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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Where is the ballance?

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49 posts found
  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

9/19/12 10:37:28 AM#21
Originally posted by Jackdog

For most it easier to blame the game than admit they just lack the paitience or motor skills to play a class. If you think you can just stand in one spot and spam the #1 key and live then don't blame the game design. I hate to say it but go back to a MMO that allows you to do that or play a tank class instead of requesting the developers dumb the game down to your level.

I had a situation that killed my thief a dozen or more times yesterday doing the personal story but I am willing ot bet there was a trick to that instance I missed.It took me about ten deaths of doing the SOS before I adpated and tried some new tactics which finally allowed me to finish it. Still  died a couple of times but I get her done

I had the same issue with my Norn warrior in a personal instance. Then I went ranged attack and got through quite easily. Sometimes one needs to step back and rethink things, rather than continually bashing your head against the wall. The latter makes your headache and a game unejoyable, the former just some thought.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Jyiiga

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 987

9/19/12 10:42:49 AM#22
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.

-shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted. 

No thanks I'm happy using my superior skill to survive in a hostile world. I don't want to mindlessly mash hotbuttons and breeze through content. 

The rotations and the way attunements work will undoubtedly stay relatively the same. However, you can rest assured that there will be further adjustments made to this class and others. It plays different from BWE2 than it does now and will likely play differently a month or two from now. Anet has already stated that they are letting the meta game set in before they make adjustments and more and more players are hitting 80, getting exotics and giving feedback. To many people like to chalk things up and point fingers about unskilled players. Well when people start doing "math" and giving real metrics, solid feedback (if it be positive or negative) Anet listens quietly. People that played GW1 know this and know it well. They nerfed, buffed and renerfed things for years on that game. Ultimately it is unavoidable and if you think everything about balance in "a-ok" right now, good for you... Go back it up on the official forms with real data, because there are a mountain of players with similar experiences in pve and Spvp. 

One thing needs to be made very clear if nothing else. Anet does care about balance. They hold tournaments in Spvp and these tournaments often carry with them rewards that include real life cash. 

  TruthXHurts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1639

I am here to chew bubblegum and to kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum!

9/19/12 10:44:40 AM#23
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.

-shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted. 

No thanks I'm happy using my superior skill to survive in a hostile world. I don't want to mindlessly mash hotbuttons and breeze through content. 

The rotations and the way attunements work will undoubtedly stay relatively the same. However, you can rest assured that there will be further adjustments made to this class and others. It plays different from BWE2 than it does now and will likely play differently a month or two from now. Anet has already stated that they are letting the meta game set in before they make adjustments and more and more players are hitting 80, getting exotics and giving feedback. To many people like to chalk things up and point fingers about unskilled players. Well when people start doing "math" and giving real metrics, solid feedback (if it be positive or negative) Anet listens quietly. People that played GW1 know this and know it well. They nerfed, buffed and renerfed things for years on that game. Ultimately it is unavoidable and if you think everything about balance in "a-ok" right now, good for you... Go back it up on the official forms with real data, because there are a mountain of players with similar experiences in pve and Spvp. 

One thing needs to be made very clear if nothing else. Anet does care about balance. They hold tournaments in Spvp and this tournaments often carry with them rewards that include real life cash. 

I don't participate in any form of arena pvp so balance is not that important to me.

"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  Jyiiga

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 987

9/19/12 10:49:19 AM#24
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.

-shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted. 

No thanks I'm happy using my superior skill to survive in a hostile world. I don't want to mindlessly mash hotbuttons and breeze through content. 

The rotations and the way attunements work will undoubtedly stay relatively the same. However, you can rest assured that there will be further adjustments made to this class and others. It plays different from BWE2 than it does now and will likely play differently a month or two from now. Anet has already stated that they are letting the meta game set in before they make adjustments and more and more players are hitting 80, getting exotics and giving feedback. To many people like to chalk things up and point fingers about unskilled players. Well when people start doing "math" and giving real metrics, solid feedback (if it be positive or negative) Anet listens quietly. People that played GW1 know this and know it well. They nerfed, buffed and renerfed things for years on that game. Ultimately it is unavoidable and if you think everything about balance in "a-ok" right now, good for you... Go back it up on the official forms with real data, because there are a mountain of players with similar experiences in pve and Spvp. 

One thing needs to be made very clear if nothing else. Anet does care about balance. They hold tournaments in Spvp and this tournaments often carry with them rewards that include real life cash. 

