'s orders because of the increase in blood pressure that is associated with the adrenalin rush of actual excitement.

That's why games like WoW and GW2 exist, so people like that have somewhere safe to play.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Jonoku

It's turning into a flame war of course, using the word hardcore players are bitching about games not being what it use to be of OPvP. Like I said before, read my previous post, we can talk about this for a thousand years and not agree or make no progress of agreement.

We can always say that players that hate getting ganked bitch about it. Solution: Leave the game/join a pve server. Simple as shit really.

They do...and the OPvP servers are the smallest and OPvP games dwindle to niche status.

nowadays, PvP servers aren't worth mentioning because the quality of it is just terrible nowadays(so just say all the servers are pve basically). Some company will be smart enough to bring the quality back just takes time, majority are still waiting on that quality sandbox game, not to bring sandbox vs themepark discussion up either, just an example of bringing it back.

Originally posted by mastersomrat
Because most of the time PvP in a game a lvl based.  PvP should always be skill based.

in SWG, it was all skill, do you want to toggle or not your choice. depends on the game/server.

Originally posted by ZigZags

Most people are cry babies and casuals who dont want to lose something they spent hours or days going after. Plus it would be against their Dr.'s orders because of the increase in blood pressure that is associated with the adrenalin rush of actual excitement.

 

That's why games like WoW and GW2 exist, so people like that have somewhere safe to play.

 

This is the reason many do not want to play opvp.  Why play with people that resort to name calling and degrading others.  Someone that believes excitement can only be found in their entertainment.  With players like this I am happy they can go off to their own games and leave the rest of us alone.  Where they can stroke their epeens and voice their insults in a chat with no one listening to them.

I like open world PvP, but I also realize that enough people will behave in poor conduct if given the chance that the fun may get ruined rather easily for the average player.

For example. in Asheron's Call when you ported anywhere there was a good chance on Darktide (ffa pvp server) that you would pop out the other side getting attacked by some yahoo that was just waiting nearby.

In Lineage I've gotten tales recanted of people intentionally harassing entire cities to torment new/low level players.

In WoW before the honor system and other stuff people used to camp out more by Tarren Mill and Lakeshire s groups of max levels waxing lowbies. Higher level players show up and they split, leaving a rogue behind to watch for a while until the competition leaves, then go back to work harassing people.

Like I mentioned elsewhere, games have an added dimension of challenge with competitive play because of the aptly named Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (GIFT, courtesy of Penny Arcade). Accountability is at a low to nonexistant point in games and people don't seem to have any qualms leaving respect behind as a result. I mean look at some of the responses people make here. Some people launch into sarcasm and derision the instance the thing they prefer is attacked.

The problem this causes makes a very difficult situation to overcome when one desires PvP because they are faced with a very tough situation.

They can make a system that offers PvP within strict rules, so as to avoid as many of the ways it can be abused against major cossections of players.

Or they can make it open and trust the same community ro regulate tiself, which rarely works out due to the aforementioned GIFT.

Now I'm sure one can claim examples and instances of this not exactly being true. Moments where a game like Lineage 2 might have an ok self policed location or people being able to beat back some gankers effectively. However, those are also fair to be called exceptions to the rules, not the standard.

Now, I'm generally ok with PvP. My largest gripe with WoW when it first came out was...well I wasn't fond of the game in general but for this I'll note that I never regarded the PvP servers as true PvP. They were normal servers with RvR. Poorly implemented RvR at that. This would be my DAoC talking though.

One of my early experiences in WoW's PvP though was, like many I'd could venture to assume given chat at the time, getting ganked a good few times while trying to level in early zones. That didn't particularly stop me from playing as I had moments I properly enjoyed. Like when I was playing my paladin and a hunter tried ganking me on the way to southshore. He was higher level than me, but a bad player. and I ended up saving myself from dying and chasing him halfway across that zone to kill him because he kept trying to escape me after the failed gank. I really appreciated that moment.

But I also knew that was not a normal moment. That hunter wouldn't have been out trying to gank people like me if he thought it was a challenge. That was obvious enough by him freaking out and trying to run away.

Also I see someone saying to just get a group, guild, or friends to help when you get ganked. I have to clarify that while that can solve some situations, it's always temporary and it's not always something can or will happen. Other people aren't available 24/7. I frequently play with people on the opposite side of the world because of my schedule. If I'm off hours for them then I am down a guild. If I want to get my fridns to help they have to also not be busy. Even if others are on and playing, they are not necessarily available to help. So all in all it's a copout to just tell someone it'll be ok if you just have people, because it won't. It will situationally be ok sometimes.

The rest of the time you have to realize you rolled on a server that lets people harass you and accept it or find something else to do for a while.

And that tends to be the point of contention. When one person's entertainment is forcing other people to not be entertained. It hapens in PvE as well as PvP and ties straight back to that GIFT problem. If given the means, someone somewhere will be looking for a fun way to ruin someone else's day.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by ZigZags

Most people are cry babies and casuals who dont want to lose something they spent hours or days going after. Plus it would be against their Dr.'s orders because of the increase in blood pressure that is associated with the adrenalin rush of actual excitement.

