For me GW2 combat places alot emphasis on a few words and a phrase:

Avoidance, kiting, combos, situational awareness and death doesn't mean failure.

For me the first big lesson was that dodge is in the game for a reason, using it when appropiate can speak volumes to whether you live or die. Learning tells from creeps will give you the upper hand on totally avoiding damage or atleast enough of it.

You can't really stand around firing off spells or limit yourself to standing in one desired spot for too long. No more tank and spank, you have entered an enemies domain, took shots at said enemies and so comes the result: EVERYONE is fair game.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by Nadia

this is what ANET has said about dungeon difficulty

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/365166/page/1

our own internal testing teams and alpha test groups learned to beat them using a combination of player skill, synchronous builds, strong use of cross-profession combos, use of cooking/consumable buffs (these make a huge difference!) and well formed player tactics. By comparison, after having months to play the game and the time our alpha was complete, some of our better dungeon groups felt the explorable dungeons were too easy for launch, we decided not to make them any harder given the expected player skill on launch.
 

Agreed.

I however feels that dungeons are indeed the weakest point of the game right now, but now because of OPs reason. For some reason do some of the bosses seems pretty uninspired and adding a little more personalities to their fighting styles would really help.

Also, a few more of them wouldnt hurt either, 8 is a bit little even if they have 3 different explorable stories.

I'm sorry but obviously you haven't run dungeons much. There are basically 33 dungeons at launch. The explorable modes and story mode all widely differe from each other, including different trash, strategies, bosses and even surroundings. You fail at misinformation. There has never been another game with so many dungeons so early. It's not ANET's fault other people haven't utilized explorable dungeon type dungeons so well. (Seriously though, all 33 possible paths are basically seperate dungeons.. if you disagree, I'm not calling you stupid, but you obviously haven't played them..)

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

Sorry but ANET doesnt hand hold, and many of us respect them all the more for it. Only like AC (maybe manor?) has non-80 level gear for tokens, so it's pretty obvious you should only be messing with story mode until level 80... Luckily ANET buffs, not nerfs. (except for broken fights of course)

To have a function where an entire wiped group can respawn with virtually no penalty close to the boss yet the boss does not reset is, in my opinion the very definition of hand holding.

So sorry, but ANET not only provides a hand hold, they give you a helmet.

2 things.

1) You do NOT need to be 80 for explorable mode. All explorable modes can be done at the designated lvl. It just takes some thought & proper skill useage. While it's true that you can't really use the coins until later on (unless you want some of the runes / potions), it's not a bad idea to start stocking up early, or to get some practice in before you hit 80.

2) There IS a penalty for dying a lot. There's actually 2 of them, and a 3rd if your entire group dies at the same time.

- First off, everytime you get defeated (regardless of if you respawn) your armor breaks, and it can get somewhat costly to repair it. Especially if you are dying a lot.

- 2nd, every time you go down you rally with less health. It's even called a death penalty. If you are dying to frequently, your health pool gets hit pretty hard.

- 3rd, bosses reset, and if you can't keep pressure on them they will start to regen health.

Call it handholding if you want, but if you are dying that much, you are generally coming out of a dungeon having lost money, and gaining little.

Well put, also the whole "zerg res fight" is not applicable in many of the later dungeons, especially Arah its basically impossible. They possibly included these earlier on on purpose (although they are now thinking of removing them) to help players get used to dungeons.

Two things I have noticed in the game...

The first is that you really do have to be a bit higher level or have a team thats higher level in some of the dungeons. Its not surprising to be one shot by an enemy if your gear and weaponry are not of a higher level. This is not to say its impossible but its not necessarily probable either.

That said... I do have a problem when people tout how many "paths" a dungeon has and how much content there is.

The fact is...there isnt. Look at it from an isometric view. The dungeons paths are not entirely large or highly scripted events. Honestly WoW still reins surpreme with its dungeon design, progression and scripting. This shouldnt be a surprise however, Blizzard has an entire team dedicated to dungeons and their design. Arena net, If I am not mistaken does not. While the personal story can be considered heavily scripted, and is quite impressive when its not bugging out...the dungeons themselves in explorer mode are a set of small linear paths which involve going a few steps to a room with some enemies, clearing it, grabbing loot and heading to the next room. It reminds me a bit of old school Legend of Zelda in its room to room to end play.

As someone familiar with level design, the dungeons are not impressive. The emotional response tied to the scripted events is non existent and the presentation, the layout is often poor. Does this mean there is no challenge? No, of course not. Its very challenging, it is just the dungeons  in explorer mode and their scripted events are shallow and short. They cannot constitute a good and or quality dungeon crawl.

