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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » X-post from Reddit: You are all destroying the MMO genre, and you don't even know why you act the way you do.

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144 posts found
  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2530

9/20/12 2:36:10 PM#121
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
Those are the true facts.

 

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 


Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

 

Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

Here's an excerpt from Televsion subscriber losses, I'll let you find your own articles and research:

 

But this quarter's losses were stark for DirecTV, which lost customers for the first time ever and for Time Warner, who lost customers for the tenth straight quarter and lost more than analysts expected. Comcast's loss of 169,000 customers was actually an improvement over previous quarters.

 

You can also find reports on how networks changed their programming due to loss of profitability margins on high end shows. You'll find information on how CBS decided to not follow that trend and keep putting out high cost higher quality shows. It is the most watched network on televsion as an added emphasis on how people do want good television and not reality TV.

 

Here is an excerpt about movie problems, again I'll let you find your own sources:

 

I hope you’re sitting down, because I have some difficult news to share: Almost everyone hates going to the movies. After cinema attendance hit at 16-year low last year, a new study has found that only 3% of U.S. consumers consider moviegoing “a frequent source of entertainment.” Is this news as bad as it seems? And if so, what can be done about it?

Maybe the most depressing thing about the survey in question is that it’s really easy to imagine why movies have fallen so dramatically in popularity (Two years ago, 28% of people rated moviegoing as a frequent source of entertainment, to give you an idea of just how sharp the decline is). After all, going to the movies is both expensive and, often, not that fun of an experience; bad crowds, bad seats and bad movies can all end up ruining the night out. When you start to think about all of the variables that can make moviegoing a less than optimal way to spend your time, suddenly alternative plans become much more attractive.

 

Hopefully with all of the layoffs, company shut downs, game shut downs etc. I don't really have to go get you excerpts about how the MMO genre isn't doing well, isn't meeting expectations, and how some companies have said there is no future in MMOs and do not want to put any money into developing new ones.

Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

You're that guy, ok. You are correct. People love all television, especially reality television, that they have cancelled their service in order to stop themselves from watching to much TV. It was just too good and they couldn't control themselves.

 

People went to the movies less and less because they decided movies were too good and made the rest of the world seem so sad and pathetic that they forced themselves to stop going.  The 13 years also stops any economic downturn reasoning so what else could it be? Clearly it is that movies are too good.

 

Several game studios have been shut and more downsized along with games shut down permanently because, well they were too good and it wasn't fair to the competition.

 

You are correct. The entertianment industry is making products that are just SO GOOD, that people have to force themselves to use them less. It is definetly, in no way shape or form, that the products are subpar and people are fed up. Never accept logical lines of thought as those are the seeds of the devil.

That guy?  I am that guy because I question your "facts"?

You are the person who made those grandoise claims for the reasons TV and film tickets are down.  I've asked you to cite sources and you have danced around the issue.

Unless you are going to provide evidence for your "facts", don't call them facts.

I'd take your own advice in your last line there.

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  ChrisReitz

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/07
Posts: 127

9/20/12 2:47:28 PM#122

If you dont like a mmorpg and you notice that a hand full of people dont like it and keep making the same threads over and over again. Im sure you will get the hint soon enough and ill help you out with it. If you dont like the game. Then by all means dont play it. Im sure the majority of people are tired of most of you saying im bored... ( I would be bored too if i had over 200 hours in a few weeks on a new game... Go outside by all means actually get a job)

 

I dont like the pvp ( Maybe you should not play the pvp then.. Im sure the 85 percent of people who do like it will play it for you... Waste of space anyway where someone else could get on the server...)

 

I made it to 80 I dont have anything to do other then twiddle my thumbs and look at the screen. (I'm sure you havent got 100 percent in every area. Maxed all of your crafts. Got all of your achievements and got that cool dungeon looking armor. Just cause you beat the story line doesnt mean the game is over.)

