Originally posted by adam_nox
There's no real exploration in this game.  It's a joke to think otherwise. Finding random hidden caves isn't exploration.  Exploration is where you find the meat of character progression without any guidance.  Exploration requires choice, but you don't really have any.  You go where it's level appropriate.

SO if I used this logic, as soon as I got to a level that was higher than the zone, it isn't my choice to complete the map and maybe climb that mountain that has no annotation that there is anything up there? I guess we can agree that we disagree on what we define exploration as.

noun Exploration

1. an act or instance of exploring  or investigating;examination.

2. the investigation of unknown regions.

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by FlawSGI

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by FlawSGI

TO TLDR comment, it's only wrong if you choose to butcher the game this way and then turn around and claim it is a design flaw. 

Honestly, that took longer than I thought.

I wasn't trolling or being negative BTW. I was honestly responding to the your comment and not generalizing my own post. My post was an honest answer and if you meant the butcher portion of that quote then I don't knwo what to tell you because if anyone cuts out as much as you have from any game that's exactly what I'd call it. Not negative, it is what it is. You also quoted as I  added the last portion. I didn't go back and edit it after reading this.

I second what he is saying here.  He isn't saying your playing wrong, he is saying that, no matter what the game is, if you choose not to do all the content available you will level slower than those that utilize all of it. 

In forums, we shouldn't be so quick to label things.  It's like those people that get a new game and play it looking for everything that is wrong with it.  They will most definitely find everything wrong with the game.

That comment regarding leveling is wrong though. If you can keep doing a certain form of content and that form is more efficient than other forms, then you can skip content and still level faster than those who do not skip it.

Originally posted by adam_nox
There's no real exploration in this game.  It's a joke to think otherwise. Finding random hidden caves isn't exploration.  Exploration is where you find the meat of character progression without any guidance.  Exploration requires choice, but you don't really have any.  You go where it's level appropriate.

There's no exploration in any sandbox game then. You can't go where the mobs are stronger than you before you get your skills and equipment up properly either. Try take your freshly rolled character in UO to kill a dragon, or even just a lich... and enjoy your naked ghost trip.

Seriously...

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by adam_nox
There's no real exploration in this game.  It's a joke to think otherwise. Finding random hidden caves isn't exploration.  Exploration is where you find the meat of character progression without any guidance.  Exploration requires choice, but you don't really have any.  You go where it's level appropriate.

There's no exploration in any sandbox game then. You can't go where the mobs are stronger than you before you get your skills and equipment up properly either. Try take your freshly rolled character in UO to kill a dragon, or even just a lich... and enjoy your naked ghost trip.

Seriously...

 This. 

Either you're locked out of areas by being one shotted by everything, or the area is simply closed because you have not completed a certain story element or chapter, checkpoint whatever.

It's standard practice in almost any game.

Originally posted by Zekiah
Themepark hand-holding doesn't mesh with the exploring-type gamer.

i am an explorer and i absolutely loved skyrim and the witcher. with that said I love gw2 because it does have explorer elements in it. There are surprises and things to be found if you poke around and look for them. hidden caves, hidden treasure chests, hidden bosses, hidden DE's. In order to find them you need to make it a habit to talk to npcs and to inspect things, not just aim for zone completion.   

Originally posted by gessekai332

Originally posted by Zekiah
Themepark hand-holding doesn't mesh with the exploring-type gamer.

i am an explorer and i absolutely loved skyrim and the witcher. with that said I love gw2 because it does have explorer elements in it. There are surprises and things to be found if you poke around and look for them. hidden caves, hidden treasure chests, hidden bosses, hidden DE's. In order to find them you need to make it a habit to talk to npcs and to inspect things, not just aim for zone completion.   

This made me think of that cave in Harathi Hinterlands where you feel like you are one of the Goonies finding One Eyed Willies ship. Man that was a lot of fun. If that's not adventuing I don't know what to say. No alert sending you to the cave, a puzzle to open the door, traps and hoops to jump through to find the area, and more puzzles to get to the chest. This little adventure kept me up an extra hour after I expected to log off at the waypoint near there. Good times....

Originally posted by gessekai332

Originally posted by Zekiah
Themepark hand-holding doesn't mesh with the exploring-type gamer.

i am an explorer and i absolutely loved skyrim and the witcher. with that said I love gw2 because it does have explorer elements in it. There are surprises and things to be found if you poke around and look for them. hidden caves, hidden treasure chests, hidden bosses, hidden DE's. In order to find them you need to make it a habit to talk to npcs and to inspect things, not just aim for zone completion.   