Finally i would like to add that it seems like arena net did not take into consideration the nature of PUGS. While their internal testing was done in the same way a guild would opperate, one cannot expect a PUG to play out the same way. Blizzard intentionally created different types of dungeons as well as the challenge types to deal with this. I believe that is something Arena Net has over looked. They should create a mode of play and or level that is fine for PUGS while having hard core and or high end dungeons for the more strategically inclined guilds to tackle. I remember in vanilla WoW when no one knew how to take down a boss in Molten Core, and it required a team of 40 players, in a guild to formulate sub teams and practice strategies to take down such bosses. One wrong move and you had to start back from the beginning. To me, that was a quality and yet difficult elite challenge. (of course since then its been nerfed and casualized for easy consumption, but I think Anet could and should have learned from that.)

You can taunt either when you go near the foe/s or when you attack. You dont need more then that. As more damage you put on a target as more it will run after you, some mobs have specific behavior and dont follow this rule, but most do. Control! Snares is your friend when kiting.

Knowing the encounter you can perform very well organised run, have done it, it work as intended.

The game pace is fast and sometimes one mistake can be fatal for you and often to lead to wipe. But this is part of the fun and the challenge.

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

I'm sorry but obviously you haven't run dungeons much. There are basically 33 dungeons at launch. The explorable modes and story mode all widely differe from each other, including different trash, strategies, bosses and even surroundings. You fail at misinformation. There has never been another game with so many dungeons so early. It's not ANET's fault other people haven't utilized explorable dungeon type dungeons so well. (Seriously though, all 33 possible paths are basically seperate dungeons.. if you disagree, I'm not calling you stupid, but you obviously haven't played them..)

Dude, it is still the same dungeons. Yes, the differ when you take different paths but the game still needs a few more.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

I'm sorry but obviously you haven't run dungeons much. There are basically 33 dungeons at launch. The explorable modes and story mode all widely differe from each other, including different trash, strategies, bosses and even surroundings. You fail at misinformation. There has never been another game with so many dungeons so early. It's not ANET's fault other people haven't utilized explorable dungeon type dungeons so well. (Seriously though, all 33 possible paths are basically seperate dungeons.. if you disagree, I'm not calling you stupid, but you obviously haven't played them..)

Dude, it is still the same dungeons. Yes, the differ when you take different paths but the game still needs a few more.

I dunno. Each path offers completely different challenges, different bosses, different experiences. Yes, the settings are roughly the same, but that's kind of the point.

While I'm not opposed to them adding new dungeons (preferably after they finish fixing the ones they already have), take a look at TSW. They also launched with 8 dungeons, and that game also doesn't have nearly the same amount of content overall. So why the double standard? I don't think I've seen a single complaint about TSW having 'not enough dungeons'. GW2 launches with the same amount + 3 different experiences for each, and it's all of a sudden not good enough? Confused.

I don't think it's the number of dungeons that causes issues but a couple other factors:

• You need to approach them differently than any other activity in the same game. The play as you like that permiates the rest of the game is thrown out of the window as far as smooth dungeon running goes.
• They are also balanced for people who already are fully decked in at least rares, which doesn't make much sense. Even the story modes are not properly balanced for the level ranges and people who would run said modes.
• The recent changes with diminishing returns when running the same dungeon make even less sense, if somebody is legitimately trying to acquire a set from a particular dungeon.

There is a way to maintain agro. Just like in GW1, agro is determined by damage done to the target and initial "pull" of the target. To tank a target, you simply need to have your tanking character pull and do initial damage before everyone else piles on the mob. The reason your nade spec pulled agro is because you did to much damage too soon. 

You also seem to be in really bad groups. I've done several dungeons and I only ran into your issue when in a bad pug. Deaths can avoided with good corrdination, which is the entire point of removing the trinity. Instead of relying on 1-4 good players, everyone needs to be at least half way descent. 

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

I'm sorry but obviously you haven't run dungeons much. There are basically 33 dungeons at launch. The explorable modes and story mode all widely differe from each other, including different trash, strategies, bosses and even surroundings. You fail at misinformation. There has never been another game with so many dungeons so early. It's not ANET's fault other people haven't utilized explorable dungeon type dungeons so well. (Seriously though, all 33 possible paths are basically seperate dungeons.. if you disagree, I'm not calling you stupid, but you obviously haven't played them..)

Dude, it is still the same dungeons. Yes, the differ when you take different paths but the game still needs a few more.

