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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » X-post from Reddit: You are all destroying the MMO genre, and you don't even know why you act the way you do.

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144 posts found
  dave6660

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2266

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

9/19/12 7:00:04 PM#81
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
Those are the true facts.

 

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 


Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

 

Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

There is some evidence that cable subscriptions have peaked and are on the way down.  They seem to be making up the difference in profits with high speed internet access.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443792604577574901875760374.html

The movie industry is a broad term.  If we're talking about theaters then ticket sales seem flat over the past 15 years.

http://www.the-numbers.com/market/

According to TV Guide the two most popular current TV shows are talent search shows (more like game shows then reality shows).  American Idol and Dancing with the Stars.

http://www.tvguide.com/top-tv-shows

 

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

9/19/12 7:30:35 PM#82
Originally posted by Torx

by being entitled impatient kids

overused label given by those with a simple mind that likes to paint everyone in a nice little box so he doesnt have to think. Pretty much covers the entire rant you quoted.

The only thing that has changed since the creation of the early MMO game forums for AC1 and EQ1 are that there are far more people complaining...about people wanting things in game and far more people telling others they have no right or reason to ask for something in game.

There are few things more sad than a consumer that feels he, nor others have any power or rights.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2706

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/19/12 7:34:52 PM#83


Originally posted by Yamota
They might ruin it from his point of view, like from my point of view who like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online and think the current selection of MMORPGs are not all that good, but that does not make the genre ruined. 

Why many people feel "the genre is ruined" is because there is little left in the way of choices in the genre. Most of the games out now, or coming out in the future are basically the same kind of play-type. This is great if one likes that kind of gaming experience. Not so great when this is the only choice one has if they enjoy a different kind of gaming experience. Even the "old stand-bys" have changed themselves to resemble the "new fangled" games out today.

It is when a player seeks the game play experience they had years ago and find nothing (to very little) to their liking that phrases like "ruined the genre" come about. For that person, the genre truly is ruined. It is the lack of choices in the market offering different kinds of game play that sets some people over the edge.

Face it, if a person enjoys the fast paced, done with the game in 2-3 months type of game play, there are hundreds of games out there built upon that style of game play. If a player enjoys a more immersive, time-consuming style of game play, there is not much to choose from. And remember, this is just the first tier of "wants in a game" I am citing here. Then you have the myriad other "little things" that a player needs to find to fill their preferred gaming experience.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  RefMinor

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/11
Posts: 3539

Hipster

9/19/12 7:45:59 PM#84

Most people are muppets, some like the things I do, most don't. They think I am a muppet for liking what I like. Life's like that, I just try and find the things in my niche that I enjoy and screw everyone else. I play a 2d space based sandbox browser/app game at the moment with a playerbase in the hundreds and am enjoying myself immensely, the majority would hate it if they even gave it a chance.

What the OP wants is for the budget of a Hollywood summer release to be used to make the oscar winning foreign language category winner. That will only happen when the muppets star watching subtitled films.

Play the games you like, support the developers who make the games you like, the muppets who like the crap aren't the problem, they are just having simple minded fun.

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1658

9/20/12 3:21:12 AM#85
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Yamota
They might ruin it from his point of view, like from my point of view who like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online and think the current selection of MMORPGs are not all that good, but that does not make the genre ruined. 


Why many people feel "the genre is ruined" is because there is little left in the way of choices in the genre. Most of the games out now, or coming out in the future are basically the same kind of play-type. This is great if one likes that kind of gaming experience. Not so great when this is the only choice one has if they enjoy a different kind of gaming experience. Even the "old stand-bys" have changed themselves to resemble the "new fangled" games out today.

 

It is when a player seeks the game play experience they had years ago and find nothing (to very little) to their liking that phrases like "ruined the genre" come about. For that person, the genre truly is ruined. It is the lack of choices in the market offering different kinds of game play that sets some people over the edge.

Face it, if a person enjoys the fast paced, done with the game in 2-3 months type of game play, there are hundreds of games out there built upon that style of game play. If a player enjoys a more immersive, time-consuming style of game play, there is not much to choose from. And remember, this is just the first tier of "wants in a game" I am citing here. Then you have the myriad other "little things" that a player needs to find to fill their preferred gaming experience.