Interesting. I find moving from heart to heart, instance to instance, level zone to level zone a bit on the boring side. Ok, a lot. And trying to figure out how to jump your way to hidden overlooks for completion tasks doesn't interest me either.

Just more of the same: Collect X, Return Y, Find Z

That's not adventure, it' quest-grinding, just like the rest of the themeparks. These games are boring and the more people play them the more they'll get bored too.

It's time to think outside the Skinner Box IMO.

Originally posted by FlawSGI

Originally posted by gessekai332

Originally posted by Zekiah
Themepark hand-holding doesn't mesh with the exploring-type gamer.

i am an explorer and i absolutely loved skyrim and the witcher. with that said I love gw2 because it does have explorer elements in it. There are surprises and things to be found if you poke around and look for them. hidden caves, hidden treasure chests, hidden bosses, hidden DE's. In order to find them you need to make it a habit to talk to npcs and to inspect things, not just aim for zone completion.   

This made me think of that cave in Harathi Hinterlands where you feel like you are one of the Goonies finding One Eyed Willies ship. Man that was a lot of fun. If that's not adventuing I don't know what to say. No alert sending you to the cave, a puzzle to open the door, traps and hoops to jump through to find the area, and more puzzles to get to the chest. This little adventure kept me up an extra hour after I expected to log off at the waypoint near there. Good times....

That puzzle is a favorite - that's where I take guildies who weren't aware there was that kind content in the game :)

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by FlawSGI

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

Originally posted by FlawSGI

TO TLDR comment, it's only wrong if you choose to butcher the game this way and then turn around and claim it is a design flaw. 

Honestly, that took longer than I thought.

I wasn't trolling or being negative BTW. I was honestly responding to the your comment and not generalizing my own post. My post was an honest answer and if you meant the butcher portion of that quote then I don't knwo what to tell you because if anyone cuts out as much as you have from any game that's exactly what I'd call it. Not negative, it is what it is. You also quoted as I  added the last portion. I didn't go back and edit it after reading this.

I second what he is saying here.  He isn't saying your playing wrong, he is saying that, no matter what the game is, if you choose not to do all the content available you will level slower than those that utilize all of it. 

In forums, we shouldn't be so quick to label things.  It's like those people that get a new game and play it looking for everything that is wrong with it.  They will most definitely find everything wrong with the game.

That comment regarding leveling is wrong though. If you can keep doing a certain form of content and that form is more efficient than other forms, then you can skip content and still level faster than those who do not skip it.

I can see your point.  I guess what I should have said is that if you cut out half the ways to gain xp, you are limiting yourself to ways to gain xp.  For example, if I do a DE within a heart quest, chances are high that I will gain xp from the DE and the heart quest.  If I avoid heart quests and stay away from them, I will miss out on that opportunity. 

There are single ways to gain xp and I am sure one of those ways provides the most xp gain over the others, however combining multiple ways tend to provide the highest xp return.

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I've been playing for about a week and a half now because I decided I needed to at least get some first-hand experience before I continue trolling the fanbois.

But here's the thing: I decided before starting (just like in every other game), how I want to play the game. I was educated on the systems well enough to know what I could and couldn't do, as well as what I would and wouldn't do.

I made up my mind that I would be an explorer: travelling the world, seeing the sights, and doing the "dynamic" events. That's it. No hearts, no mob grinds, no dungeons and no crafting (until later, I do enjoy crafting, in general).  Now, I understand that I'm cutting off half or more of the game, but those are the things I want to do. The hearts just annoy the crap out of me. Call me a purist or backwards thinker, but I want to know WHY you want me to do stuff. I've mentioned before that the auto-quest hearts bug me.

Now then, I started out and it took me a bit to find a character that I could get into (third time's the charm). Once I got out of the starting instance with this guy, I set out into the world and explored and looked for DEs. First thing to get out of the way: I like the DEs. I loved the PQs in WAR, and these are just as fun (I prefer how these de-spawn rather than auto-reset ot first phase). However, I'm not leveling up the way I think I should. I'm not asking to have levels given to me, but I've done a crap-ton of DEs (several more than once) and I can't progress as an explorer because the mobs are one-shotting me when I head to vistas and PoIs. I've gotten a few equipment upgrades from mob drops while doing DEs, but at this rate, I'll have the same level 5 drops when I hit level 20.

