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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Themeparks are beyond saving. I finally get it.

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30 posts found
  GamerUntouch

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 491

 
OP  9/18/12 8:19:15 PM#1

It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

People were complaining about lack of "progression".

Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

 

There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

 

You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

 

Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

You think anyone would play it?

 

The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

 

 

 

  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/18/12 8:33:44 PM#2

[mod edit]

What I used to like about leveling up is the new abilities I'd get. In EQ you got tons of toys to play with, but combat and non combat related.

  VirusDancer

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/04
Posts: 3684

Heroes are about character - not gear.

9/18/12 8:40:33 PM#3
It's not really just a themepark thing.  It's a gamer thing.  They're munchkins... if you're familiar with the old term.

I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  User Deleted
9/18/12 8:55:23 PM#4

What a bunch of nonsense! Now excuse me while i post a picture of my coffee on facebook and write "mmm coffeeeee", then grab a quick asian salad from mcdonalds and drive in my hybrid over to another anti establishment rally. Ill upload a video of it later with some dixie chicks playing in the background and tag it "obama aids fail" so more people will watch it.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4703

GW2 socialist.

9/18/12 9:38:12 PM#5
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Well, yeah. Themeparks entertain very very simple people usually.

This is a documented fact.  Just like sandboxes appeal to intellectuals, scientists, geniuses and other "deep" sorts.

Seriously, what a stupid thing to post, I hope you feel bad.

Why would I feel bad? Average player of WoW is a 9 year old kid. Simple games don't attract gamers looking for depth.

A.) You didn't say WoW, you said Themeparks.

B.) Where is the statistical data that the average player of any MMO is 9 years old, to say nothing of WoW?

C.) Your second post was as laughably ignorant as your first.  Give it up.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5078

9/18/12 9:44:43 PM#6
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

People were complaining about lack of "progression".

Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

 

There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

 

You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

 

Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

You think anyone would play it?

 

The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

 

 

 

There is hope for the genre.

The 1st thing devs need to do is stop listeneing to players tell them what they want. By and large, players want instant gratification and that has killed the genre.

What they need to do is some homework. Find a balance between what someone is willing to work for vs an appropriate reward factor for a job well done. And options options options. When you think you've given players too many options, give them more.

It's the sad state of the genre. The next big title has as many threads discussing issues with it's business model than issues with the game itself.

  FrodoFragins

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2784

9/18/12 9:52:51 PM#7
Progression was my biggest concern but I bought the game anyway.  I don't really feel the drive for exotics or legendaries and so I do see it as an issue.  I'm not sure why I would buy gems for cash.
  Homitu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2045

9/18/12 10:04:29 PM#8
Originally posted by Eir_S
Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Well, yeah. Themeparks entertain very very simple people usually.

This is a documented fact.  Just like sandboxes appeal to intellectuals, scientists, geniuses and other "deep" sorts.

Seriously, what a stupid thing to post, I hope you feel bad.

Step 1: insult group A. 

Step 2: imply that I am not affiliated with group A in any way. 

Step 3: believe that others have now inferred not only that I do not posess any of the negative qualities I have caused them to associate with group A but also that I am, in fact, the embodied antithesis of those negative qualities.

Step 4: bask in the satisfaction of glorious self-aggrandizement.  

  Darkmoth

Novice Member

Joined: 5/14/12
Posts: 175

9/18/12 10:29:23 PM#9
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

People were complaining about lack of "progression".

Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

You think anyone would play it?

The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

Honestly man, you say that as if it's gospel, but not everyone feels that way. It took me 9 tries to beat one of the Jedi Knight bosses in SWTOR. You know what I felt when he went down? "DAMN, I hope I don't have to do THAT again!".

Not everyone plays games to get a "rush", that's a specific goal of a specific type of person. Personally, I'd say I lean more towards playing RPGs for the vicarious enjoyment of shooting fire from my fingertips. Different strokes.

  Schwa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 29

9/18/12 11:20:04 PM#10

I have fun palying one type of game.

You have fun playing another type of game.

We are both correct.

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

9/18/12 11:23:28 PM#11

Welcome to my world, brother.  I've been preaching about this for years.  Can I get an amen?  

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2514

World > Quest Progression

9/18/12 11:30:48 PM#12
OP

I would like to hear how you would fix the problem. I read the issue you have with games that reward you doing an activity by making you stronger at that activity but what method doesn't do that? Even skill based systems give you more points for completing a task therefore making you more proficient at that task.

A good system doesn't pigeonhole you with your own progression. That's the key. Skill based systems and, in fact, GW2 accomplish this.
  User Deleted
9/18/12 11:39:53 PM#13
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

People were complaining about lack of "progression".

Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

 

There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

 

You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

 

Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

You think anyone would play it?

