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General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » X-post from Reddit: You are all destroying the MMO genre, and you don't even know why you act the way you do.

8 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Last Search
144 posts found
  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

9/19/12 12:44:49 PM#21

What a load of bull. Could it be that simple that good games are successful and bad games are not? instead of blaming the players and community...just think about it.

I read OP in voice of Jay Leno. It was quite fun.

  Cuathon

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/24/04
Posts: 2254

Draw Something is now an MMO. God has forsaken us.

9/19/12 12:52:55 PM#22

This argument is a waste of time. Both sides are acting like there is an objective definition of what constitutes a great MMO. People just like different things.

 

MMOs have a lot of issues though. The biggest issue is staleness. The reason we need new MMOs with new ideas isn't because old games suck. Its a mastery issue. Once I can exploit a game to the point where there is nothing to learn I want to leave. I dislike current MMOs because they don't do anything new. The system comes pre solved for me.

 

I love strategy games because they are small enough to have significant gameplay differences. Warlords Battlecry is not the same as Achron is not the same as Starcraft is not the same as Total Annihilation is not the same as etc etc.

Most of the big MMOs are totally the same in the gameplay. I already know how to succeed. Its not the same for genres with less financial investment.

TBS games are even MORE versatile than RTS games. No amount of playing Wesnoth or MoM is going to teach you how to succeed at Dominions. When they add a new feature it MATTERS. You have to deal with it.

In MMOs you have a dude, with skills, and an inventory. That's it. Maybe GW2 has spell combos. That's the one real change. 

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1838

9/19/12 12:59:19 PM#23
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
Those are the true facts.

 

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 


Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

 

Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

9/19/12 1:00:03 PM#24

a lot of rant from the OP ...

.. so what if people want to consume content and move on ... it is what it is. There is no point in trying to change people's preference. It is the last thing that will happen on the internet.

Dev should adapt to this.

MANY MMOs are F2P, and many players don't stay long (average is 4-8 month). So what ... if the market is still big enough to spur development.

Who has the power to say a game should last forever.

If you look at the numbers, MMO, just in the US, is a $2.6 BILLION market. I doubt it is going to fold any time soon.

http://www.newzoo.com/trend-reports/mmo-trend-report/

And even if it folds, it is not like there aren't other entertainment.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

9/19/12 1:04:39 PM#25

I think this Reddit post is off the mark. Do you guys really think that players don't know what's fun for them? This argument that the MMO community as a whole is 'doing it wrong' is complete nonsense. OPs complaint and proof is completely anecdotal, and ignores entirely the fact that the majority of gamers don't participate on the forums. All of the bitching and complaining that he is in turn bitching and complaining about, is created by a minority in the overall community.

The standard MMO gamer plays the game he/she enjoys and logs out. The end. Games that are fun will make money. Games that are not fun will fail.

  halflife25

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 787

9/19/12 1:08:49 PM#26
Originally posted by rygard49

I think this Reddit post is off the mark. Do you guys really think that players don't know what's fun for them? This argument that the MMO community as a whole is 'doing it wrong' is complete nonsense. OPs complaint and proof is completely anecdotal, and ignores entirely the fact that the majority of gamers don't participate on the forums. All of the bitching and complaining that he is in turn bitching and complaining about, is created by a minority in the overall community.

The standard MMO gamer plays the game he/she enjoys and logs out. The end. Games that are fun will make money. Games that are not fun will fail.

That is what OP forgot to mention that over all forum users make a tiny percentage of player base world wide. Both fans and haters complain and moan on forums. Just targetting one side for failure of MMO genre is well ..idiotic.

Fans and haters fight it out on daiyl basis and real issues of MMOS are lost somewhere in between that bickering. For example majority of so called haters on GW2 forums are more of an anti - fan then anti-GW2.

Not that GW2 doesn't have its flaws but how many topics actually discuss  real issues? all i see is ego clashes between two sides. That is what forums are for and i think OP takes it too seriously.

  User Deleted
9/19/12 1:28:49 PM#27

The reddit post referenced by the OP in this thread is wrong.  If a game caters to masses it will (and does) sell...

 

... and therein lies the rub...

 

If you make a game specifically to appeal to masses so you profit, people who want "something good" or "something real" or "something different" will protest and call the spade a spade. In my personal opinion those devs are "the ones driving the genre into the ground" rehashing concepts just a little different over and over and over until they're totally disinteresting. Blaming the consumers/critics begs an argument of "trying to fool all the people all the time"~paraphrased, attributed to A. Lincoln.

  worldalpha

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/11
Posts: 401

Working hard on WorldAlpha

9/19/12 2:29:23 PM#28
Devs need/have to make money or they won't be making games anymore. It is always safer to go with the tried, test and true, than try something radically different.

Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  nixium

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/06
Posts: 21

9/19/12 2:33:11 PM#29
In all fairness in these troubling financial times games could simply be in decline and of lower priority in worried people's lives to cutback and save penny's for more important bills.
  User Deleted
9/19/12 2:37:16 PM#30
Originally posted by nixium
In all fairness in these troubling financial times games could simply be in decline and of lower priority in worried people's lives to cutback and save penny's for more important bills.

 

In all fairness, I probably spend less due to my gaming addition than I would if I wasn't a gamer. People need to have some entertainment in their lives and gaming is a very inexpensive form of entertainment.

 

(To add humor) If someone doesn't leave their mom's basement...they won't be spending money!!

  Thorbrand

Novice Member

Joined: 3/06/04
Posts: 1217

9/19/12 2:43:31 PM#31
They don't want to play MMOs and DEVs no longer make MMOs so this is what you get. When I state anything like that I get banned but most of the MMO gamers (used loosely) do not want to play MMOs. They also do not know what they want and will always complain not matter what they are given.
  User Deleted
9/19/12 2:47:48 PM#32

Sorry, but I still hang this on the developers.

 

#1. They turned level cap progression from 250+ hours down to 50+ because players screamed that they want it easier (faster).  With that you end up with a game that a casual can consume in a month, and a content locust can consume in a week.

#2. Storyline content has little to no replay value.  Experience the story.  Been there, done that.  No reason to do it again.

 

Add these two together and a game has no longevity.  Blaming it on the players is just a cop-out.

  knightaudit

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/06/05
Posts: 240

Those are my thoughts, not yours

9/19/12 2:48:12 PM#33

I would have to say that I agree with this person. There are people out there that see a game as something to be conquered. The end game is all that maters and the best gear is the ultimate goal.. but then what?

Instead of seeing the game as a place to be and spend your time, people want to beat the game. But how many can say they have experienced a game fully? been over the world more times than they care to count.

Take WOW for a moment. How many have left the game because they got bored with the raiding? now how many of those had been to the Spa in Un'gro Crater? Or been to the gates in Sithilis before they were opened?

I know when MOP is released it will only be a few hours .. maybe a day before you hear and see ... World Firsts happening .. but did they enjoy the game or was that it? Was scarffing down the content and getting done fast worth it? Will they be leaving because there is nothing to do at the end?

You can rush through life, but life will not rush through you.

  gordiflu

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/22/07
Posts: 761

9/19/12 2:54:48 PM#34
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
Those are the true facts.

 

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 


Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

 

Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

Not exactly.  Kim Ki Duk, Lars Von Trier, Wong Kar Wai and the likes keep doing excellent movies. However, just a bunch of theatres are showing their movies in my city while all the rest are offering Transformers 14 and Alien vs Predator vs Mario Bross.

Another example: I recently got the Bad Salad first album (actually first long play if that makes any sense nowadays), and I think it's an awesome band with really talented musicians. But Justin Bieber is outselling them so much.

Yet another example: Most famous restaurant in the world? McDonnalds.

Face it. People like crap so companies give them crap.

  krakra70

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/05/12
Posts: 127

9/19/12 2:58:41 PM#35

"You are not a casual player, shame on you!" - OP.

 

Games with good endgame (WoW,d2,daoc,EQ etc) do well, games with shallow endgame (like gw2 and pretty much every mmo after WoW) fail.

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

9/19/12 3:03:52 PM#36
Originally posted by gordiflu
 

Not exactly.  Kim Ki Duk, Lars Von Trier, Wong Kar Wai and the likes keep doing excellent movies. However, just a bunch of theatres are showing their movies in my city while all the rest are offering Transformers 14 and Alien vs Predator vs Mario Bross.

Call me out for loving crap, but... Good God, I would watch the shit out of that movie.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

9/19/12 3:04:27 PM#37
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
Those are the true facts.

 

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 


Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

 

Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1838

9/19/12 3:10:58 PM#38
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
Those are the true facts.

 

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 


Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

 

Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

I do.  Funny, I don't seem to see that news anywhere.  Sure, I can find the occasionally commentator voicing his or her opinion....but that's all it is, opinion.  I just don't see any facts....so I am still waiting for you to cite you sources. Afterall, the burden of proof is on you.

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6497

"Only cunts name their swords" -The Hound

9/19/12 3:17:02 PM#39
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by Xzen
Originally posted by Yamota

Complete fanboy nonsense from someone who does not understand market mechanics. It is quite simple, companies create products which customers like. If they don't like it then they wont buy it, period. You cant ever say that it is the customers fault for not liking your product and that is what essentially this post is saying.

So the statement that the genre is being ruined because customers dont like a certain aspect of an MMO is complete rubbish. Companies need to figure out what works and what does not, you as a consumer have only one obligation and that is to buy the products you like. If you don't like endless grinding for gear then dont buy those games but that does not mean that it can be assumed that replacing endless grinding for gear with anything will make customers like your game.