I dunno. Each path offers completely different challenges, different bosses, different experiences. Yes, the settings are roughly the same, but that's kind of the point.

While I'm not opposed to them adding new dungeons (preferably after they finish fixing the ones they already have), take a look at TSW. They also launched with 8 dungeons, and that game also doesn't have nearly the same amount of content overall. So why the double standard? I don't think I've seen a single complaint about TSW having 'not enough dungeons'. GW2 launches with the same amount + 3 different experiences for each, and it's all of a sudden not good enough? Confused.

So far i've only done 1 (and completed it) expl. dungeon (AC) and i must say. It was vastly different from the story mode, so much in fact i would view it as a seperate dungeon.  In the explorable mode you took an entirely different route see new hallways / rooms and new bosses.  I can honestly say it's a HUUUUGGGGEEEE improvement of the WoW  normal / heroic model.  If their was a way to compare it for WoW players.  The dungeons are as different as UBRS was from LBRS, same setting, same instance, but vastly different experience.

Originally posted by xpiher

There is a way to maintain agro. Just like in GW1, agro is determined by damage done to the target and initial "pull" of the target. To tank a target, you simply need to have your tanking character pull and do initial damage before everyone else piles on the mob. The reason your nade spec pulled agro is because you did to much damage too soon. 

You also seem to be in really bad groups. I've done several dungeons and I only ran into your issue when in a bad pug. Deaths can avoided with good corrdination, which is the entire point of removing the trinity. Instead of relying on 1-4 good players, everyone needs to be at least half way descent. 

No dedicated healer necessary. But you have to have a dedicated tank pull have the others back off on dps to build aggro on a dedicated tank - are you sure this is a revolution away from the trinity? sounds like a spin on the same ol' method when you put it that way.

The difference between a dungeon party who know how to specc, dodge, use combos and work as a team is a WORLD away from those who think its a dps-solo run with some other people involved.

There are a few badly stat-ed mobs (Crucible of Eternity, Twilight Arbour) and fights that require broderline exploits to win (pull resets etc.) but these are being worked on - see the last patch notes.

The difficulty level however is nice and hard - and needs to remain that way!

I love the challenge in the dungeons and so does everyone else in my guild. I think the same is true elsewhere judging by comments to that effect.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by xpiher

There is a way to maintain agro. Just like in GW1, agro is determined by damage done to the target and initial "pull" of the target. To tank a target, you simply need to have your tanking character pull and do initial damage before everyone else piles on the mob. The reason your nade spec pulled agro is because you did to much damage too soon. 

You also seem to be in really bad groups. I've done several dungeons and I only ran into your issue when in a bad pug. Deaths can avoided with good corrdination, which is the entire point of removing the trinity. Instead of relying on 1-4 good players, everyone needs to be at least half way descent. 

No dedicated healer necessary. But you have to have a dedicated tank pull have the others back off on dps to build aggro on a dedicated tank - are you sure this is a revolution away from the trinity? sounds like a spin on the same ol' method when you put it that way.

"There is a way to maintain aggro" doesn't mean you have to, so no, it's not like a spin on the same ol' method.

Originally posted by Djildjamesh

Originally posted by aesperus

I dunno. Each path offers completely different challenges, different bosses, different experiences. Yes, the settings are roughly the same, but that's kind of the point.

While I'm not opposed to them adding new dungeons (preferably after they finish fixing the ones they already have), take a look at TSW. They also launched with 8 dungeons, and that game also doesn't have nearly the same amount of content overall. So why the double standard? I don't think I've seen a single complaint about TSW having 'not enough dungeons'. GW2 launches with the same amount + 3 different experiences for each, and it's all of a sudden not good enough? Confused.

So far i've only done 1 (and completed it) expl. dungeon (AC) and i must say. It was vastly different from the story mode, so much in fact i would view it as a seperate dungeon.  In the explorable mode you took an entirely different route see new hallways / rooms and new bosses.  I can honestly say it's a HUUUUGGGGEEEE improvement of the WoW  normal / heroic model.  If their was a way to compare it for WoW players.  The dungeons are as different as UBRS was from LBRS, same setting, same instance, but vastly different experience.

There I agree with you, but as an old MMO player dungeons with placeholders and many different bosses that can be up doesnt seem that different to me from this. It is a good feature but it is not enough to say that each dungeon actually is 4 different and I would not complain if they added a few dungeons.

