@ Zikari

Warhammer online: Age of Reckoning implimented the "Guard" skill for the Heavy armor/tank classes. It worked very well, I felt as a tank I was contributing to the team, by being able to gaurd one of my less armored team mates, and it suited the role of a tank.

In a game with out the trinity, peeps are right, you need to learn new tactics and work together a bit differently.

IDK about DAoC's RvR, but atm in WvW (my personal exp) most of the action is zerging.

and people complaining about how there class cant take another class 1v1, is honestly stupid..for the most part imo. PvP is team based play. if you want to win 1v1 you better off playing a FPS or fighting game >.0

Originally posted by kafka1984
Eliminating the Trinity in my experience makes it a better experience by doing away with the down-time required to LFG.

Not necessarily.  MMOs with a dungeon finder get me inside quicker than spamming chat with "LFG Story Mode" in GW2.  Tanks & Healers always got in faster, especially in WoW, and to some extent in Swtor.

Originally posted by bubaluba
If no trinity is good be sure that Blizzard would adopt this idea. They tried to create something new in gw2 but only what they did is simplification of everything.

Sorry to quote so far back but...no...removing a role then distributing it to all classes is not doing anything new...its just removing a staple role.  Also, not sure you could simplify further than what GW2 did...however we are talking blizzard so they are up against good competition for it i guess.

I don't miss the Holy Trinity. Good riddance. Finally a game got rid of it and this is only the beginning.

I don't miss it because I don't belong to the "Holy Trinity Generation". Before the concept of the Holy Trinity was ever invented or conceptualized, I was already playing RPGs and MMORPGs. We never have such a concept. So why should I miss it? I'm actually more happy and rejoicing, treating my friends and everything because we are finally starting to go back to our roots, to the original, to the best way and most fun way of playing RPGs and MMORPGs.

As one of my friend, who, mind you is a "Holy Trinity Generation", said to me after playing Guild Wars 2 "To hell with the Holy Trinity. DPS, Healer/Support, Tank can all burn in hades." And I'm glad he said that, because he's one of the many people who finally saw the light. One of the many people in his generation of gamers who was enlightened and woke up to reality.

So the real question here is: Have you played any games developed before your "'hardcore' raiding" WoW?

DO play the MMORPGs (and RPGs) before the Holy Trinity Generation were born (or started playing games). You'll see how much fun it is without the Holy Trinity. You yourself will retract what you said here that you miss the Holy Trinity, and that it is more fun with it than without.

Guild Wars 2 is simply returning the industry to its roots. And GW2 isn't the only one, the upcoming online games also got rid of the Holy Trinity. We never needed it. We don't it today. We will never need it in the future.

This is how RPGs and MMORPGs are played - no Holy Trinity.

Originally posted by Zikari

Please stay with me for a second and read my opinion before ranting solely because of the title.

First a quick history of what I played in the past. I was playing Holy Priest for most of my 'hardcore' raiding career in WoW from Vanilla till Lich King, later causally pugged as Paladin Tank for Cataclysm. I played Warrior Priest and Zelot on the Warhammer Online battlefields and cleared dungeons as Mitra Priest and later Guardian in Age of Conan. Lately I came to play The Secret World and mainly tanked during my dungeon runs, while occasionally going DPS.

Now Guild Wars 2 is my first MMO not using the Tank/Healer/DPS split as basis for it's dungeon play and honestly I am having a hard time getting used to it. Maybe that’s the wrong term, having a hard time liking or appreciating the benefits is more accurate. As others have stated in other threats, a lack of trinity does not mean you can randomly throw together any 5 players without taking their build into consideration and have a chance on success. Big problem here, most players don't seem to be aware of this, with the result that dungeon runs in pick-up groups tend to be very chaotic and unorganized

The trinity, gave players a baseline tactic to approach every situation, the players of each role knew what their job was upon entering the dungeon, send the tank to catch the mobs, make sure no one dies, kill everything, simple but yet you could build tons of fun encounters around that baseline. Now people don’t have an initial understanding what they are supposed to do. Everybody seems to fight for himself and only looks out for other to raise them up after they have been downed. Mob Aggro, while following some rules, seems to be a bit of a mystery and it doesn’t really let you prepare your skill deck before an encounter, since it is making a huge difference if all the adds and the boss are chasing you, or someone else (aggro depending on player health is a very very annoying mechanic).