Should I be grinding the DEs to progress? I've heard that you get penallized for doing so, but most of them are neat enough that I wouldn't mind doing so. I guess I was under the impression that there would be enough DEs to make that a viable leveling option.

 

Also, what is the point of exploring if everything I can see is already on my map. There is no reason to go to a far-off corner fo the map when I already know there is nothing there. I would much rather not have the icons or at least not have them show up until a scout points them out to me. I know, I know: "turn off your map and don't use it, blah, blah, blah". I like having a map, I just don't like it to be pre-marked.

So, (mods forgive me) TL;DR: as an explorer, am I playing this game the right way?

First thing's first.  As you admitted, you are intentionally ignoring a good portion of content.  As such, you have to expect this will have consequences.  Namely, experience, gear, and gold will be more difficult to come by.  The starting zones are designed in such a way that if you complete the entire map, including heart quests and your personal story, while doing all the events you naturally come across on your journey, you will reach the appropriate level to enter the next zone.  Heart quests, unfortunately, are also your best source of early level money.  They also unlock the only karma vendors available to you at early levels, which offer you good gear upgrades.  If you ignore them, you will miss out on this stuff. 

That said, I do have a couple suggestions that could help.  The first is that many events often occur near heart NPCs.  Completing the event from start to finish will usually naturally complete the heart quest as well.  This will effectively double the exp reward of the event, gives you bonus gold, and opens up a karma vendor for gear.  I'm sure you must have already completed some hearts in this way.  It's almost impossible not to.   My second suggestion, especially as an explorer, is to explore your way to another starting zone and do extra events there to add some flavor.  Because if you do just sit in one starting zone to grind events, that's exactly what it will become: a grind.  You will have to repeat many events to get the necessary experience.  The Sylvari and Asura starting zones are adjacent to each other.  The Norn and Charr are also close.  The journey from a human zone to another starting zone would be perilous for sure, but an explorer should be up for a challenge.  I've done it myself in the betas. 

Since you said you like crafting, I'll add that crafting provides really good exp.  Less so at the earliest levels, but it increases big time as you get higher up in the profession.  If you keep up with your craft to make new gear for yourself evertime you reach a level that is a multiple of 5, you'll start to get a full extra level each time.    

That's the thing, there is a reason to venture to the far off corners of the maps because there are usually several hidden things that are not marked on the maps at all.  These range from jumping puzzles, to hidden bosses that guard chests, to lore based monuments and NPC interactions.  Sometimes I get so caught up in running for map objectives that I actually stop paying close attention to my surroundings.  I know I've missed many hidden things on maps that i've 100% completed before that I've caught the 2nd time around. 

Once you get past the starting zones, there are several zones available to level in.  Between the personal story, crafting and running through zones, I usually find that I quickly outlevel the zones I wanted to complete.  But, of course, that's with doing hearts as well and getting map completion rewards. 

Also, in the very high levels, there are no hearts.  It's all events all the time. 

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

I've been playing for about a week and a half now because I decided I needed to at least get some first-hand experience before I continue trolling the fanbois.

But here's the thing: I decided before starting (just like in every other game), how I want to play the game. I was educated on the systems well enough to know what I could and couldn't do, as well as what I would and wouldn't do.

 

I made up my mind that I would be an explorer: travelling the world, seeing the sights, and doing the "dynamic" events. That's it. No hearts, no mob grinds, no dungeons and no crafting (until later, I do enjoy crafting, in general).  Now, I understand that I'm cutting off half or more of the game, but those are the things I want to do. The hearts just annoy the crap out of me. Call me a purist or backwards thinker, but I want to know WHY you want me to do stuff. I've mentioned before that the auto-quest hearts bug me.

 

Now then, I started out and it took me a bit to find a character that I could get into (third time's the charm). Once I got out of the starting instance with this guy, I set out into the world and explored and looked for DEs. First thing to get out of the way: I like the DEs. I loved the PQs in WAR, and these are just as fun (I prefer how these de-spawn rather than auto-reset ot first phase). However, I'm not leveling up the way I think I should. I'm not asking to have levels given to me, but I've done a crap-ton of DEs (several more than once) and I can't progress as an explorer because the mobs are one-shotting me when I head to vistas and PoIs. I've gotten a few equipment upgrades from mob drops while doing DEs, but at this rate, I'll have the same level 5 drops when I hit level 20.

