I'm going to start by saying I really do enjoy the game. By far, WvWvW is my favor part.

My experience with dungeons on the other hand, has been extremely disappointing. Currently the dungeons feel like a mess. I wish I didn't have to say that, but it's true. I find them to consist of dying and running back until the pull is dead. 

There are two main reasons for this in my eyes:

1) There is no way to really "taunt" in the game and assure agro. 

I know there are no tanks or healers in this game, but a way to taunt would go very far. It's really hard to kite a mob if you can't have it focus on you, and with the amount of powerful AoE in this game, it's hard to be the only person damaging a mob. The only other solution I can think of besides adding a taunt would be to lower the AoE damage drastically, but that would hurt a large amount of class balance. 

2) This game is way too fast. 

I found that most of us were dying before we even had a chance to do anything. My first runs consisted of me being specced nades AoE on my engineer. I started dying as soon as a mob touched me, because without a tank in this game, there really is no way to garuntee agro is held. My next runs were as a support elixer engineer, which was much more satisfying. That being said, when my two DPS players died instantly from stunlock, I was the next target, and I definitely didn't last very long. The only solution I can think of is if the developers lowered the damage output of mobs but increased their health. Make it so a DPS has a chance to live considering he will be pulling more threat. Most times they die before they get a chance to dodge.

Now I'm not looking for "Maybe you should play another game yaryaryayryaryaryarysdfvskdk fs af" or "Lol I've been telling everyone this game sucks lololololol". I'm looking for constructive feedback. Are all the dungeons like this and have you guys experienced the same thing I have? Anyway, thoughts?

this is what ANET has said about dungeon difficulty

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/365166/page/1

our own internal testing teams and alpha test groups learned to beat them using a combination of player skill, synchronous builds, strong use of cross-profession combos, use of cooking/consumable buffs (these make a huge difference!) and well formed player tactics. By comparison, after having months to play the game and the time our alpha was complete, some of our better dungeon groups felt the explorable dungeons were too easy for launch, we decided not to make them any harder given the expected player skill on launch.
 

Originally posted by Gorudu

I'm going to start by saying I really do enjoy the game. By far, WvWvW is my favor part.

 

My experience with dungeons on the other hand, has been extremely disappointing. Currently the dungeons feel like a mess. I wish I didn't have to say that, but it's true. I find them to consist of dying and running back until the pull is dead. 

 

There are two main reasons for this in my eyes:

1) There is no way to really "taunt" in the game and assure agro. 

I know there are no tanks or healers in this game, but a way to taunt would go very far. It's really hard to kite a mob if you can't have it focus on you, and with the amount of powerful AoE in this game, it's hard to be the only person damaging a mob. The only other solution I can think of besides adding a taunt would be to lower the AoE damage drastically, but that would hurt a large amount of class balance. 

 

2) This game is way too fast. 

I found that most of us were dying before we even had a chance to do anything. My first runs consisted of me being specced nades AoE on my engineer. I started dying as soon as a mob touched me, because without a tank in this game, there really is no way to garuntee agro is held. My next runs were as a support elixer engineer, which was much more satisfying. That being said, when my two DPS players died instantly from stunlock, I was the next target, and I definitely didn't last very long. The only solution I can think of is if the developers lowered the damage output of mobs but increased their health. Make it so a DPS has a chance to live considering he will be pulling more threat. Most times they die before they get a chance to dodge.

 

Now I'm not looking for "Maybe you should play another game yaryaryayryaryaryarysdfvskdk fs af" or "Lol I've been telling everyone this game sucks lololololol". I'm looking for constructive feedback. Are all the dungeons like this and have you guys experienced the same thing I have? Anyway, thoughts?

As far as 1 is concerned, of course most dungeons are like that. Gotta watch out for your own health. Mobs tend to go for the lowest hp target first.

As far as 2 goes, I don't find it that overwhelming as far as it goes. The problem most players are having is that you can't build straight damage and expect to be in the mobs face. You have to build at least some tanky with vit, or you will fall over everytime. Its reality. You shouldn't expect any less either. I find most mobs have almost too much HP to start with, and the damage output is at a decent medium, that I and others can live as long as they utilize their dodge and cds effectively to keep themselves up.