 

This again? how about theses COMING SOON... The Repopulation, Age Of Wulin/Wushu, Black Desert, ArcheAge, WarZ, Darkfall: Unholy Wars, Pathfinder Online, those are just off the top of my head, also you have games like Wurm, Xsyon, ATITD, EVE, Atlantica, etc.. there is a tonne of choice in the MMO sphere if you choose to look outside of the main AAA dev studio's but as ever players don't.

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1565

9/20/12 3:43:10 AM#86

Unfortunately, could not agree more on OP. But many times mentioned, more people play, more psychiatric cases do as well. Who is terribly unpolite in game, I guess is also in real life. Whinners here are also such in real life. Not sure if there is anything to do. Oh, it is, normal players trying to ignore such cases and trying to enjoy game. And trying to skip all trolling posts.

And particularly I find problematic one that like one game and then they spend entire life on various forums bashing all the rest. Or bashing all from start to end without maybe even trying. From sick satisfaction I guess they get for bashing itself.

My main games are so far in mmo swtor, wow and rift. Now new great entry is GW2 for me. I hope they all stay. As I would like for TSW, CO, City of Heroes, ....

But despite i agree with op, you still can not take off responsability to terribly bad ceo's and in general company decisions. And what is worst part ... they will put out of job army of emplyes, destroying company .... yet they will have little problem finding new maybe even better payed job.

  Adamai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 457

9/20/12 3:44:42 AM#87
Because mmo games are wow clones and a single game idea is defining the rest and whole of the industry.

I agree with your points on gamers attitude but you are describing the kind of game play that is ruining the industry. Wow was a niche market ! once a niche market is coppied multiple times, it no longer becomes niche but rather common place.

Games developers need to make more games inline with swg- eve online- daoc- and such

Did you see how i was only able to list3 diffrent games!, and might i add that only only one of them is actualydiffrent.

Games developers know wow made money and still believe that its a niche market when it ain't. Wow has seen its hay day and lots its reputation for being a niche game.


Its time for dev teams to use their imaginations again and actually design games rather than copying thingd.

The movie industry is just as bad- dc comics films- marvel comics- films after books lol. Its as if the entire world has lost its motivation and ingenuity.

All we are seeing are clones of clones of the orriginal once great idea that just happened to be a new and exciting way of making games. But guess what!!!! THOSE DAYS ARE LONG GONE AND WOW IS NO LONGER A VIABLE BASE TEMPLATE FOR NEW GAMES.

The capitsls were for any developers that may accidently find my post.
  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1421

9/20/12 3:48:40 AM#88

i really dont understand this kind of thinking. the gear treadmill in vanilla wow was fine imo. it's when purple became the new blue that the fit hit the shan.

same with grinding. the mobs used to actually fight back .. now you just aoe the bejeebus out of everything and gather all of the mats way too fast.

the industry is to blame as much if not more so for dumbing the games down to make more profit.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1565

9/20/12 3:55:18 AM#89
Originally posted by Adamai
Because mmo games are wow clones and a single game idea is defining the rest and whole of the industry.

.

And you really think all the rest of gaming population want some revolution with every game that comes out? You really expect every new car that comes out of product lines will have to be something "revolutionary"? Do you really think this is at all possible continue this way?

Remember old one, do not fix what is not broken? Or, you know, wheel have already been invented?

This is part of problem and source of all complains.

  User Deleted
9/20/12 4:15:51 AM#90

I blame people like the reddit poster for the current state, he does the same error the current developers do, and honestly it's just plain stupidity.


1. You take 1000 individual people with 1000 different oppinions totaly contradicting each other.
2. You call them "MMO Players"
3. Act like every individual of the 1000 has ALL the oppinions of 1000 people at once.
4. Complain that "MMO Players" contradict themselves and ask the impossible

Same goes for all the WOW clone creators out there who want to milk openworld pvp gamers AND pve raid instance farmers, and explorers and creators etc.


Stop trying to push everyone in the same pool, stop trying to please everyone and then you will succeed.


Besides that guy writes so much crap, he probably never played a FPS beyond herpyderp singleplayer if he thinks quake, ut, COD, and battlefield players totally agree on each other games.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6481

9/20/12 7:05:57 AM#91
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by grimal
 

Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

 I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

 

 

I will tell my son the same thing.

update - So I told him.

me-  Dig into books,

him - yeah I've been reading ____ and ____

me - yeah in the futrue books seem like the place where you'll get the most entertainment, the way TV shows and video games are being simplified.

him - Nuh uh in the future there will be hoovercrafts and stuff.