I don't participate in any form of arena pvp so balance is not that important to me.

 

That is fine, you are entitled to play how you want. The thing is there is not a seperate system for pve/wvw and the only difference with Spvp is you get instant gear. All of them use the same weapons, the same stats and the same skill systems. So like past games my friend, everything that do to adjust wvw/spvp is going to directly impact pve as well. It does say Guild Wars on the box and just like the first game.. PVP is a larger player here than it is with most MMO titles. 

-shrug- 

  Volkon

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3804

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

9/19/12 10:59:36 AM#25
Originally posted by Jackdog
Originally posted by Volkon
Having a blast with mesmers in PvE. I think people make the mistake of trying to keep their clones alive rather than treat them like the little portable effect bombs they are. There are some great traits you should (subjective) be selecting for your clones that have "when the clone is destroyed" tied to them.

heh my mesmer feels overpowered if anything LOL. That class is a kiters dream class. Damn mob (s) never knows where I am

If you haven't yet, grab the major trait that causes clones to apply cripple when destroyed. Good times, good times.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  User Deleted
9/19/12 11:02:59 AM#26

Seriously, this is nothing new. In all MMORPGs, old or new, some classes are easier to solo than others. And usually, the "tankish" classes are the best, closely followed by the pet classes when they have "tankish" pets.

It's kinda normal... if you are a warrior, wearing heavy armor and specced in defense, you will be able to take more damage that your fellow clothie.

  TruthXHurts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1639

I am here to chew bubblegum and to kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum!

9/19/12 11:04:21 AM#27
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Jyiiga
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
I can't name a specific title, but some games actually label the classes as easy, medium, and hard. Why does everythign have to be balanced and fair. Nothing else in this world is. Why in the world should games be?

Well I guess they could start by labeling the ones here. Beyond that in those other games if you play said hard class to the best of your ability it should still be on par "power wise" as those easy and medium classes.

So far that case does not hold true in GW2. Playing the hard classes actually means playing the underpowered/gimped class in some situations.

We have already hit a point in the game where people are being flat out denied entry into dungeons because, players do not wish to carry them. Not because they are a bad player mind you, but because their class is a liablity to the success of their dungeon run. 

That is a trash WoW mentality, and part of the downfall of MMO's in general. These elitist prick teenagers need to be beaten by their parents. I used to play a Ranger on EQ1 so don't tell me about gimped classes.

-shrug- That might be true, but we both know it is not going away. Every class needs to bring "something" to the table. I'm not saying we all need to be the same, but no class needs to be in a state where it becomes unwanted. 

No thanks I'm happy using my superior skill to survive in a hostile world. I don't want to mindlessly mash hotbuttons and breeze through content. 

The rotations and the way attunements work will undoubtedly stay relatively the same. However, you can rest assured that there will be further adjustments made to this class and others. It plays different from BWE2 than it does now and will likely play differently a month or two from now. Anet has already stated that they are letting the meta game set in before they make adjustments and more and more players are hitting 80, getting exotics and giving feedback. To many people like to chalk things up and point fingers about unskilled players. Well when people start doing "math" and giving real metrics, solid feedback (if it be positive or negative) Anet listens quietly. People that played GW1 know this and know it well. They nerfed, buffed and renerfed things for years on that game. Ultimately it is unavoidable and if you think everything about balance in "a-ok" right now, good for you... Go back it up on the official forms with real data, because there are a mountain of players with similar experiences in pve and Spvp. 

One thing needs to be made very clear if nothing else. Anet does care about balance. They hold tournaments in Spvp and this tournaments often carry with them rewards that include real life cash. 

I don't participate in any form of arena pvp so balance is not that important to me.

 

That is fine, you are entitled to play how you want. The thing is there is not a seperate system for pve/wvw and the only difference with Spvp is you get instant gear. All of them use the same weapons, the same stats and the same skill systems. So like past games my friend, everything that do to adjust wvw/spvp is going to directly impact pve as well. It does say Guild Wars on the box and just like the first game.. PVP is a larger player here than it is with most MMO titles. 

-shrug- 

So why not balance everyone who enters the arena? Why not let the challenge of playing an underdog in PVE exist alongside the FPS bastard child arena combat? Why must the RPG aspect suffer to "balance" the classes?

"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

  Aerowyn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

9/19/12 11:05:29 AM#28
Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Seriously, this is nothing new. In all MMORPGs, old or new, some classes are easier to solo than others. And usually, the "tankish" classes are the best, closely followed by the pet classes when they have "tankish" pets.