Dungeons are more learning curve intensive than anything else in the game PvE wise, and thats how it should be. I don't want them to make it any less difficult, only because if I blew through content I wouldn't learn anything and I would be disappointed in the fact that the instance wouldn't have a lasting impact on me. If I blew through something, like one of CoF explorer mode, I get bored out of my mind because it's nothing special. No cool mechanics. No special fights. Just a quick and boring adventure, yipee.

Dungeons literally help you realize how you should spec and play with your build to match the damage and dps needed to conquer it. Its not forcing you to play tanky, its more that you are not suited to sitting back and keeping yourself as safe as needed to keep yourself alive, so you need to change your play habits or gear accordingly. I never once complained about having to go tanky on my warrior, because I enjoyed the melee aspect and 2 handed weapons and knew that building pure dps would eventually get me into trouble.

IMVPO the story mode of dungeons NEED to be casual/PUG friendly. Then they can add 1 or 2 more difficult modes if "hardcore" is not enough for some. But SOME people just want a fun time in a dungeon.

As it is, it simply isn't.

Originally posted by Elikal

IMVPO the story mode of dungeons NEED to be casual/PUG friendly. Then they can add 1 or 2 more difficult modes if "hardcore" is not enough for some. But SOME people just want a fun time in a dungeon.

As it is, it simply isn't.

Besides maybe one or two parts in various story modes.. they are easy... (like golem in SE but the rest of with ease..) also it sounds like you don't even play the game... its very common knowledge there are a total of 33 dungeons (in a way). 8 base dungeons with a story mode, and each of the first 7 have 3 explorable paths which are much more difficult than story (most story are plenty pug worthy) Arah, the final dungeon, has 4 explorable paths.

The main problem with this game is the way they introduced dungeons to players.  They came from a more traditional MMO background, with the tank/healer/dps setup, and yet new players are not shown how to use combos effectively.  The balance is off, especially for an entry-level dungeon such as AC.  They also could have restricted Explorer mode until 80, because this way, they are perceived "heroic and/or hardmode", as seen in other MMOs.  Then again, the downscaling would be pointless for them too.

The best description i've read, that describes dungeons in GW2, is "It's like a tank dying, and everyone has a "oh s*&#" moment, and chaos ensues."  Granted, this doesn't describe players who actually know how to coordinate, but for new players, this is dead on.

Originally posted by observer

The main problem with this game is the way they introduced dungeons to players.  They came from a more traditional MMO background, with the tank/healer/dps setup, and yet new players are not shown how to use combos effectively.  The balance is off, especially for an entry-level dungeon such as AC.  They also could have restricted Explorer mode until 80, because this way, they are perceived "heroic and/or hardmode", as seen in other MMOs.  Then again, the downscaling would be pointless for them too.

The best description i've read, that describes dungeons in GW2, is "It's like a tank dying, and everyone has a "oh s*&#" moment, and chaos ensues."  Granted, this doesn't describe players who actually know how to coordinate, but for new players, this is dead on.

Sorry but ANET doesnt hand hold, and many of us respect them all the more for it. Only like AC (maybe manor?) has non-80 level gear for tokens, so it's pretty obvious you should only be messing with story mode until level 80... Luckily ANET buffs, not nerfs. (except for broken fights of course)

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

Originally posted by observer

The main problem with this game is the way they introduced dungeons to players.  They came from a more traditional MMO background, with the tank/healer/dps setup, and yet new players are not shown how to use combos effectively.  The balance is off, especially for an entry-level dungeon such as AC.  They also could have restricted Explorer mode until 80, because this way, they are perceived "heroic and/or hardmode", as seen in other MMOs.  Then again, the downscaling would be pointless for them too.

The best description i've read, that describes dungeons in GW2, is "It's like a tank dying, and everyone has a "oh s*&#" moment, and chaos ensues."  Granted, this doesn't describe players who actually know how to coordinate, but for new players, this is dead on.

Sorry but ANET doesnt hand hold, and many of us respect them all the more for it. Only like AC (maybe manor?) has non-80 level gear for tokens, so it's pretty obvious you should only be messing with story mode until level 80... Luckily ANET buffs, not nerfs. (except for broken fights of course)

Has nothing to do with handholding, just get out if that's what you are going to say in response to valid complaints.

