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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » PVP and PVE in MMOs, yay or nay.

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97 posts found
  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

 
OP  9/23/12 10:00:41 AM#1

I'm asking the question because we have seen time and time again that games that feature both PVE and PVP rarely do both right. 

It seems that whenever a MMORPG tries to do both, it ends up neglecting one or the other, which is unsurprising as the two stand in a somewhat oposite place (one is directly competitive with other players while the other is cooperative).

Thats not to say that cooperative-competitition doesn't exist (for example high level competitition in raiding), but its not the same competition that dominating other players directly ingame is.

Now i enjoy both PVP and PVE, but rarely do I enjoy it in the same game.

Do you think the remedy would be to create separate, more niche games instead of trying to be everything for everyone?

Would you like to see more

PVE Centered Games (no pvp whatever)
PVP Centered Games (no PVE whatever))
Both PVP and PVE (a mix)
(login to vote)

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1831

"I shall take your position into consideration"

9/23/12 10:07:48 AM#2

I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

 
OP  9/23/12 10:11:30 AM#3
Originally posted by coretex666

I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

  exdeathbr

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/10/05
Posts: 126

9/23/12 10:12:26 AM#4
Originally posted by AdamTM

Do you think the remedy would be to create separate, more niche games instead of trying to be everything for everyone?

YES, YES, YES, YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Imagine someone is creating a book, he was what you and your 3 friends what you want in a book and then create a book for you and those friends. Now imagine he do the same thing but asking 10000 guys what book you think will be better. The first one obviously. I am not saying you wont like the second one but the first one will be better.

Niche games is the future, and I am not talking only about niche games only to hardcore comunity, but to the carebear one, to the normal gamers one, to casual ones.....

  Mike-McQueen

Novice Member

Joined: 10/30/05
Posts: 248

9/23/12 10:18:12 AM#5
Both are great when done right. That said I'm still waiting for someone to get it right.

I'm a unique and beautiful snowflake.

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1831

"I shall take your position into consideration"

9/23/12 10:30:06 AM#6
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by coretex666

I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

You have PVE and PvP servers.

I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7520

9/23/12 10:35:10 AM#7
Both if you want to play in a virtual world,, andnot some hodge podge of parts glued together. Leaving one out is even worse.
  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7484

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

9/23/12 10:37:59 AM#8

Role based PvE based play for me in the long run.

I don't need PvP polluting my MMORPG... If I want to enjoy that I go to a FPS game that does it well and is actual fun.

 

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

 
OP  9/23/12 10:42:45 AM#9
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by coretex666

I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

You have PVE and PvP servers.

I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.

To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)

Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.

Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC. 

Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.

Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.

etc.

How long have you been playing WoW?

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

 
OP  9/23/12 10:48:20 AM#10
Originally posted by bcbully
Both if you want to play in a virtual world,, andnot some hodge podge of parts glued together. Leaving one out is even worse.

A virtual world can have rules that do not encompass PVP or PVE.

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

9/23/12 11:00:51 AM#11

Are there many that offer only one of the two?

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  rivetman13

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 38

9/23/12 11:03:57 AM#12

just take PVP out. Most people who really want PVP are just gank clowns. I like the member who said when they wanna PVP they just go to a FPS where it is done right and fun.

PVP is difficult to do fairly in any MMO where there is progression. PVP servers are flat out lame in my opinion and just a constant looking over your shoulder for the guy 50 levels above you gankfesk. I'll pass.

My 12 yr old nephew PVPs in WoW, it's a joke. You can be a pvp guru or a complete n00b and if your team can somehow pull it off, you get the win. Youtube + wowcrendor for a funny take on how silly it can get. Little to no skill is involved in PVP, but, I guess thats kinda how its supposed to be, cant make it even, fair fights, it would make the gankers get ganked.

 

Happily the PVP crowd is a minority in MMOs

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

9/23/12 11:04:36 AM#13

I went with both. I love PvP and like PvE. What I would like to see is more PvP centered around the world instead of becoming a seperate game in instanced BG's/Warzones/Arena etc. Something like L2 did with there world bosses/flagging system. 

A full blown criminal system for reds like myself would be nice, give us the risk/reward for being red again like in some of the older games. Hopefully ArcheAge can deliver on this, if they can ever friggin deliver the game to the west. 