It's kinda normal... if you are a warrior, wearing heavy armor and specced in defense, you will be able to take more damage that your fellow clothie.

^ just about every single MMO has this hell even TERA has a star rating next to the class when creating it telling you how easy it is to play.. it really is based on the individual though.. you can see the thread I made about this topic and how differn't peoples responses are on which class they feel is easy or hard.  

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Bookah

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/04/10
Posts: 225

"you are not prepared!"

9/19/12 11:05:41 AM#29
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Actually the game was pretty ballanced at release. But, it was only ballanced for top players in sPvP.

 

for average players leveling in PvE however its obvious that they perform much better on a straightforward class like warrior or ranger, then a more advanced class like Engineer or Elementalist.

 

This pollicy however makes people feel like the more advanced classes are not rewarded for their efforts, just wondering how anet will overcome this feeling.

I totally agree, after playing all the stated classes I have the same feeling. Overal however (Recently coming from AION.) The PVP ballance is pretty damn good.

  Jyiiga

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 987

9/19/12 11:10:20 AM#30

So why not balance everyone who enters the arena? Why not let the challenge of playing an underdog in PVE exist alongside the FPS bastard child arena combat? Why must the RPG aspect suffer to "balance" the classes?

-cuts out all this heavy quoting-

Well first off you would have to let everyone know that up front. You would be treating it more like D&D at that point. You can suggest that all you want, but we both know that isn't going to fly here. 

  Jyiiga

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 987

9/19/12 11:13:38 AM#31
Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Seriously, this is nothing new. In all MMORPGs, old or new, some classes are easier to solo than others. And usually, the "tankish" classes are the best, closely followed by the pet classes when they have "tankish" pets.

It's kinda normal... if you are a warrior, wearing heavy armor and specced in defense, you will be able to take more damage that your fellow clothie.

From what I have seen everyone has ways to spec for damage dealing, taking more damage and support. However, as I have pointed out before some classes fill those roles and do a all around better job. Some can also be setup to deal huge damage and NOT have to give up their ability to avoid damage.. While others can not. 

-shhhh don't say tank- I thought there was no trinity here!

  User Deleted
9/19/12 11:35:38 AM#32
Originally posted by Jyiiga

-shhhh don't say tank- I thought there was no trinity here!

Pretty much why I said "tankish". Even with my warrior in Knight exotics and with a tactics/defense build, I can't just stand in the face of mobs and hope to survive if I don't move/dodge.

Yeah, I take more than my Elem or even my Ranger. But that's just normal to me. Different classes play differently, thankfully.

  Kuinn

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1889

9/19/12 11:37:45 AM#33
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Actually the game was pretty ballanced at release. But, it was only ballanced for top players in sPvP.

 

for average players leveling in PvE however its obvious that they perform much better on a straightforward class like warrior or ranger, then a more advanced class like Engineer or Elementalist.

 

This pollicy however makes people feel like the more advanced classes are not rewarded for their efforts, just wondering how anet will overcome this feeling.

 

I agree, with warrior it's perfectly viable to only autoattack most mobs. It's slower, but it works. While on engineer if I dont use my stuff I will find my self quickly in a situation where I wouldnt want to be. However I'm not sure if that's a problem, as long as the classes are equal on the top tier situations.

 

Why, because some people are more advanced than others playing games, and there propably is demand for both easier and harder professions. I love my engineer, but sometimes I just want to play my warrior alt just to kick it in a completely laidback environment. Having said that, I find engineer to be better class when the crap really hits the fan if I have a good skill setup (disease thrower, elixir s + b-kit, and supply drop).

 

It's kinda upside down for PvE vs. PvP. In PvE I can handle harder situations with harder classes, but in sPvP I prefer the easier classes since I simply have more fun with them and I'm a lot more efficient, contributing towards my teams victory. I get 100 points more from single match on ranger or warrior compared to my engineer so yeah, love engineer on PvE but it feels like a fulltime job on sPvP to be efficient.

 

The problem with this is that player gets no warning when he starts playing. Tera had stars from 2 to 5 on class difficulty. 5 star class was not worse than 2 stars, it was simply harder to play, but actually could be more powerful when properly played to my knowledge. Why not something like this, green/yellow/red or something for class difficulty?

  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

9/19/12 11:40:48 AM#34

Necromancers remain completely underpowered. I'm seeing fewer and fewer necromancers the furhter i get into the game. Past level 30 all I'm seeing are Warriors, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Thieves are a little spotty. I think I've seen maybe THREE necromancers past lvl 30.