Originally posted by adam_nox

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

Originally posted by observer

The main problem with this game is the way they introduced dungeons to players.  They came from a more traditional MMO background, with the tank/healer/dps setup, and yet new players are not shown how to use combos effectively.  The balance is off, especially for an entry-level dungeon such as AC.  They also could have restricted Explorer mode until 80, because this way, they are perceived "heroic and/or hardmode", as seen in other MMOs.  Then again, the downscaling would be pointless for them too.

The best description i've read, that describes dungeons in GW2, is "It's like a tank dying, and everyone has a "oh s*&#" moment, and chaos ensues."  Granted, this doesn't describe players who actually know how to coordinate, but for new players, this is dead on.

Sorry but ANET doesnt hand hold, and many of us respect them all the more for it. Only like AC (maybe manor?) has non-80 level gear for tokens, so it's pretty obvious you should only be messing with story mode until level 80... Luckily ANET buffs, not nerfs. (except for broken fights of course)

Has nothing to do with handholding, just get out if that's what you are going to say in response to valid complaints.

You're asking ANET to teach you how to play your class... how is that not hand holding? ANET prides itself on challenge, just read a few of the things it says about difficulty. Guild Wars 1 was the same way, first month or so people QQ'd a lot until they started to actually learn their classes and how to play. The mechanics of combat in this game are actually very complex as theres a wide variation of builds than can be created, especially when you take into account that builds can cross build between professions. You could trait yourself, slot yourself and use specific weapons to achieve very powerful combination with say a friend of another class. It's up to us to learn the complexities. Hopefully as even more dungeons are added they will be so difficult that if you don't have a well oiled team you will have no chance.

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

Originally posted by observer

The main problem with this game is the way they introduced dungeons to players.  They came from a more traditional MMO background, with the tank/healer/dps setup, and yet new players are not shown how to use combos effectively.  The balance is off, especially for an entry-level dungeon such as AC.  They also could have restricted Explorer mode until 80, because this way, they are perceived "heroic and/or hardmode", as seen in other MMOs.  Then again, the downscaling would be pointless for them too.

The best description i've read, that describes dungeons in GW2, is "It's like a tank dying, and everyone has a "oh s*&#" moment, and chaos ensues."  Granted, this doesn't describe players who actually know how to coordinate, but for new players, this is dead on.

Sorry but ANET doesnt hand hold, and many of us respect them all the more for it. Only like AC (maybe manor?) has non-80 level gear for tokens, so it's pretty obvious you should only be messing with story mode until level 80... Luckily ANET buffs, not nerfs. (except for broken fights of course)

It's not about hand holding, but easing players into content with scaled difficulty.  This is true when you need to unlock your weapon skills, collect skill points, gather crafting materials, and to some extent, WvW.  Is it possible as a lvl 10 to go to a lvl 50+ zone?  Sure, but you will not get far, and will most likely die.  You need to level up first, hone your skills, acquire gear, experiment with traits and combos.  Then you will learn how to play effectively, but this will take many hours and a lot of knowledge, and in effect the average player has only been to lvl 30 with little knowledge and little play time.

They are a mess but I can't exactly agree with your points. The biggest problem is difficulty isn't really there. Its the diablo style "beat you by cheaping you' tactic. If you got a good clean group set up in place, you WILL still get downed. Maybe its just a part of the game that you need to accept downed as a natural state to expect to get into, but even with a good group knowing what to do I can't get through it without getting downed, sure not 'killed' but I'm not really comfortable with the fact I even go down in the first place. It feels like such a thing shouldn't be happening at all with a 'good' run.

The worst thing is difficulty wise, I find trash to be the hardest part of the dungeon. The bosses for the most part a so much easier. To me, this is a problem. Its not just GW2 that has this issue mind you, but when trash mobs are able to present the group with the greatest amount of difficulty, its not a good sign.

Originally posted by Nadia

this is what ANET has said about dungeon difficulty

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/365166/page/1

our own internal testing teams and alpha test groups learned to beat them using a combination of player skill, synchronous builds, strong use of cross-profession combos, use of cooking/consumable buffs (these make a huge difference!) and well formed player tactics. By comparison, after having months to play the game and the time our alpha was complete, some of our better dungeon groups felt the explorable dungeons were too easy for launch, we decided not to make them any harder given the expected player skill on launch.
 

I love this part.  After months of trial they find it too easy.

Originally posted by Gorudu

I'm going to start by saying I really do enjoy the game. By far, WvWvW is my favor part.