Now I am not saying that customers dont like what GW 2 has to offer as replacement for endgame, gear grinding but if they don't like it then they don't. Companies need to figure out what they like instead and cant blame customers for not liking what they do.

I don't know man. A lot of people watch reality TV and bad Movie remakes and it has been ruining the quality of both forms of entertainment. When a good movie does come out I see a lot of complaints from the same people because it didn't have enough explosions etc.....

I dont know what you mean, good movies get good ratings. The latest Batman movie was awesome and it got awesome ratings and the fact that reality TV is popular is because apparently alot of people like them and you cant blame people for what they like. Like you cant blame people if they dont like GW 2:s version of end game.

A corporations who blames customers for not buying their stuff is a corporation which will go bankrupt and this is what the OP does not get where he seems to want to blame customers for not, allegedly, liking something he likes and acting like that will ruin the genre and that is just nonsense.

They might ruin it from his point of view, like from my point of view who like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online and think the current selection of MMORPGs are not all that good, but that does not make the genre ruined. 

It is actually an extremely flawed view that you have.

 

True facts is that TV ratings are at their all time lowest point. Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had. Those who stayed were the ones who enjoyed the new reality TV crapfest. The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do. Those are the true facts.

 

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. Sure there are people who are going out and watching every Twilight movie that comes out and making that franchise money, but the industry as a whole is suffering very badly. The US market has gone down rapidly. The only thing that is helping counter act that is there are emerging world wide markets who are growing as they've now reached the technological point of putting theatres up and building it into the culture.

 

The same is with the MMO genre. The companies are putting out stuff that only one small segment likes. So yes, those players are buying and playing those MMOs. However, the companies are missing out on millions of other users because they do not know how to make a game those people will buy and play for long periods of time. All of the companies are fighting over the same small market segment and it is killing them all.

 

Actual facts are that the MMO genre is struggling to make profits and keep it alive. Many big companies have already said they won't invest any future money into MMOs because they don't see any profitability in that market at all.

 

Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

So much talk about "facts" but I do wonder. Do you have any sources to back those up or did you just make them all up. Movie and mmorpg genre is struggling. Lol, what a bunch of drivel.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

9/19/12 3:18:09 PM#40
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Cable companies are struggling with constant customer loss that can't be replaced. This is because the TV is so bad and it has chased away many of that viewers it once had.
The reason companies put reality TV out is not because it gets record breaking viewers. They put it out because it is the cheapest stuff to make so it doesn't need as many viewers to be successful the way expensive dramas do.
Those are the true facts.

 

The movie industry is also at one of its lowest profitability levels in all of history. This is because many people feel the majority of the movies coming out are crap. 


Basically your argument is missing out on all of the actual facts. Television, movies and gaming markets (most notably MMOs) are having trouble. Part of it is the economy, part of it is because of the crap products being put out there.

 

Umm you toss out a lot of statements as fact here.  I'd like to see the sources for all these "facts."

Google or follow the news once in a while, the information is out there.

Here's an excerpt from Televsion subscriber losses, I'll let you find your own articles and research:

 

But this quarter's losses were stark for DirecTV, which lost customers for the first time ever and for Time Warner, who lost customers for the tenth straight quarter and lost more than analysts expected. Comcast's loss of 169,000 customers was actually an improvement over previous quarters.

 

You can also find reports on how networks changed their programming due to loss of profitability margins on high end shows. You'll find information on how CBS decided to not follow that trend and keep putting out high cost higher quality shows. It is the most watched network on televsion as an added emphasis on how people do want good television and not reality TV.

 

Here is an excerpt about movie problems, again I'll let you find your own sources:

 

I hope you’re sitting down, because I have some difficult news to share: Almost everyone hates going to the movies. After cinema attendance hit at 16-year low last year, a new study has found that only 3% of U.S. consumers consider moviegoing “a frequent source of entertainment.” Is this news as bad as it seems? And if so, what can be done about it?

Maybe the most depressing thing about the survey in question is that it’s really easy to imagine why movies have fallen so dramatically in popularity (Two years ago, 28% of people rated moviegoing as a frequent source of entertainment, to give you an idea of just how sharp the decline is). After all, going to the movies is both expensive and, often, not that fun of an experience; bad crowds, bad seats and bad movies can all end up ruining the night out. When you start to think about all of the variables that can make moviegoing a less than optimal way to spend your time, suddenly alternative plans become much more attractive.

 

Hopefully with all of the layoffs, company shut downs, game shut downs etc. I don't really have to go get you excerpts about how the MMO genre isn't doing well, isn't meeting expectations, and how some companies have said there is no future in MMOs and do not want to put any money into developing new ones.

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