 

The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

 

 

 

Thats the main draw of a Sandbox since their is usually a never ending endgame based on either horizontal progression or immense time sinks.  Dont think we would ever see a game that took years to reach max level like in Asherons Call but one can dream.  The biggest deterrent developers need to consider when making extra long leveling progression or general progression is there shouldnt be a huge advantage between the differing player types.  GW2 comes as close to this as possible for themeparks but it still isnt quite the way I would design an MMO.  What I mean is say as an example Asherons Call has 275 levels but true endgame starts around level 75 for entry to most game types and level 125 for all types.  The difference between a 125 character and a level 275 is about 8 billion experience but only about 5% stat differences.  I am sure that wouldnt go over with the WoW kiddies these days but for old time MMO's that was the norm.

 

In AC, I could tackle a creature or boss 100 levels over my level if I was skilled enough and that is where sandboxes really start to shine IMO.

  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 650

9/19/12 12:02:46 AM#14

Not again. Honestly. The "Skinner Box" is thrown around way too much these days. Most people don't really even understand it. Skinner's box studied a very specific facet of operant conditioning. Calling something a Skinner Box (unless it is a Skinner Box) is just wrong. Video games which are accused of being a Skinner Box, if anything, are classical conditioning. Also, people enjoy the game that they play most of the time. In almost every case I've whiteness, people that still play a game which they're not having fun is for social obligations. While I've never gotten into WoW, I've had several roommates, and known many other people have were/are. A few of them stopped having fun at some point, but continued to play because their guild needed them. I'm not picking on WoW here, it's just the example that I have personally witnessed. Most people I know (including myself) stop playing when they're not having fun. On occasion, some people play a game they are sick of, because they're bored, and are just looking for something, anything, to do. I've actually spoken to several certified psychologists about the Skinner Box and gaming, and none of them feel that analogy is accurate.

  User Deleted
9/19/12 12:10:23 AM#15
Originally posted by Foomerang

What a bunch of nonsense! Now excuse me while i post a picture of my coffee on facebook and write "mmm coffeeeee", then grab a quick asian salad from mcdonalds and drive in my hybrid over to another anti establishment rally. Ill upload a video of it later with some dixie chicks playing in the background and tag it "obama aids fail" so more people will watch it.

haha, that's pretty good.  I'm not sure how it relates but its the most entertaining part of this thread for me.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

9/19/12 2:08:27 AM#16
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

 

Perhaps the most desirable fantasy in this day and age is to be able to show up, do a job competently and collect a paycheck.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5676

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

9/19/12 3:05:25 AM#17
3/10

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  GamerUntouch

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 491

 
OP  9/19/12 7:05:06 AM#18
Originally posted by Aelious
OP

I would like to hear how you would fix the problem. I read the issue you have with games that reward you doing an activity by making you stronger at that activity but what method doesn't do that? Even skill based systems give you more points for completing a task therefore making you more proficient at that task.

A good system doesn't pigeonhole you with your own progression. That's the key. Skill based systems and, in fact, GW2 accomplish this.

I can't fix it.

No one can.

 

That's the point.

Every game does this to a point, but MMOs have made the entire game just this little rush.

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2514

World > Quest Progression

9/19/12 7:38:18 AM#19
I think the players take equal blame. If you designed a system that forced a slow progress it would be lamented as too grindy. In the end I think a very broad and less oppressive progression is best IMO. Multiple paths and a little freedom. Also, you can't have one focal point in the end for everyone. Each "path" should have it's own purpose for progressing. It's tough to create original play what there are thousands playing lol.
  Thillian

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/31/06
Posts: 3228

9/19/12 7:41:49 AM#20
Originally posted by GamerUntouch

It hit me like a brick wall reading the GW2 forums.

People were complaining about lack of "progression".

Now, this thread isn't about GW2, but I was confused.

 

There's no real progression in any of these games, you don't grow your character, your deal more damage and for balance, the bosses get more health. It's frivilous and pointless.

It hit me then, it's the skinner box.

The subgenre is controlled by it. In fact, all games are.

 

You get that rush when you do something, when you complete something, when you get something.

MMOs have cheapened it to giving big numbers out like halloween candy, because people can't complete something hard.

To keep people subbed you gotta keep handing out that candy, increase stats, make them feel like they're progressing.

 

Imagine if they gave nothing at all. You just finished the boss and "poof" you're done.

You think anyone would play it?

 

The subgenre is built on this, it's a core concept that can't change and that's a shame.

 

 

 

In-game character progression is the primary definition of RPG.

RPG is built around it. If you don't have character progression, it no longer is RPG.

And no, don't tell me that story or dialogues makes RPG. That's the adventure genre about (which I like as well).

Complaining about lack of real character progression in a game which tries to be a mmoRPG actually makes sense.

REALITY CHECK

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