My experience with dungeons on the other hand, has been extremely disappointing. Currently the dungeons feel like a mess. I wish I didn't have to say that, but it's true. I find them to consist of dying and running back until the pull is dead. 

There are two main reasons for this in my eyes:

1) There is no way to really "taunt" in the game and assure agro. 

2) This game is way too fast. 

Dungeons in some ways are a lot more chaotic.

However, and I'm not trying to be insulting here but, a lot of this comes from learning how to handle a different type of mechanic.

GW2 doesn't need a taunt mechanic. It doesn't. It instead revolves around everyone paying attention on their own. This means both, knowing how to use your skills & being aware of your surroundings.

- Help teamm8s up if they go down, but mind yourself so you don't get killed in the process.

- If you don't have the skills to negate a lot of damage; then don't go in first on pulls, and try and stay out of the line of fire.

- Invest in a higher HP pool. Many people who have issues with dying in dungeons have almost no vitality (neither traits nor gear). This is VERY bad when it comes to dungeons. Not only do you go down a lot quicker, but part of the mob's AI revolves around attacking the targets that seem to have the lowest health. More often than not, if you are standing near a beefy tank, unless he does a lot of CC to grab the mob's attention, you are going to get hit, not him.

- Balance CC, survivability, and damage. For example, my warrior is mostly specced for damage atm. However, this also means that he doesn't take hits as well. So, for fights I often have to juggle self-preservation with damage. Do I rush in and smack people around w/ a greatsword (which does a crapton of damage), or do I stay safe but have my damage suffer?

- Bring some skills to help kite if you are getting hit a lot.

- Don't go in first / try not to unload too much damage if you can't handle it when an enemy gets your attention.

GW2 is pretty fast paced, and it does take some getting used to. That's where practice comes in, though. People are clearing this dungeons with ease. It's not impossible, and it can be done fairly quickly with a coordinated group. It may be an issue of the class you're playing. Some classes demand a higher base skil lvl to perform well, while others are more straight forward and easier to grasp.

If you are having trouble with dungeons (and this really goes for anyone having trouble with dungeons), I'd highly suggest finding a guild that runs dungeons that would be willing to take you along. I've met quite a few newbie friendly guilds that like to run dungeons so far. It's much easier to get an understanding for how these dungeons work if you can observe groups who are capable of clearing them without dying all the time.

Just my 2c.

Originally posted by Purutzil

They are a mess but I can't exactly agree with your points. The biggest problem is difficulty isn't really there. Its the diablo style "beat you by cheaping you' tactic. If you got a good clean group set up in place, you WILL still get downed. Maybe its just a part of the game that you need to accept downed as a natural state to expect to get into, but even with a good group knowing what to do I can't get through it without getting downed, sure not 'killed' but I'm not really comfortable with the fact I even go down in the first place. It feels like such a thing shouldn't be happening at all with a 'good' run.

 

The worst thing is difficulty wise, I find trash to be the hardest part of the dungeon. The bosses for the most part a so much easier. To me, this is a problem. Its not just GW2 that has this issue mind you, but when trash mobs are able to present the group with the greatest amount of difficulty, its not a good sign.

Down is a part of the game, and while there are cheap parts in some dungeons they are getting fixed. However its obvious you have not taken on the challenge of explorables (or you've only played the easiest paths..) otherwise you would certainly not be considering bosses to be pushovers. (Arah is the greatest example of the balance of bosses being far more challenging than trash). It is definetly true that trash throughout the story modes is more challenging than the bosses, but story modes are supposed to be minimal challenge regardless.

I can see how down can be considered something bad, but you need to move past that. However, a truly good group would barely have any downs whatsoever. (it has been rare but I have run an explorable or two where no one went down). Many of us are too attached to how the trinity over the years has molded us. Combos are a huge part of becoming a great group and for any truly successful group t hey need to be understood and studied carefully, not just happen because you happened to throw X field in front of X projectile thrower.

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

I can see how down can be considered something bad, but you need to move past that. However, a truly good group would barely have any downs whatsoever. (it has been rare but I have run an explorable or two where no one went down). Many of us are too attached to how the trinity over the years has molded us. Combos are a huge part of becoming a great group and for any truly successful group t hey need to be understood and studied carefully, not just happen because you happened to throw X field in front of X projectile thrower.

