Trending Games | ArcheAge | Neverwinter | WildStar | World of Warcraft

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,821,778 Users Online:0
Games:731  Posts:6,216,994
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Does every MMO have to have a raid-or-die endgame?

2 Pages 1 2 » Search
21 posts found
  SwampRob

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/07
Posts: 1010

 
OP  9/22/12 8:59:13 AM#1

PvP aside.  

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

 

Edited to clarify:

Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "if you don't group up at endgame, you don't progress in PvE"?   

 

 

 

*Sorry about the large font, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

9/22/12 9:02:56 AM#2
Originally posted by SwampRob

PvP aside.  

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

 

 

 

not every MMO is raiding for endgame.. many yes but hardly all so not sure what your point is

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Onomas

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/11
Posts: 1160

Sandbox is your only hope for a decent mmo ;)

9/22/12 9:06:08 AM#3

Thats why i like sandbox over themepark anyday of the week. Themeparks are nothing more than glorified console rpg games with limited content, social abilities, and end game. Sandboxes offer so much more, yet many hate them due to stereotypes and misconceptions of open world pvp and other bogus things. Yet complain in every themepark thread that the game sucks because there isnt anything to do. I dont get this community.

 

Oh an not every mmo has these raids ;) SWG though many disliked the NGE, i didnt mind it so bad and played since day one til 6 months before closing. But in that game and 7+ years i never got bored nor did I sit around waiting for content to happen. We amde our own content ;) Older sandbox games with tons of features that kept you busy and active outgun any new age mmo.

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5337

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

9/22/12 9:10:51 AM#4

if i have mmos A,B,C,D and E and all do the same thing, same progression (lvl 1 to cap), and same endgame approach, why would i have 5 mmos to choose from? I would stay with only 1, the one who made them better and smoother.

gear grind raiding endgame should never be mandatory. Thats the easy way out for developers and its something to think about specialy if theres a sub.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  NobleNerd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/08/08
Posts: 447

Try not!Do or do notThere is no try.

9/22/12 9:16:49 AM#5
Trion for Rift has more than just raiding for content at end game. They have some story driven adventures also for people to get gear and rewards. Also most games have good pvp content at end game. But like in WoW you pay a price to pvp until you get better gear (which is a huge frustration!). Imo Trion has made the biggest attempt, in MMOs I have played, to take out the raid or die mentality. I wish more MMO developers would pay attention to the many players that enjoy the story driven part of what it means to be an RPG otherwise it is just an MMO. 
  Hell_Hammer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/21/12
Posts: 75

9/22/12 9:19:04 AM#6
Originally posted by rojo6934

if i have mmos A,B,C,D and E and all do the same thing, same progression (lvl 1 to cap), and same endgame approach, why would i have 5 mmos to choose from? I would stay with only 1, the one who made them better and smoother.

gear grind raiding endgame should never be mandatory. Thats the easy way out for developers and its something to think about specialy if theres a sub.

 

Come to think of it, what really made me dislike the gear grind was the fact that I was at the same time paying for it. It felt mandatory not only in-game but out of it as well.

I'm paying for this, I gotta make the most of this month and get as many item improvements as I can! And that makes it feel like a second job, not something that I'm looking for in a game.

I do admit that there must be better ways to do endgame except gear grind, but I don't think I'd mind gear grinding if I could do it at my own pace, without the pressure of subscription fees expiring.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12108

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

9/22/12 9:20:54 AM#7
Originally posted by SwampRob

PvP aside.  

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

No, and not every MMO does. The raiding endgame is one of the many band-aids to put on the broken level-based system that has been carried over from PnP games. Raiding just shifts the level grind to a gear grind with in each level. It's the result of a greater problem. Fix the other problem and raiding becomes one of many options instead of the most palatable of two objectionable options.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

9/22/12 10:19:04 AM#8
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by SwampRob

PvP aside.  

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

No, and not every MMO does. The raiding endgame is one of the many band-aids to put on the broken level-based system that has been carried over from PnP games. Raiding just shifts the level grind to a gear grind with in each level. It's the result of a greater problem. Fix the other problem and raiding becomes one of many options instead of the most palatable of two objectionable options.

 while i complete agree with you here, you probabally wont like my fix to it, as it involves limited open world pvp. players are the content, its just a matter of making it palatable to most players.

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13283

9/22/12 12:24:15 PM#9

The reason raiding endgames are so common is not that game developers have the delusional idea that everyone loves raiding endgames.  It's because the alternative to having a bad endgame is having no endgame at all, which would basically tell many players, "Congratulations, you've beaten the game.  Now you should cancel your subscription and go play something else."  Raiding epics are a carrot on a stick that get quite a few players to keep their subscription active even after they rationally ought to quit.