 

They nerfed my fav dungeon and gave it less reward cause I was speed cleaning it and making 5 gold a hour or more... They actually made it harder.. (boo hoo? Im sure the makers didnt want you to do that they are the gods I will say this again cause I like saying it. If you cant adapt to it then leave. We wont miss you and we will forget about you.)

 

The dungeons are to hard. (Maybe move around more use diff skills attack the same target as everyone else. Other people are doing it im sure you can too.)

 

 

 

I got banned cause I made a rude name and I also got banned cause I was buying and saleing stuff higher on the marketplace or farming a area.. (maybe some of you did and that sucks but most of you were doing other things you werent suppose to and your name was cruel. It probably offended someone you should have gotten banned for it. Dont remember M for mature infront of the page anywhere lol heh)

 

I crash alot when Im around people in pvp 15 mins into the game ( Well maybe you should turn down your settings or maybe get a new pc. That hamster in the middle of your pc is getting tired and dying)

 

 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4890

9/20/12 3:14:17 PM#123


Originally posted by MindTrigger

Originally posted by GeezerGamer OP's mad because GW2 didn't live up to the hype
Nothing is living up to anyone's hype anymore.  Actually GW2 is *the best* of the current themeparks in my opinion.  It's not a game changer though, and they will find themselves in the same situation as all the other themeparks on the market.  Running to WoW or another themepark isn't going to solve the problem.

We had all hoped GW2 would be more, but I think it has become just about all any pure themepark can be and they did a great job doing it.  What else can be done to a themepark?  You can argue they should have stuck with the trinity, or gone to some four-class system, but the rest of the game is what it is unless they start adding sandbox features.

Show me an upcoming themepark game that is a vast improvement over GW2 or anything before it.  They all function basically the same and people are bored with it.


The reason people are bored with Theme parks is because they (games not players) move to fast.

For example Back in TBC, I had started the long quest chain that took me through dungeons and culminated in a 5 man group quest boss kill.
The reward was Sunfury Leggards.
Those legs served me well into the game and I didn't replace them for quite some time.
They were not epic and in fact were quested blues.

The quest chain was for the most part pretty epic and well worth doing. Such a chain was pointless Come Wrath. Why do such a chain. Since it included dungeons anyway, why not just speed grind a few more dungeons until an epic set drops or until I can earn enough badges to buy a tiered set?

This is only one example where we are pushed through too fast. WTF do you think is gonna happen? Yeah we are going to burn through it. But who's fault is that? People bitch about TBC having too much of a grind, but it also made us slow down and consume the content at a pace.

And while I see people saying you have to slow down and take GW2 at a pace, the mechanics of the game say the opposite. Otherwise, we'd have never seen level 80s while the game was still in head start. But that same advice can be given to WoW or Rift or any MMO. "You leveled too fast, you did it wrong and short changed yourself"

It's not US, the players, that are to blame here.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3296

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/20/12 7:34:14 PM#124


Originally posted by Calerxes
It urks me when people whinge that something isn't what they want but do not have the intelligence to look outside the mainstream world to see if it exists there they think but whinging enough a company will throw 100 million at a My Little Pony sandbox FFA PvP game. I would also argue that tradition RPG's in the past were always niche compared to some of the subgenres especially ARPG's like the behemoth Diablo and therefore never really in the AAA world. 

Now I see where you're coming from. And yes, MMO players do this quite often, myself included. I guess some MMO players wish they were "niche" again :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Vynt

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/04
Posts: 599

9/20/12 7:57:54 PM#125
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
Those are the true facts.

 

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 


Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

 

Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

Here's an excerpt from Televsion subscriber losses, I'll let you find your own articles and research:

 

But this quarter's losses were stark for DirecTV, which lost customers for the first time ever and for Time Warner, who lost customers for the tenth straight quarter and lost more than analysts expected. Comcast's loss of 169,000 customers was actually an improvement over previous quarters.

 

You can also find reports on how networks changed their programming due to loss of profitability margins on high end shows. You'll find information on how CBS decided to not follow that trend and keep putting out high cost higher quality shows. It is the most watched network on televsion as an added emphasis on how people do want good television and not reality TV.