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  User Deleted
9/19/12 11:45:02 AM#35
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Necromancers remain completely underpowered. I'm seeing fewer and fewer necromancers the furhter i get into the game. Past level 30 all I'm seeing are Warriors, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Thieves are a little spotty. I think I've seen maybe THREE necromancers past lvl 30.

Necros are insane when played correctly. And even more in PvP.

All a "learn to play" issue in my opinion - it's hard to adapt to GW2 when you've played WoW clones for 7+ years.

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3449

9/19/12 12:07:29 PM#36

I'm pretty sure that lack of awareness and mobility kills most players in PVE. Players who just participated in a zerg DE, went full out AOE dps and barely got a scratch (not realising that others took most of the aggro for them). Then out on their own you need to res them because suddenly they do get the attention of mobs. Lot of players just mainly focus on killing mobs and not so much on staying alive when doing that.

I need to revive roflcopter warriors and with their 2handed swords and fire elementalists (who never switch element) all the time. Fortunately less so in higher lvl areas. There it is more of a mix. Probably because most by then learned to become more aware of their surroundings.

I play warrior and engi. I rarely die on any of those classes and that is mainly because I know when to get out imo. On engineer you sometimes just have to know when not to use turrets or grenades I guess :)

  Jackdog

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6201

9/19/12 12:36:29 PM#37
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Necromancers remain completely underpowered. I'm seeing fewer and fewer necromancers the furhter i get into the game. Past level 30 all I'm seeing are Warriors, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Thieves are a little spotty. I think I've seen maybe THREE necromancers past lvl 30.

Necros are insane when played correctly. And even more in PvP.

All a "learn to play" issue in my opinion - it's hard to adapt to GW2 when you've played WoW clones for 7+ years.

Not just WoW, LoTRO/SWTOR/name the MMO. A few people in my guild had a hell of time trying to understand why if they just stood in one spot and mashed buttons they died. Lie I said in a earlier post I even strafe and kite ot move in and out on my guardian.  Thief still has me bumfoozled on how to handle multiples but for me half the fun is figuring it out and finding the correct strategy/weapon

I miss DAoC

  Jyiiga

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/10
Posts: 987

9/19/12 12:39:30 PM#38

Now I see people talking about mobility and awareness. This stuff falls into the same category as some of my earlier statements. 

How many ways to dodge do you have? The novice would say two (as much as endurance allows).

Others would factor in skills and utility that allow them to avoid hits. Things like blind and skills like blossom (jumps over the target). The thing is some classes can face off against a vet mob and be immune to damage from 100% to 0% while other classes are involved in some little game of kite and retreat. 

Now in my personal opinion both sides of this coin are a bit lame. I think its hilariously funny that one class can just stand there and perma blind a vet mob. While the other is constantly kiting, stumbling into other mobs and generally having to use every single skill. I wish there was a bit of middle ground, but I don't want the middle ground to homogonize us all. I think Anet is capable of taking an iron to these wrinkles and the game will be better for it. 

  Sawlstone

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/22/09
Posts: 304

9/19/12 12:39:30 PM#39
Originally posted by Jackdog
Originally posted by The_Korrigan
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Necromancers remain completely underpowered. I'm seeing fewer and fewer necromancers the furhter i get into the game. Past level 30 all I'm seeing are Warriors, Rangers, Guardians, Mesmers, and Thieves are a little spotty. I think I've seen maybe THREE necromancers past lvl 30.

Necros are insane when played correctly. And even more in PvP.

All a "learn to play" issue in my opinion - it's hard to adapt to GW2 when you've played WoW clones for 7+ years.

Not just WoW, LoTRO/SWTOR/name the MMO. A few people in my guild had a hell of time trying to understand why if they just stood in one spot and mashed buttons they died. Lie I said in a earlier post I even strafe and kite ot move in and out on my guardian.  Thief still has me bumfoozled on how to handle multiples but for me half the fun is figuring it out and finding the correct strategy/weapon

Exactly this. It was a problem for me on my guardian of all things. I kept dying but it was always my fault. Just needed to unlearn my wowisms.

  Jackdog

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6201

9/19/12 1:55:39 PM#40
In this game the MMO player needs to rethink their strategy, tehre is no one weapon or weapon combo that will fit everyone and when playing go into a FPS frame of mind

I miss DAoC

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