The basic idea of an endgame is that it needs to be something that takes minimal development time to implement, but keeps players busy for a long time.  Raids fit that perfectly, and many of the common raid gameplay decisions are focused on making it take longer to play through raid content.  That's why a bunch of people have to go on a raid, but only a few get loot, so that everyone has to repeat it a bunch of times.  It's also the reason for raid lockouts.

  Myria

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 534

9/22/12 12:58:57 PM#10
Originally posted by SwampRob

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

First,  if you honestly think "EVERY" MMO is raid-based then you haven't played very many.

Second, define "raid-or-die".

Third, how does it not make sense in a multiplayer game to have the best content be, well, multiplayer?

I really don't get the whole whining about raiding thing, it just makes no sense to me. In WoW or Rift you don't *have* to raid, in point of fact a lot of people don't and are perfectly content. Nor does not raiding mean you have nothing to do and no gear progression.

I never stepped in a raid for the entirety of BC and had a fantastic time -- part of why I don't play WoW now is how far it has gotten from what BC was -- and had a near continuous progression path that ended the expac within a few percentage points of most raiders of the same class. I didn't have to have the best-of-the-best, I was happy with what I was doing and the progression available to me.

In the old days raid-or-die was a PvP thing, but now in most games you can aquire good PvP gear (in many cases, sadly, even BiS PvE gear) from PvP, so the phrase really doesn't have much meaning. Raid-or-envy, I suppose, but the notion that somehow all games are raid-centric and you have to raid or gtfo is a load.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/22/12 1:23:38 PM#11
Games I've played that aren't raid or die.

Eve
Daoc
Planetside
City of heroes
Wow before they hired all them EQ guys
Guild wars
Guild wars 2
Perpetuum
Darkfall

Some of those are themepark so its not a sandbox vs themepark thing

There are also games with no raids, that I haven't included them as they have dungeon grinding endgame instead, which is essentialy the same thing.
  SwampRob

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/05/07
Posts: 1010

 
OP  9/22/12 2:03:49 PM#12
Originally posted by Myria
Originally posted by SwampRob

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

First,  if you honestly think "EVERY" MMO is raid-based then you haven't played very many.

Second, define "raid-or-die".

Third, how does it not make sense in a multiplayer game to have the best content be, well, multiplayer?

I really don't get the whole whining about raiding thing, it just makes no sense to me. In WoW or Rift you don't *have* to raid, in point of fact a lot of people don't and are perfectly content. Nor does not raiding mean you have nothing to do and no gear progression.

Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

Once the leveling stops, acquiring better gear is the only means of meaningful progression in almost any MMO.    I recognized the logic in having multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.

My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "don't group up at endgame, don't progress in PvE"?    Please show me some MMOs that allow you to acquire BIS gear without forcing you to group to do so.

*Sorry about the large font, my eyes aren't what they used to be.

  Pilnkplonk

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/10
Posts: 1566

9/22/12 2:08:39 PM#13
The OP has obviously been living under a rock for the past couple of years. The forums are awash with "fanbois" and "haters" duking it out over GW2's endgame which does not feature anything resemblng raids.
  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5968

9/22/12 4:04:39 PM#14
Originally posted by SwampRob

PvP aside.  

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

This thread isn't intended to be about preferences.   I'm trying to understand why every MMO developer feels it's utterly mandatory that their endgame is made this way.    Maybe it is mandatory and I'm just stubborn?   If it must be this way, someone please explain to me why, and why no other way would ever work?

 

Edited to clarify:

Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "if you don't group up at endgame, you don't progress in PvE"?   

 

 

 

this is my theory.

take a game like GW2.

it has a slow grindy feel to leveling ,especially with the new limits in place.

You simply CAN NOT have a MMO with long, featture restricitve ,grindy,  leveling mechanics

while at the same time OFFERING NOTING DIFFERENT ABOUT WHAT PLAYERS DO AT ENDGAME AS THEY DID FOR THE LEVEL GRIND.

this quickly bores people because everything seem like "Been There, Done That for 79 levels..."

proper Endgame in this situation is giving players something NEW to look forward to. Not just reskin of events and hearts. This is why Endgame Raiding been a success over the years, because it gives players something NEW to experience that they never could while doing their level grind.

 

Remove the Level grind, and this mindset wouldnt be the case anymore.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18952

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

9/22/12 4:24:58 PM#15
Originally posted by SwampRob
Originally posted by Myria
Originally posted by SwampRob

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

First,  if you honestly think "EVERY" MMO is raid-based then you haven't played very many.

Second, define "raid-or-die".

Third, how does it not make sense in a multiplayer game to have the best content be, well, multiplayer?