  Yamota

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6384

There's a beast within every man that stirs when you put a sword in his hand

9/20/12 7:19:46 AM#92
Originally posted by UWNVME

Yeah, I'm late to the party. But I'd just like to comment that the Reddit post quoted sums up a lot of my own feelings and I was just getting ready to say something myself.

It's really disheartening when I hear some of the complaints for GW2. Yes, the game has flaws, it's not perfect, but I'm having a blast and enjoying the game still one month later.

What really puzzles me about the complaints directed about the game, is it seems like some so-called MMO "fans" are just impossible to please. You guys hosed down games like SWTOR, Warhammer, and Rift because they were "WoW clones". So GW2 takes a new direction and shakes up the genre a bit, a complete rework of the "holy trinity" party roles, different methods for grinding levels, and a more action combat system. And then you guys complain because now it's "too different from WoW". Are you kidding me? Just give up, you will never find a game you can enjoy.

And I think there's another important message that the Reddit poster pointed out, whatever happened to simply having fun playing MMOs? Why is it that with some of you guys, it needs to be all about gear progression and if the game isn't designed around huffing and puffing on an endless loot treadmill, then its not worth the time? Lastly, please remember that gear treadmill dungeon grinding is all a Blizzard creation, you can speak of the old days of SWG and DAOC, just remember those games did not revolve around the type of endgame you wanted in GW2.

Well the thing is that GW 2 doesn't really go into a complete a new direction. It is still a ThemePark with linear progression, class based, structured, managed, casual PvP with no real consequences and removed the end game and uhm... replaced it with nothing. They have done some cool things like weapon based skills and quests and made it so that there are no pre-defined tanks, healers etc which does innovate a bit but it is a far cry from a complete rework.

Regarding your second point about progression, this is all in your heads. There are no people who just wants gear progression for the hell of it, they probably just want something to do, in the end game, which is fun and I personally dont see what is left as endgame because you have pretty much done everything worth doing, which is FUN, by the time you are level 80. So then what? Reroll? Game Over?

Also, who is saying that this game is: "too different from WoW". The only persons I have heard saying that are you fanboys, when complaining about the complainers.

  rygard49

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

9/20/12 10:22:03 AM#93
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by grimal
 

Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

 I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

 

 

I will tell my son the same thing.

update - So I told him.

me-  Dig into books,

him - yeah I've been reading ____ and ____

me - yeah in the futrue books seem like the place where you'll get the most entertainment, the way TV shows and video games are being simplified.

him - Nuh uh in the future there will be hoovercrafts and stuff.

I tried telling my son as well, but he was not very receptive to the idea:

Me - Hey dude, books are where it's at.

Him - ...

Me - Did you hear me? I'm saying if you want some decent entertainment in the future, you need to start reading.

Him - *looks the other way*

Me - Don't ignore me, I'm trying to help you out. I'm your dad, and I know things.

Him - BAAADA DA DA DA Brrrrrr DADOOO.

 

10 month olds have no respect for the written word.

  jayarte

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/09
Posts: 449

9/20/12 10:26:25 AM#94

Is it even worth saying that games and their players don't exist in a vacuum?  Trends in mmo's, whether from the development side or the players who play them, are reflections of trends in society as a whole.  

It feels very much like stating the obvious to me, but I do think that sometimes posters here seem to have tunnel vision (judging solely by their posts) in that they seem to elevate the importance of games and their players above that of simple entertainment (ie the vehemence, passion, anger etc is out of proportion to the fact that these are games). Also, games and the players are often discussed as if they exist in a vacuum separate to the rest of society.

Irks me.

  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

9/20/12 12:35:05 PM#95
Originally posted by jayarte

 

(ie the vehemence, passion, anger etc is out of proportion to the fact that these are games).

Given the time and attention (both online and off) they consume, I think that MMOs are more accurately called hobbies than games.

  Anthara

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/06
Posts: 75

9/20/12 12:48:18 PM#96

This crap of blaming players for games failing its just hilarious. And the fanboys who believe in those arguments are even more ridiculous.

This guys make games, are "experts" doing so... sell milions of copys and then can't retain players.

Obviously its our fault -.-

The degree of amatourism and lack of respect for players blow away all my imagination.

Maybe when "you" guys reach my age you start to be in the people's side instead of going blind with all the fanboyism and understand that.. if games are rushed into endgame in one month ITS BECAUSE THE GAME MAKE IT POSSIBLE.