 

Here is an excerpt about movie problems, again I'll let you find your own sources:

 

I hope you’re sitting down, because I have some difficult news to share: Almost everyone hates going to the movies. After cinema attendance hit at 16-year low last year, a new study has found that only 3% of U.S. consumers consider moviegoing “a frequent source of entertainment.” Is this news as bad as it seems? And if so, what can be done about it?

Maybe the most depressing thing about the survey in question is that it’s really easy to imagine why movies have fallen so dramatically in popularity (Two years ago, 28% of people rated moviegoing as a frequent source of entertainment, to give you an idea of just how sharp the decline is). After all, going to the movies is both expensive and, often, not that fun of an experience; bad crowds, bad seats and bad movies can all end up ruining the night out. When you start to think about all of the variables that can make moviegoing a less than optimal way to spend your time, suddenly alternative plans become much more attractive.

 

Hopefully with all of the layoffs, company shut downs, game shut downs etc. I don't really have to go get you excerpts about how the MMO genre isn't doing well, isn't meeting expectations, and how some companies have said there is no future in MMOs and do not want to put any money into developing new ones.

Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

You're that guy, ok. You are correct. People love all television, especially reality television, that they have cancelled their service in order to stop themselves from watching to much TV. It was just too good and they couldn't control themselves.

 

People went to the movies less and less because they decided movies were too good and made the rest of the world seem so sad and pathetic that they forced themselves to stop going.  The 13 years also stops any economic downturn reasoning so what else could it be? Clearly it is that movies are too good.

 

Several game studios have been shut and more downsized along with games shut down permanently because, well they were too good and it wasn't fair to the competition.

 

You are correct. The entertianment industry is making products that are just SO GOOD, that people have to force themselves to use them less. It is definetly, in no way shape or form, that the products are subpar and people are fed up. Never accept logical lines of thought as those are the seeds of the devil.

That guy?  I am that guy because I question your "facts"?

You are the person who made those grandoise claims for the reasons TV and film tickets are down.  I've asked you to cite sources and you have danced around the issue.

Unless you are going to provide evidence for your "facts", don't call them facts.

I'd take your own advice in your last line there.

I think you failed to see his correlation. When the majority of television were dramas and comedies, ratings were high. Then reality tv got popular. More reality shows were put out, less dramas and comedies, ratings drastically went down. The channels that kept dramas and comedies in place of the new cheaper poorer reality shows had MUCH better ratings than all the rest. Poorer ratings due to reality tv caused people to unsubscribe. That is all fact. If the majority of tv that became reality shows was so great, people would not be leaving in droves.

As far as movies, that is an even easier correlation to see. People don't pay to watch crap. Well they do, but they will spend less to watch it. When better movies were coming out, people paid and saw them. Movie revenue has been decreasing year after year because... the majority of movies have been crap! Sure there are still good ones and they make a lot of money because people are desperate for a quality movie.

  shava

Novice Member

Joined: 3/09/05
Posts: 279

9/20/12 9:29:11 PM#126

Oddly, I made more or less this flame on The Escapist last night.

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.388694-Star-Wars-The-Old-Republic-Begins-Cutting-Servers#15568999

In part I said:

 

It's pandering like this that is killing the game industry. The rabid fans just circle like a pool of piranha, buy a game, tear it to bloody tatters comparing self-involved notes, and then go to the next game. But at the same time, they want brilliant AAA next gen graphics and design that cost millions, in a hit driven industry, and they won't pay past buying the box, because they hold every title in contempt -- it's the fashion that the press encourages and whips up.

While a majority of gamers who don't participate in online forums would probably want to play the game and enjoy it, the money men see the bloody shreds, panic, see mass migrations, and shut things down. The more cautious introverted players have learned not even to buy a game for six months.