It would also be nice with a small minidungeon in all the start zones to give the new players some hints. They dont need to be instanced and could be similar to the other open minidungeons in the game, somewhere I could bring the new guildmembers to show a little what the game brings in the future.

They probably could do with lowering the difficulty of AC and perhaps the final boss for TA story modes, just so players have 3 easy dungeons to fall back on if they lack the skill for later ones. AC is pretty brutal to new 30s and doesnt really inspire learning the game more.

Someone in a PUG I did commented that they didnt want to do a dungeon again cos they died so many times and spent so much on repairs. I didn't die at all and thought that it was a decent difficulty for a starter zone, but I am not new to MMOs or action RPGs. 

Sure that person will get better eventually, but the problem is that it isnt a gradual curve, nothing in the overworld up until 30 will prepare anyone for AC difficulty.

That being said, I wouldnt want them to lower explorable difficulty at all, in fact I would like to see harder prestige dungeons added later on, like the old GW1 ones.

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

Originally posted by observer

The main problem with this game is the way they introduced dungeons to players.  They came from a more traditional MMO background, with the tank/healer/dps setup, and yet new players are not shown how to use combos effectively.  The balance is off, especially for an entry-level dungeon such as AC.  They also could have restricted Explorer mode until 80, because this way, they are perceived "heroic and/or hardmode", as seen in other MMOs.  Then again, the downscaling would be pointless for them too.

The best description i've read, that describes dungeons in GW2, is "It's like a tank dying, and everyone has a "oh s*&#" moment, and chaos ensues."  Granted, this doesn't describe players who actually know how to coordinate, but for new players, this is dead on.

Sorry but ANET doesnt hand hold, and many of us respect them all the more for it. Only like AC (maybe manor?) has non-80 level gear for tokens, so it's pretty obvious you should only be messing with story mode until level 80... Luckily ANET buffs, not nerfs. (except for broken fights of course)

I am sorry but that is only the case with dungeons. They hand hold with everything else.

Originally posted by stevebmbsqd

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

Sorry but ANET doesnt hand hold, and many of us respect them all the more for it. Only like AC (maybe manor?) has non-80 level gear for tokens, so it's pretty obvious you should only be messing with story mode until level 80... Luckily ANET buffs, not nerfs. (except for broken fights of course)

I am sorry but that is only the case with dungeons. They hand hold with everything else.

Not really, handholding does not mean that a game is easy, it means that they constantly telling you what you need to do. GW2s handholding is Heartquests and personal storyline, otherwise the game pretty much lets you go where you want and do what you like.

Questhubs with long questchains where you need to complete certain to get further is far more handholding. Most MMOs lead you all the way through the game, tells you when it is time to move to the next questhub or zone and so on.

GW2 is surely not 100% freedom or anything but it have a lot less handholding than the average game.

Dungeons are not messed up, the players are. They are used to showing up, standing in one spot, doing DPS and getting a reward.

These dungeons were deliberately designed to be challenging and require thought and real teamwork.  They use new mechanics, and once learned, will spawn a new set of complainers on the forums about dungeons being too easy.

You can't stand still, you can't fight several mini-fights at the same time and you must read what the boss' mechanics are. I remember in SE, we struggled with the fire golem minion of one of the bosses; we struggled for at least 20 minutes; Then we noticed his description that revealed he turns damn near invincible if you use conditions on him. So we changed our tactics and he turned out to be a simple, slow, dps burn. No surprises this time.

Also, I am a bit surprised at all of the threads that decry the removal of the trinity; because it wasn't removed at all. Anet didn't remove these roles, they simply gave all classes the tools to pick which of these roles to play. As a Necromance, a squishy, I routinely tank in dungeons. In WvWvW, I choose to heal. These changes require a respec of traits, but that is inconsequential to me. The point is, I have a choice as to the role I want to play. People still tank, heal and DPS, but now that distinction is left up to the platyers instead of being pre-assigned by the choice of your class.

TL;DR: This isn't WoW, stop trying to play the game like it is.

I laugh at anyone moaning at dungeon difficulty serious. It's like they don't understand what genre they're in. In time someone will discover some exploit and build that will make it pitifully easy or at the very least doable by the majority. The difficulty needs to be there at the start especially for a game with a lack of gear progression, because in time this dungeon will become easy as players get used to it.

In game where people play for hundreds of hours these sort of things become an inevitablity. It was the same in gw1 and it will be the same in gw2.

The point is your supposed to get better at thegame to do them. If they were easy whats the purpose and achievemnt in doing them. There's plenty of "easy" content in the game. Thinking for your self isn't such a terrible thing.