I really don't get the whole whining about raiding thing, it just makes no sense to me. In WoW or Rift you don't *have* to raid, in point of fact a lot of people don't and are perfectly content. Nor does not raiding mean you have nothing to do and no gear progression.

Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

Once the leveling stops, acquiring better gear is the only means of meaningful progression in almost any MMO.    I recognized the logic in having multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.

My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "don't group up at endgame, don't progress in PvE"?    Please show me some MMOs that allow you to acquire BIS gear without forcing you to group to do so.

What did you plan to do with that great gear once you got it.  Most games provide you new gear to either help you succeed in later raid centric content, or it is used to advance your power in PVP.

I guess you might be saying you want to get the great new gear to do new solo content, but in a themepark that form of advancement has to wait for expasions where they can add new lands/levels to progress your character.

Just wondering what exactly you think you want them to give you.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Lethargic_Synapse

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/09/12
Posts: 67

Played: UO, EQ, EQ2, WoW, AoC, DNDO, Aion, FFXI, LOTRO, RoM, DCUO.

9/22/12 5:16:24 PM#16
Originally posted by SwampRob
Originally posted by Myria
Originally posted by SwampRob

I'm simply tired of every, and I mean EVERY MMO being perfectly content to let players solo to the endagme, and then it's raid-or-die.   That is to say, "We the devs don't care how much you enjoy soloing.   Now that you're at the level cap, group up or wave goodbye to item progression."

First,  if you honestly think "EVERY" MMO is raid-based then you haven't played very many.

Second, define "raid-or-die".

Third, how does it not make sense in a multiplayer game to have the best content be, well, multiplayer?

I really don't get the whole whining about raiding thing, it just makes no sense to me. In WoW or Rift you don't *have* to raid, in point of fact a lot of people don't and are perfectly content. Nor does not raiding mean you have nothing to do and no gear progression.

Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

Once the leveling stops, acquiring better gear is the only means of meaningful progression in almost any MMO.    I recognized the logic in having multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.

My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "don't group up at endgame, don't progress in PvE"?    Please show me some MMOs that allow you to acquire BIS gear without forcing you to group to do so.

I'm not certain this is the case, but are you asking for a solo path to the same gear as raids?  That just wouldn't be fair to the raiding community, to be honest.  Raids take coordination.  There's also always crafting, which is quite time-consuming...  Wait til endgame to start and make some BoP gear.  

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this, but why play MMORPGs if you just want to solo forever?  That seems kind of counter-productive.  I'd also find it quite boring after awhile, but everyone has different tastes.

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

9/22/12 5:41:16 PM#17
Plink:

Gw2 doesn't have raids in the wow sense

It does have raids in the daoc / coh sense though, but their not "or die" in those 3 games
  Darkmoth

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/12
Posts: 175

9/23/12 12:44:29 AM#18
Originally posted by SwampRob

Perhaps I should have said "group up or give up on meaningful progression".

Once the leveling stops, acquiring better gear is the only means of meaningful progression in almost any MMO.    I recognized the logic in having multiplayer content in a multiplayer game.

My point is, do all MMOs have to follow the rule of "don't group up at endgame, don't progress in PvE"?    Please show me some MMOs that allow you to acquire BIS gear without forcing you to group to do so.

Pretty sure you can get BIS gear solo in Guild Wars I.

  JimmyYO

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 541

9/23/12 12:51:57 AM#19

Every MMO has to have a sizable endgame if it doesn't want to get trampled by WoW. The proof is in the last decade, people are already abandoning GW2 in droves just to "prepare" for MoP to come out.

It doesn't HAVE to be raiding but it has to be endgame thats for certain.

  syntax42

Elite Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1102

9/23/12 1:13:48 AM#20

I think this is another case of players and developers taking things too far.  Players who want to solo and see everything in the game should not be playing a multiplayer game at all.  Developers expect people to team up and perform activities, but they took things too far when raids required the coordination of many people who had only soloed their way up to that point.

 

The best MMOs I have played gradually introduce you to grouping without forcing it upon you.  City of Heroes could be one good example.  You could solo your way to the level cap if you wanted to.  Afterwards, progression could be earned through soloing, or you could earn it slightly faster through grouping with a few other people.  I'm referring to currencies and enhancements, for those familiar with the game.  Eventually, progression required a group with the Incarnate system, though I remember the developers' intent to allow much slower solo progression if desired.

 

Guild Wars 2 seems like it might be the same.  I haven't reached 80 yet, but it seems like group content is encouraged and optional at the same time.  They may introduce some content that requires grouping to advance later, or make a system that also allows soloing to advance along the same lines.

2 Pages 1 2 » Search