 

That's why games like WoW and GW2 exist, so people like that have somewhere safe to play.

 

This is the reason many do not want to play opvp.  Why play with people that resort to name calling and degrading others.  Someone that believes excitement can only be found in their entertainment.  With players like this I am happy they can go off to their own games and leave the rest of us alone.  Where they can stroke their epeens and voice their insults in a chat with no one listening to them.

Some people hate drama, nothing against them. For example, some elite guild vs elite guild who's better then who, obviously no matter what you say, the member of one of the elite guilds wlll always say their guild is better, never ending discussions which produce drama.

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Jonoku

It's turning into a flame war of course, using the word hardcore players are bitching about games not being what it use to be of OPvP. Like I said before, read my previous post, we can talk about this for a thousand years and not agree or make no progress of agreement.

We can always say that players that hate getting ganked bitch about it. Solution: Leave the game/join a pve server. Simple as shit really.

They do...and the OPvP servers are the smallest and OPvP games dwindle to niche status.

This is the truth they do not want to see.   It's a niche preference, and will lead to smaller games and communities.  I personally have no problem with it:  I simply stay away.   As do lots of others.   There is a malignant minority of PvPers who come to these sorts of games to make other people feel bad.  Not interested in spending time with those folks.

I have played a lot  of miniatures, board, and wargames face to face.   But in those, I get to choose the people I prefer to play with.  I do the same for online games.

Originally posted by Jonoku

Originally posted by Horusra

Originally posted by Jonoku

It's turning into a flame war of course, using the word hardcore players are bitching about games not being what it use to be of OPvP. Like I said before, read my previous post, we can talk about this for a thousand years and not agree or make no progress of agreement.

We can always say that players that hate getting ganked bitch about it. Solution: Leave the game/join a pve server. Simple as shit really.

They do...and the OPvP servers are the smallest and OPvP games dwindle to niche status.

nowadays, PvP servers aren't worth mentioning because the quality of it is just terrible nowadays(so just say all the servers are pve basically). Some company will be smart enough to bring the quality back just takes time, majority are still waiting on that quality sandbox game, not to bring sandbox vs themepark discussion up either, just an example of bringing it back.

I am for sure but not with OWPvP and I don't think the two are synonymous.  There are plenty of games, outside of fantasy MMOs, that provide ways to build without the need for someone else to tear it down.  In the end one side has the same chance of convincing the other and visa-versa.

IMO the best way to ensure both have equal stay is to have them share the same big gameworld in pockets or regions.  Allow natural dynamics to appear with the changing story of the world where you have the freedom to PvP or not as you will.  I think it would work.

The simpliest answer is often the most accurate sometimes (imo) and that would be, because a human player always loses in PvP.

Ask yourself, what is the difference between PvP and PvE? 

Getting ganked by a player? Dying because you  are low HP and and you pull aggro or have a mob spawn on you?

There is almost a perfect mirror to PvP and PvE repleasing a mob with a player or the other way around and the  same situation can still occur.  Popular PvE games such as WoW have even added PvE mobs designed only to gank players not paying attention. (Fel-Reaver was it? WOW:BC and storm gaint? WoW:WotLK)

No one likes dying repeatedly in PvE.

No one likes dying repeatedly in PvP.

If you are losing you most likely aren't having fun. (not always true if you are a good sport but really.... honor and all that good stuff along with sportsmanship has been long dead to the majority)

PvE players can hide behind griefers as a scapegoat if they so please but are the first to complain when their raids/dungons are impossible to beat. [mod edit]

Originally posted by Clocksimus

The simpliest answer is often the most accurate sometimes (imo) and that would be, because a human player always loses in PvP.

Ask yourself, what is the difference between PvP and PvE? 

Getting ganked by a player? Dying because you  are low HP and and you pull aggro or have a mob spawn on you?

There is almost a perfect mirror to PvP and PvE repleasing a mob with a player or the other way around and the  same situation can still occur.  Popular PvE games such as WoW have even added PvE mobs designed only to gank players not paying attention. (Fel-Reaver was it? WOW:BC and storm gaint? WoW:WotLK)

No one likes dying repeatedly in PvE.

No one likes dying repeatedly in PvP.

If you are losing you most likely aren't having fun. (not always true if you are a good sport but really.... honor and all that good stuff along with sportsmanship has been long dead to the majority)

PvE players can hide behind griefers as a scapegoat if they so please but are the first to complain when their raids/dungons are impossible to beat. Mobs pwning you? You mad?

I'm not gonna lie, if a developer came up with a system where a mob stalked you and waited until you were low on health to start attacking I would be impressed.

Originally posted by TheScavenger
I personally really  like open world PvP games. I remember going to Durotar, and tricking people to turn on their PvP and killing them over and over and over. This was a PvP server btw, but the low level zones were "safe" areas...but like EVE, nowhere is safe. It was hilarious the rage I would get in both chat and private messages lol...was so worth it :D

^ this is called griefing....

Originally posted by Aelious

Originally posted by Clocksimus

The simpliest answer is often the most accurate sometimes (imo) and that would be, because a human player always loses in PvP.