And what the guy above me said about PvP being a minority is a very stupid comment. Its actually about 50/50. If it came down to choice between the two there would be a lot of people like myself that would of strictly chose PvP. But most PvPers enjoy a little bit of PvE as well which is why we play MMO's instead of MOBA's. And since MOBA's are more popular than MMO's I would go on to assume that PvPers are actually more then PVEers. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

 
OP  9/23/12 11:31:54 AM#14
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Are there many that offer only one of the two?

 

 

There are a few but usually experimental games with either low production values or major flaws in other areas.

For example DDO had no PVP at all up untill Module 3.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2511

World > Quest Progression

9/23/12 12:10:26 PM#15
Both IMO as long as you don't differentiate between the two in development. There shouldn't be specific gear or abilities that pertain only to one or the other. It comes down to up front design.

The other part is The world created for it. Themepark tailor fit worlds have a hard time having both unless it's one rule set or another because every square inch is needed for progression. If you create a world that is spread out, like VG for instance, you can have regions and warfronts between factions that PvPers are drawn to and an equal amount of strictly PvE (with flagging) regions both offering the same amount of content progression, OW bosses, dungeons, etc.

In most games PvP has been tacked on to what seems to be PvE centered games. Is hard to host both? Maybe but not impossible if to design the world for it.
  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

9/23/12 12:23:37 PM#16

i think you need mostly pve with a touch of integrated pvp.

reds, gankers and asshats need to be utilized not segregated. They are, by their very nature, dynamic content.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/23/12 12:27:43 PM#17
You can have both right in the same game. Daoc and gw2 spring immediately to mind.

Wow most certainly doesn't, wow is a raid grinder with tacked on half arsed pvp.
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2511

World > Quest Progression

9/23/12 12:34:26 PM#18
Rungard

I see what you're saying but if you look at gankers as criminals, PvEers as victims and regular PvPers (using gankers as dynamic content) as police you still have a victim first. Better to put all the criminals in the same space as all the police :)
  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1831

"I shall take your position into consideration"

9/23/12 12:39:04 PM#19
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by coretex666

I went with both. I like PVE and PvP in WoW.

EDIT: So that I believe it can be done well in one game.

Yes but you can't deny that PVP takes a back-seat to PVE in WoW, no matter if you like it or not.

PVP is an afterthought in the design of the game, WoW is at heart a PVE game with tacked on PVP features just like EVE is a PVP game with tacked on PVE features.

Why do you think so? I do not claim you are wrong. I just play WoW on regular basis and I do not feel that PVE is so overwhelming.

You have some dungeons, raids, quests on the PVE side and BGs, arena (2v2, 3v3, 5v5), rated BGs, OWPvP, battles (e.g. Tol Barad) on the other side.

You have different type of gear for each activity. You have different spec for each activity (not necessarily, but you do have abilities/talents that have more utilization in PVE or PvP).

When you decide to do PvP, you have similar queues, so that it is not more time consuming to get involved in PvP.

You have achievements for both, PVE and PvP.

You have PVE and PvP servers.

I am just wondering what makes you think that PvP takes a back-seat.

The whole game is balanced/designed around PVE.

To do PVP you have to do PVE first (PVP doesn't give progression)

Talents/abilities are PVE centred and the Frost Mage is the single most persuasive argument for it.

Blizz tried to mitigate the problems with dual-specs and the new talent trees but it still worked out the same way it was before, a frostmage in a raid is mostly not useful, unless you need a lot of trash AOE-CC. 

Then they tried to mitigate that by designing encounters/ballance with their new mantra "bring the player not the class" so they homogenized most classes.

Every time blizzard does something to PVE ballance it fucks their PVP ballance and vice versa.

etc.

How long have you been playing WoW?

Since day 1 :D

Why would you have to do PVE first? You get exp for doing PVP, you get currency to purchase PVP gear from PVP. All you need to do is to get first several levels, so that you can PVP. Since like level 10, you can progress all the way to max level and max PVP gear solely by doing PVP.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Purutzil

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 2905

The Critical Hit Pretzel!

9/23/12 12:41:06 PM#20

I prefer PvE but I like PvP mixed in. It makes things more fun. Then again, I'm also the type that enjoys putting gankers in their place which I tend to have lots of laughs doing in many games.

 

Straight PvE just eventually gets boring and its fun to have a bit of conflict, though I will say I am completely against Free PvP where its everyman for itself. Its a breeding ground for griefing and absolutely nothing good.

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