Well, the industry can't afford it forever. Good luck to you. I'm pretty much retired at this point, and no one is going to fire me for saying it, but the fans are killing the games because they would rather find fault, and the producers are killing the games because they will panic and pull out because they don't understand the business or the fans, and the devs kill the games because they think they are there to design games and don't have to learn the business and legal bits to educate the fans or the producers to create an environment that will actually allow them to give you games you will actually enjoy.

In a few years, there's going to be nothing but little dinky indy games on your mobiles, Zynga, EA, and the F2P Asian mills, and every one of them is going to be using neuromarketing to nickel and dime you to death. And all you will be doing is jumping one F2P game to the next paying to win to get to end game, carrying guilds with you, if you have money -- and grinding little commercially sponsored f2p games with friends in one place if you don't. It'll look a lot like Cory Doctorow's FTW. The art and story will be incidental if present. Something the marketing people will throw in as a competitive edge. Window dressing.

Emo idiots. And you will probably all dismiss me as an old fart with no sense of humor. But you remember this in a few years. Hell, you won't. You can't remember past the next "ooo shiny."

We're freaking doomed.

  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 872

9/20/12 10:19:25 PM#127
It is NOT the player that asked for tredmill based progression on MMOs. The expectation of a tredmil gear grind comes from a WoW mentality. There was post made here many years ago about WoW being more grindy than any of the old school MMOs because of the tredmil that never ends. It really wasn't taken seriously at the time that this would be the end of MMOs as we know it. Somehow, games changed from being a journey as the means to its own end to the game doesn't start until endgame when you begin the gear grind tredmil. If people are ever going to see a change in the way MMOs are made and played they are going to have to reject themeparks like guild wars 2 and keep waiting for that sandbox.
  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

9/20/12 10:32:26 PM#128
I have a question...what is this magical sandbox content that does not involve pvp?
  Stuka1000

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 803

9/20/12 10:40:56 PM#129
Originally posted by Novusod
It is NOT the player that asked for tredmill based progression on MMOs. The expectation of a tredmil gear grind comes from a WoW mentality. There was post made here many years ago about WoW being more grindy than any of the old school MMOs because of the tredmil that never ends. It really wasn't taken seriously at the time that this would be the end of MMOs as we know it. Somehow, games changed from being a journey as the means to its own end to the game doesn't start until endgame when you begin the gear grind tredmil. If people are ever going to see a change in the way MMOs are made and played they are going to have to reject themeparks like guild wars 2 and keep waiting for that sandbox.

I agree with this completely.  I do not want to turn this into another Themepark Vs Sandbox debate but much of what made MMO's of the pre-WoW era a success is now missing from the current breed.  90% of modern MMO player have been raised on a diet of themeparks and have never experienced anything else; hell, most of them have no idea what a good MMO community is like.  They have never experienced player interdependency, player built settlements, non-combat classes, crafting that actually mattered, true exploration in a world that changed dependent on player actions, PvP that actually had a point other than getting enough points for a new bloody helmet etc.  Past games were far from perfect but a lot of that glue that bound the community together has been lost completely, we need to get it back.

  Stuka1000

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 803

9/20/12 10:43:20 PM#130
Originally posted by Ausare
I have a question...what is this magical sandbox content that does not involve pvp?

Crafting, building, creating rather than destroying, non-combat classes, politics etc.

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

9/20/12 10:47:24 PM#131
Sounds boring.
  Stuka1000

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 803

9/20/12 10:50:16 PM#132
Originally posted by Ausare
Sounds boring.

What is more boring than doing the exact same thing hour after hour to grind gear?

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

9/20/12 10:53:30 PM#133
Crafting sounds the same as raiding in that you grind mats to make that next item.

Building. What are you building? Whst is its point?

Non combat...so basically a graphical chat room...i have real bars for that.

Politics...npc politics? Remember non pvp.
  Zadawn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/10
Posts: 676

9/20/12 11:00:32 PM#134

I am mainly a pvp\pve player but i take a role playing approach to every game i play and maybe that's why i don't need the best gear and shit to have fun.I like to relate to my character,i explore,do quest and actually read the text every time.

 

I think if people would take the same approach as i when it comes to mmorpgs they would last longer.