Should I be grinding the DEs to progress? I've heard that you get penallized for doing so, but most of them are neat enough that I wouldn't mind doing so. I guess I was under the impression that there would be enough DEs to make that a viable leveling option.

 

Also, what is the point of exploring if everything I can see is already on my map. There is no reason to go to a far-off corner fo the map when I already know there is nothing there. I would much rather not have the icons or at least not have them show up until a scout points them out to me. I know, I know: "turn off your map and don't use it, blah, blah, blah". I like having a map, I just don't like it to be pre-marked.

 

 

So, (mods forgive me) TL;DR: as an explorer, am I playing this game the right way?

That is where you are wrong.  Its not only in the corners of the map but often times they are hidden in plain site with jsut a small bit of jumping or exploring involved.  Hidden Caves and other places where you might find a chest being guarded by a champion or vetern mob.  The places are there and they are not part of the achievement system either.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by FlawSGI

Originally posted by gessekai332

Originally posted by Zekiah
Themepark hand-holding doesn't mesh with the exploring-type gamer.

i am an explorer and i absolutely loved skyrim and the witcher. with that said I love gw2 because it does have explorer elements in it. There are surprises and things to be found if you poke around and look for them. hidden caves, hidden treasure chests, hidden bosses, hidden DE's. In order to find them you need to make it a habit to talk to npcs and to inspect things, not just aim for zone completion.   

This made me think of that cave in Harathi Hinterlands where you feel like you are one of the Goonies finding One Eyed Willies ship. Man that was a lot of fun. If that's not adventuing I don't know what to say. No alert sending you to the cave, a puzzle to open the door, traps and hoops to jump through to find the area, and more puzzles to get to the chest. This little adventure kept me up an extra hour after I expected to log off at the waypoint near there. Good times....

That puzzle is a favorite - that's where I take guildies who weren't aware there was that kind content in the game :)

It's like Lions Arch, most people don't know there are 3 jumping puzzles in LA.  Everyone sees the one because of the vista.  The other two require more exploration.  Each of them are hinted at by NPC's.  One would be very hard to stumble on.  and it is near the mystic forge where alot of people go.  :)

If you look at  the achievements for exploring there are 39 puzzle achievements.  They are not marked an any map.  I would suggest those interested in exploring, to work on those.  Supposeldy one takes you to the floating castle.

Originally posted by SteeJanz

It's like Lions Arch, most people don't know there are 3 jumping puzzles in LA.  Everyone sees the one because of the vista.  The other two require more exploration.  Each of them are hinted at by NPC's.  One would be very hard to stumble on.  and it is near the mystic forge where alot of people go.  :)

If you look at  the achievements for exploring there are 39 puzzle achievements.  They are not marked an any map.  I would suggest those interested in exploring, to work on those.  Supposeldy one takes you to the floating castle.

O... M... F... G...

Well, there goes my weekend

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by SteeJanz

It's like Lions Arch, most people don't know there are 3 jumping puzzles in LA.  Everyone sees the one because of the vista.  The other two require more exploration.  Each of them are hinted at by NPC's.  One would be very hard to stumble on.  and it is near the mystic forge where alot of people go.  :)

If you look at  the achievements for exploring there are 39 puzzle achievements.  They are not marked an any map.  I would suggest those interested in exploring, to work on those.  Supposeldy one takes you to the floating castle.

O... M... F... G...

Well, there goes my weekend

It is pure hearsay.  So I hope I didnt get your hopes up.  There isn't anything official about.  Just alot of interesting stuff the town folk say.

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by Stx11

Originally posted by SteeJanz

It's like Lions Arch, most people don't know there are 3 jumping puzzles in LA.  Everyone sees the one because of the vista.  The other two require more exploration.  Each of them are hinted at by NPC's.  One would be very hard to stumble on.  and it is near the mystic forge where alot of people go.  :)

If you look at  the achievements for exploring there are 39 puzzle achievements.  They are not marked an any map.  I would suggest those interested in exploring, to work on those.  Supposeldy one takes you to the floating castle.

O... M... F... G...

Well, there goes my weekend

It is pure hearsay.  So I hope I didnt get your hopes up.  There isn't anything official about.  Just alot of interesting stuff the town folk say.

Good to know... yeah I already spent a good hour or so running around that Village.

One day... one day I will make it up there /shakes fist at ANet

Originally posted by WhiteLantern

 

 

 

So, (mods forgive me) TL;DR: as an explorer, am I playing this game the right way?