Ask yourself, what is the difference between PvP and PvE? 

Getting ganked by a player? Dying because you  are low HP and and you pull aggro or have a mob spawn on you?

There is almost a perfect mirror to PvP and PvE repleasing a mob with a player or the other way around and the  same situation can still occur.  Popular PvE games such as WoW have even added PvE mobs designed only to gank players not paying attention. (Fel-Reaver was it? WOW:BC and storm gaint? WoW:WotLK)

No one likes dying repeatedly in PvE.

No one likes dying repeatedly in PvP.

If you are losing you most likely aren't having fun. (not always true if you are a good sport but really.... honor and all that good stuff along with sportsmanship has been long dead to the majority)

PvE players can hide behind griefers as a scapegoat if they so please but are the first to complain when their raids/dungons are impossible to beat. Mobs pwning you? You mad?

 

I'm not gonna lie, if a developer came up with a system where a mob stalked you and waited until you were low on health to start attacking I would be impressed.

[mod edit] Mobs already have stealth it would take a few lines to script that mob to aggro you but  not attack untill you are flagged in combat and follow you untill you break his leash range.  It is possible just hasn't be trolled yet but give it a year blizzard just might do it for kicks.

Originally posted by Clocksimus

Originally posted by Aelious

Originally posted by Clocksimus

The simpliest answer is often the most accurate sometimes (imo) and that would be, because a human player always loses in PvP.

Ask yourself, what is the difference between PvP and PvE? 

Getting ganked by a player? Dying because you  are low HP and and you pull aggro or have a mob spawn on you?

There is almost a perfect mirror to PvP and PvE repleasing a mob with a player or the other way around and the  same situation can still occur.  Popular PvE games such as WoW have even added PvE mobs designed only to gank players not paying attention. (Fel-Reaver was it? WOW:BC and storm gaint? WoW:WotLK)

No one likes dying repeatedly in PvE.

No one likes dying repeatedly in PvP.

If you are losing you most likely aren't having fun. (not always true if you are a good sport but really.... honor and all that good stuff along with sportsmanship has been long dead to the majority)

PvE players can hide behind griefers as a scapegoat if they so please but are the first to complain when their raids/dungons are impossible to beat. Mobs pwning you? You mad?

 

I'm not gonna lie, if a developer came up with a system where a mob stalked you and waited until you were low on health to start attacking I would be impressed.

So I take it from that statement you are saying you don't like PvP because other players  are smarter than you? (If someone is able to sneak up on you low HP then yes you've been out witted) Mobs already have stealth it would take a few lines to script that mob to aggro you but  not attack untill you are flagged in combat and follow you untill you break his leash range.  It is possible just hasn't be trolled yet but give it a year blizzard just might do it for kicks.

Nope but saying there is something wrong with a players skill or "hardcoreness" if they don't want OWPvP is about the only angle you have.  Some people just like don't like PvP 24/7 and there is nothing wrong with that.

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 

Because it is pointless?

 

Take Rift as an example since you mentioned it. If 3 guys ran up and started to attack me while I qas questing/hunting I simply did the dance emote while they killed me, went back to my spawn point, paid a couple of silver to get rid of the penalty and went back on my way. What did they gain and what did I lose? Nothing at all.

 

Now let's say you add a serious penalty to dying so open world PvP can really cause some havoc. Well then people just won't play the game. When people want to log in to get some quests done but can suffer serious consequences when some guy and his 5 friends pop out and kill him, he gets frustrated that his gaming time was wasted and that he is now worse off then when he logged in and he quits the game.

Well, you are arguing several things here.

First of all I think you are correct (in the bit I edited out) that most people want to pvp when they are in the mood.

Having said that, it's not pointless to the people who buy into the system. I would add the caveat that the game designers "should" then build in components that add to the greater game so that the act of 3 guys hitting you leads up to something.

So in the first example, in Lineage 2, that would create bad blood and a clan war. Maybe even one side getting allies and removing the opposing clan from their castle. That creates conflict and that isn't pointless.

In the second example I would say that the "victim" was either in the wrong game or on the wrong server.

The problem with these arguments is that they always tacitly assume that the defender "somehow" ended up in a game where he/she had no idea that their was open ffa pvp and then gets surprised and gets killed.

I can only name one game that had pvp where it wasn't clear at launch the extent of the "open" part and that is Aion. Only because they kept trying to market the "you can concentrate on the parts you like". They never said you would still have to endure the parts you didn't like.

But heck, Lineage 2 was my first ever mmo and I had no intent on staying more than a day or two. I just wanted to see what an online game was about. I did my due dilligence, found out all the horrors and that cemented what was to be my "limited experience".

and 4 1/2 years later I could proudly say it was the best online game experience I ever had.

Anybody who is claiming to be a victim of ffa pvp either never paid attention, isn't brightest bulb in the set, was naive to think they would "never" get attacked or just tried the game on a lark without any research. Or is looking for something to complain about.

Becuase the majority of them are very clear about ffa pvp. And the people who want/like ffa pvp are looking for these rare games.

The solution? Don't play games/servers that don't offer you an experience you will be happy with.