All is handed to you, fast and easy.

God bless EVE and all its fails! o7

 

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

9/20/12 12:48:24 PM#97
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by MindTrigger
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by grimal
 

Ok, you have shown me there is a decline; that was never a point I had an issue with.  But the reasons for the decline you stated as fact, I am still waiting for the evidence behind that.

The reason for the small decline is the deepest recession for more than 60 years.

I disagree with this.  You know what sells well during hard times?  Cheap escapism.  Drugs, booze, movies, games, etc.  Movies have become repetitive boring copies of each other, and the few gems that aren't are often rewarded (unless they are too cerebral for today's population).  Same with TV shows.  How many good shows have been cancelled to make room for reality TV and other bullshit that required zero brain activity?  I told my daughter jsut today at lunch to really embrace books, because the odds are that entertainment is going to continue to be less and less entertaining for anyone with a brain.  

Don't you really know what the problem is?  I mean can't you feel it yourself? Show me one AAA mmorpg game that game out in the last seven years which is *significantly different* than WoW.  Even GW2 is mostly just very well repackaged features we've all played for several years now.  It's still just a race to level cap, and a gear grind.  There are no other features there to allow for player-driven content, or emergent gameplay at all.   Is GW2 all that different in gameplay from Rift, or SWTOR, or LOTRO, or WoW, or TSW or anything else?  The only game anyone can point to as being different is EVE, and unfortunately that game does not appeal to everyone.  The *features* do, but the setting and content don't.

 

Name me one significantly different FPS than Wolfenstein.

Name me one significantly different RTS than Command and Conquer.

Name me one significantly different Platformer than Donkey Kong.

Name me one significantly different MOBA than DOTA.

Name me one significantly different RPG than Ultima.

 

 

When a game is significantly different than it predecessors it becomes a new genre. TBS >>>> RTS >>>> MOBA. RPG >>>> ARPG >>>> MMORPG for example.

Not true at all.  EVE is an MMORPG, and it is almost completely different than other themepark games. Not just the space theme, but what constitutes gameplay and community features. SWG was an MMORPG, and looked and played nothing at all like the current games.  If you want to argue that EVE and other sandbox games are "true" MMORPG's and that themepark games have devolved to simple MMOG's (sans the RPG, emergent gameplay and community features), I'll agree with you.  I'll even agree that Sandbox and Themepark games are their own genres alltogether.  They are that different.  However, they are unfortunately lumped together on sites like this one and by the industry as a whole that insists on referring to them generally as MMORPG games.  Maybe the term MMORPG needs to be abondoned alltogther so we can move on.

 

 

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Rossboss

Novice Member

Joined: 10/26/10
Posts: 238

9/20/12 12:51:46 PM#98

What happened to the years when game companies would just make awesome games and tell us to deal with it if we didn't like it? Like how we used to do closed beta and it actually mean something aside from "free demo!" or "early start!"

 

I'm still waiting for an MMORPG where the developers actually want to play it afterwards. And not because they have to log a certain amount of hours or because they are GMs. It would be cool to see a game where the developers and producers aren't just in it for the money. It's so sad that so many games being produced have been derailed due to people complaining that it isn't easy/hard/RPG/FPS/All of the above. It's hard for us customers to enjoy something if the creator can't enjoy it just as much.

I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  Anthara

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/06
Posts: 75

9/20/12 12:54:22 PM#99
Originally posted by Rossboss

What happened to the years when game companies would just make awesome games and tell us to deal with it if we didn't like it? Like how we used to do closed beta and it actually mean something aside from "free demo!" or "early start!"

 

I'm still waiting for an MMORPG where the developers actually want to play it afterwards. And not because they have to log a certain amount of hours or because they are GMs. It would be cool to see a game where the developers and producers aren't just in it for the money. It's so sad that so many games being produced have been derailed due to people complaining that it isn't easy/hard/RPG/FPS/All of the above. It's hard for us customers to enjoy something if the creator can't enjoy it just as much.

this

  Badaboom

Elite Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2277

9/20/12 12:54:28 PM#100

I think it's a mistake to fault a minority of an MMO player base that enjoy running from game to game with a "grass is greener" type of attitude screaming doom and gloom about the game they just left.

Edit:  Keep in mind that while I did say the minority, I do think it is the majority of people on this site.

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