 

i don't need the carrot,i got my character.

  Stuka1000

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/20/03
Posts: 803

9/20/12 11:11:00 PM#135
Originally posted by Ausare
Crafting sounds the same as raiding in that you grind mats to make that next item.

Building. What are you building? Whst is its point?

Non combat...so basically a graphical chat room...i have real bars for that.

Politics...npc politics? Remember non pvp.

/sigh

You are showing that you have never played a sandbox as you have absolutely no clue about them.  Just on the points you mentioned and I will use  Pre CU / NGE SWG as an example:

Crafting produced the best items in the game, better than anything that dropped as loot providing the crafter was a good one.  Items were not cookie cutter and all the same as they are in themepark games.  The best weapons in SWG required the best quality mats and a high level of skill on the part of the crafter.  Gathering the mats was done by an automated harvester if you had the ability to use them.  Some of these had to be put in very dangerous locations as this is where the mats were located.  This saw crafters hiring guards to escort them while they collected from the harvesters.

 

Building:  Cities and settlements including player owned shops, amenities, spaceport  etc.  Architect was a character class in SWG.  Other non combat classes were entertainer, medic etc.  and before you say 'boring' you would be amazed just how many people enjoyed playing these classes.  The cantinas in the cities would be full to overflowing some nights and you would be surprised how many friends you could make and deals you could strike while waiting for a medic to treat your wounds in the med centre.

 

Sandboxes require more commitment from the player than themeparks do, they do not hold your hand and guide you down a linear path.  They give you the world and the tools to live in that world and then leave you to it.

 

 

  Nilenya

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 348

9/20/12 11:12:18 PM#136
Originally posted by Anthara

This crap of blaming players for games failing its just hilarious. And the fanboys who believe in those arguments are even more ridiculous.

This guys make games, are "experts" doing so... sell milions of copys and then can't retain players.

Obviously its our fault -.-

The degree of amatourism and lack of respect for players blow away all my imagination.

Maybe when "you" guys reach my age you start to be in the people's side instead of going blind with all the fanboyism and understand that.. if games are rushed into endgame in one month ITS BECAUSE THE GAME MAKE IT POSSIBLE.

All is handed to you, fast and easy.

God bless EVE and all its fails! o7

 

wouldn't have put it quite that way, but I agree with your sentiment. The OP was superficial and uninteresting.

  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

9/20/12 11:59:30 PM#137
/sigh
Your crafting sounds like a treadmill. Not much different than raiding probably easier.

Still see little fun in your graphical chat room to make it mainstream over themepark.
  Ausare

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/11
Posts: 870

9/21/12 12:01:32 AM#138
Pve only sandbox is a graphical chat room. Most players as it stands now do nit want forced or open world pvp. I do not see these games beating themeparks with the current ideas for the mainstream.
  User Deleted
9/21/12 12:14:06 AM#139
Originally posted by Indol

1 million percent agree with this.

 

People are their own worst enemies.

 

It seems like many are more motivated by their ego and greed rather than just playing a game for fun's sake.

 

I think this is largely a result of societies competitive attitude bleeding over to wherever it can, distorting peoples perceptions.

I concur 100# with you and the Reddit poster.

 

I for one am happy as hell that there is a new, fresh and exciting MMO that takes some good old fashion grinding.  Why you ask?  Because it is fun and I dont need anyone else other then me, I am not beholden to any raid setting or elitist pricks.  I can play GW2 my way, progress at my rate, and still at the end of the day have a metric butt load of endgame activities to pursue.

  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 872

9/21/12 12:29:23 AM#140
Originally posted by Ausare
Pve only sandbox is a graphical chat room. Most players as it stands now do nit want forced or open world pvp. I do not see these games beating themeparks with the current ideas for the mainstream.

What do you think D&D was for all those years? It was just people sitting around a table talking to each other about a fantasy world they all enjoyed and were exploring together. It certainly was not about a the loot carrot or this made up term called progression. The fun was in the slow journey to the destination.

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