There are other things to be found in the dungeons that I would consider problematic from a design perspective, trash heavy, long walks after wipes, graveyard zerging, very high health-pools for bosses and trash and barely telegraphed one-shot mechanics are the most obvious. I love the game, I love exploring, doing events and the WvW, but the dungeons so far have been more frustrating than anything else. I am not saying they are to hard, the difficulty is okay for the most part, but the gameplay is hectic and random, that makes it frustrating on failure, since it is very hard to analyse what went wrong and how to do better.

 

This lead to a series of questions that I answered myself:

 

Does the lack of trinity make looking for groups easier? - YES, definitely

Did I have more or less fun playing GW 5 man dungeons than 5 man dungeons in games with a trinity model? - LESS FUN, this is an subjective statement.

Am I having less fun because there is no trinity? - TO A LARGE DEGREE YES, the trinity enforced collaboration, while without, it is more everyone for himself, which goes against the idea of an team effort required to overcome a dungeon challenge.

Will it be more fun in a fixed group? - MOST LIKELY, my experience is based on PUG's, I am perfectly aware that a well build team will have an completely different experience.

 

What’s your take on this, do you miss the trinity in the 5 player dungeons of Guild Wars 2?

I miss the trinity as well.  I would prefer it to the current set-up.

[quote]Originally posted by sbrite10
[b][quote]Ive been waiting for this question for awhile now.People have been pineing for the end of the "Holy Trinity" for sometime.The reality is the "Holy Trinity" makes comlete sense and doesnt need to be removed from any and all future MMO's.That being siad I think GW2s implementation works as designed and I have no problem with it.Of course like you said this is all subjective.

 [/b][/quote]

No, the Holy Trinity doesn't make sense, never will. When the Holy Trinity was first implemented (no thanks to WoW), it killed the industry. We never had any form of the Holy Trinity. We play as a team, period. We play just like how we would in-real-life.

Do you tell your comrade, "hey man, tank for me okay?" Or do you shout to your field medics: "Heal me, don't just stand there, I'm a tank, you should concentrate on healing me!"

Or have you seen DPS in-real-life in history or the modern world?

That's how RPGs and MMORPGs were played. It was exponentially fun back then. But after the Holy Trinity was formulated, it killed a lot of things. It was no longer fun. That's why, personally, I was always on the look out for new games because they all are not fun. They locked themselves in some rigid roles when you don't do that in-real-life and we never have such a concept before in any games.

You're telling me right now: Hey Legolas, stay DPS, I'll tank.

The reality is, the Holy Trinity should never have been conceptualized ever. It doesn't make sense. A huge kudos to the GW2 team for getting rid of it, and a huge kudos to the other upcoming games (there are plenty) who also trashed the Holy Trinity.

We never needed it before. We don't need it today. We will never need it ever.

It is high time that we go back to how RPGs/MMORPGs should be played. The way it was meant to be. The way that is more fun, more challenging, more enjoyable, more active, more dynamic, type of RPGs/MMORPGs. No Holy Trinity = you have to use your brains all the time. You have to think. You have to adapt. You have to be a team player. You have to be flexible. In other words, you should think as if it is real-life and you are literally there fighting - fight for your survival, for your love ones, your friends, your family, for your comrades.

That's what a ROLE-PLAYING game is all about.

I miss the trinity. I think they went the wrong way. Instead of turning everyone in to utility dps, which is exactly what I was afraid of before release, and it i exactly what they did, they should have added more roles. Make it a holy tetrarchy.  I cannot stand the quest system where everyone runs around in a zerg and  no one groups.  The combat is less strategic imho than any trinity mmo.  