Yes and no... If you want to level solely through exploring, then you need to cycle through the zones...

So if I were you I would do my exploration for each of the 5 cities, that will give you a bit of starting cash and should get you some levels(not sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if you started at lvl 2 and finished it around lvl 7 or 8 from exploring the cities, maybe higher). Then you go outside. For level 1-15, you have queensdale, ashford plains, metrica province, caledon forest, and the area outside hoelbraak(don't remember the name). Just doing the exploration and DEs from those 5 zones will probably get you over lvl 15... If you can stomach the heart quests as well, you should be able to do it easily(because you get a huge xp boost, some coin, and some items from getting 100% of hearts, POIs, waypoints, and skill challenges in a zone).

Regarding the heart quests, You say you want to know WHY you are doing it.

If you go and talk to the heart NPC, they will explain what they are doing and why they want you to do X, Y, and Z. There usually is a reason for it. Personally I do some and don't do others... Until I hit max level, and now I've been going back, reading what the NPCs have to say, and banging out the hearts because I want my 100% completion.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by gessekai332

Originally posted by Zekiah
Themepark hand-holding doesn't mesh with the exploring-type gamer.

 I love gw2 because it does have explorer elements in it. There are surprises and things to be found if you poke around and look for them. hidden caves, hidden treasure chests, hidden bosses, hidden DE's. In order to find them you need to make it a habit to talk to npcs and to inspect things, not just aim for zone completion.   

Interesting. I find moving from heart to heart, instance to instance, level zone to level zone a bit on the boring side. Ok, a lot. And trying to figure out how to jump your way to hidden overlooks for completion tasks doesn't interest me either.

Just more of the same: Collect X, Return Y, Find Z

That's not adventure, it' quest-grinding, just like the rest of the themeparks. These games are boring and the more people play them the more they'll get bored too.

It's time to think outside the Skinner Box IMO.

You are your own worst enemy. Turn off the map hints and just wander... never hit the "M" key and you might be much happier. You are not "playing it wrong" but you are getting out exactly what you put in friend.

---

Originally posted by SteeJanz

---

Originally posted by Stx11

---

Originally posted by SteeJanz It's like Lions Arch, most people don't know there are 3 jumping puzzles in LA.  Everyone sees the one because of the vista.  The other two require more exploration.  Each of them are hinted at by NPC's.  One would be very hard to stumble on.  and it is near the mystic forge where alot of people go.  :) If you look at  the achievements for exploring there are 39 puzzle achievements.  They are not marked an any map.  I would suggest those interested in exploring, to work on those.  Supposeldy one takes you to the floating castle.

---

O... M... F... G... Well, there goes my weekend

---

It is pure hearsay.  So I hope I didnt get your hopes up.  There isn't anything official about.  Just alot of interesting stuff the town folk say.

---

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Zekiah

Originally posted by gessekai332

Originally posted by Zekiah
Themepark hand-holding doesn't mesh with the exploring-type gamer.

 I love gw2 because it does have explorer elements in it. There are surprises and things to be found if you poke around and look for them. hidden caves, hidden treasure chests, hidden bosses, hidden DE's. In order to find them you need to make it a habit to talk to npcs and to inspect things, not just aim for zone completion.   

Interesting. I find moving from heart to heart, instance to instance, level zone to level zone a bit on the boring side. Ok, a lot. And trying to figure out how to jump your way to hidden overlooks for completion tasks doesn't interest me either.

Just more of the same: Collect X, Return Y, Find Z

That's not adventure, it' quest-grinding, just like the rest of the themeparks. These games are boring and the more people play them the more they'll get bored too.

It's time to think outside the Skinner Box IMO.

You are your own worst enemy. Turn off the map hints and just wander... never hit the "M" key and you might be much happier. You are not "playing it wrong" but you are getting out exactly what you put in friend.

Playing a game the way it's not supposed to be played? That doesn't interest me either. There's very little incentive to fight your way through areas. Exp sucks from basic kills, monsters spawn too fast, it's just boring. It's easier and more palatable to avoid areas completely.

It's not me that's the problem, it's the game. You obviously like the same Themepark-ish grind but I've played this same game over and over for years. It might be a "better" themepark of recent but it's still the same old boring themepark content.  

I just started playing Borderlands 2 and found "exploring" much more fun in that game. At least there's a chance I could find a nice chest loaded with rare guns vs. a "rich" mineral vein or a silly jump quest.