I'll probably still play this game from time to time because it is already paid for, if it had a sub I'd drop it like a chick carrying another man's baby.  But honestly, SWTOR will be more ineresting to me than this game when it goes f2p.

What's the next title? Surely someone can make a solid mmorpg. Oh and stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Leave me class roles,  group content, and well more content. that's what devs don't get its the content we're here for how we navigate that content is secondary, make a virtual world for us to interact in and we'll be down. Spastic wanna be PS3 combat and deeps zergs aren't all we're after.

It seems that most of the posters in this thread who don't like the trinity, aren't complaining about the mechanics, they just point to long queue times or trouble putting a group together.

Lack of initiative or patience on the player's part doesn't make the trinity bad.   

I'm really enjoying my time in GW2 but long term I know that the current, every man for himself mechanics will make it difficult to hold my attention when it comes to PvE.    PvP is a different story.

Originally posted by jcsesecuneta

[quote]Originally posted by sbrite10
[b][quote]Ive been waiting for this question for awhile now.People have been pineing for the end of the "Holy Trinity" for sometime.The reality is the "Holy Trinity" makes comlete sense and doesnt need to be removed from any and all future MMO's.That being siad I think GW2s implementation works as designed and I have no problem with it.Of course like you said this is all subjective.

 [/b][/quote]

No, the Holy Trinity doesn't make sense, never will. When the Holy Trinity was first implemented (no thanks to WoW), it killed the industry. We never had any form of the Holy Trinity. We play as a team, period. We play just like how we would in-real-life.

Do you tell your comrade, "hey man, tank for me okay?" Or do you shout to your field medics: "Heal me, don't just stand there, I'm a tank, you should concentrate on healing me!"

Or have you seen DPS in-real-life in history or the modern world?

That's how RPGs and MMORPGs were played. It was exponentially fun back then. But after the Holy Trinity was formulated, it killed a lot of things. It was no longer fun. That's why, personally, I was always on the look out for new games because they all are not fun. They locked themselves in some rigid roles when you don't do that in-real-life and we never have such a concept before in any games.

You're telling me right now: Hey Legolas, stay DPS, I'll tank.

The reality is, the Holy Trinity should never have been conceptualized ever. It doesn't make sense. A huge kudos to the GW2 team for getting rid of it, and a huge kudos to the other upcoming games (there are plenty) who also trashed the Holy Trinity.

We never needed it before. We don't need it today. We will never need it ever.

It is high time that we go back to how RPGs/MMORPGs should be played. The way it was meant to be. The way that is more fun, more challenging, more enjoyable, more active, more dynamic, type of RPGs/MMORPGs. No Holy Trinity = you have to use your brains all the time. You have to think. You have to adapt. You have to be a team player. You have to be flexible. In other words, you should think as if it is real-life and you are literally there fighting - fight for your survival, for your love ones, your friends, your family, for your comrades.

That's what a ROLE-PLAYING game is all about.

 

dude, sorry to break it to ya, but EQ 1 and Anarchy Online also had the holy trinity...sorry man...

Ive always played healers/crowd controllers in mmos  and i think overall this is the better system than the trinity but i do have a few things i think could further improve it. Lets face it, 7/10 mmo players play dps characters and this is well known. For them, little has changed other than that they have to work a little harder at staying alive. For the tanks and healers i can understand, and i even understand the crowd controllers (which i havent seen since daoc really).

for pvp i have absolutely no issues. Its pretty well balanced. Far better than a trinity system.

i have a couple of suggestions that would improve the dungeon experience i believe

allow a secondary 6,7,8,9,0 that you could change out on the fly  like you do your weapons. At it stands right now most skills never get used because they are situational but people dont stay still long enough for you to be changing these skills all the time in a dungeon.

I would also expand the radius of healing and protection type abilities by 25%-50% or so. With so much aoe in most fights most players arent in range of your benificial things because they are always evading away.

and of course i would have 3 man dungeons instead of five. :)