This ^

Downed is a part of the game, and it's rare when a group never has a single person go down during a dungeon run (though it does happen). However a good group keeps those occurances to a minimum, and if someone does go down, there is usually at least 1 person there immediately to bring them back up.

In a good group people are enough aware of their surroundings to both help downed players efficiently, but also avoid unnecessary death penalties by ressing players within the line of enemy fire, all without having to be told. A bad group, it won't matter how much you say, or whether you're on vent or not, people will die, because they aren't thinking on their feet. They're rushing into places without knowing what to expect. They're standing there DPSing the boss while an ally is downed right next to him. They're doing nothing to draw an enemy's attention when needed, or two kite aggro if they happen to get it.

All this comes with being a skill-based game. The trinity model takes the skill out of combat; by replacing it with a very linear, easy to understand rotation of events. There are no surprises, and there are rarely ever more than 1 way of dealing with a boss. The trinity model may be a lot simpler, but for people who enjoy a challenge, it's way less fun.

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

Originally posted by observer

The main problem with this game is the way they introduced dungeons to players.  They came from a more traditional MMO background, with the tank/healer/dps setup, and yet new players are not shown how to use combos effectively.  The balance is off, especially for an entry-level dungeon such as AC.  They also could have restricted Explorer mode until 80, because this way, they are perceived "heroic and/or hardmode", as seen in other MMOs.  Then again, the downscaling would be pointless for them too.

The best description i've read, that describes dungeons in GW2, is "It's like a tank dying, and everyone has a "oh s*&#" moment, and chaos ensues."  Granted, this doesn't describe players who actually know how to coordinate, but for new players, this is dead on.

Sorry but ANET doesnt hand hold, and many of us respect them all the more for it. Only like AC (maybe manor?) has non-80 level gear for tokens, so it's pretty obvious you should only be messing with story mode until level 80... Luckily ANET buffs, not nerfs. (except for broken fights of course)

To have a function where an entire wiped group can respawn with virtually no penalty close to the boss yet the boss does not reset is, in my opinion the very definition of hand holding.

So sorry, but ANET not only provides a hand hold, they give you a helmet.

Originally posted by Zorgo

Originally posted by LuciferIAm

Sorry but ANET doesnt hand hold, and many of us respect them all the more for it. Only like AC (maybe manor?) has non-80 level gear for tokens, so it's pretty obvious you should only be messing with story mode until level 80... Luckily ANET buffs, not nerfs. (except for broken fights of course)

To have a function where an entire wiped group can respawn with virtually no penalty close to the boss yet the boss does not reset is, in my opinion the very definition of hand holding.

So sorry, but ANET not only provides a hand hold, they give you a helmet.

2 things.

1) You do NOT need to be 80 for explorable mode. All explorable modes can be done at the designated lvl. It just takes some thought & proper skill useage. While it's true that you can't really use the coins until later on (unless you want some of the runes / potions), it's not a bad idea to start stocking up early, or to get some practice in before you hit 80.

2) There IS a penalty for dying a lot. There's actually 2 of them, and a 3rd if your entire group dies at the same time.

- First off, everytime you get defeated (regardless of if you respawn) your armor breaks, and it can get somewhat costly to repair it. Especially if you are dying a lot.

- 2nd, every time you go down you rally with less health. It's even called a death penalty. If you are dying to frequently, your health pool gets hit pretty hard.

- 3rd, bosses reset, and if you can't keep pressure on them they will start to regen health.

Call it handholding if you want, but if you are dying that much, you are generally coming out of a dungeon having lost money, and gaining little.

Originally posted by Gorudu

I'm going to start by saying I really do enjoy the game. By far, WvWvW is my favor part.

 

My experience with dungeons on the other hand, has been extremely disappointing. Currently the dungeons feel like a mess. I wish I didn't have to say that, but it's true. I find them to consist of dying and running back until the pull is dead. 

 

There are two main reasons for this in my eyes:

1) There is no way to really "taunt" in the game and assure agro. 

I know there are no tanks or healers in this game, but a way to taunt would go very far. It's really hard to kite a mob if you can't have it focus on you, and with the amount of powerful AoE in this game, it's hard to be the only person damaging a mob. The only other solution I can think of besides adding a taunt would be to lower the AoE damage drastically, but that would hurt a large amount of class balance. 

 

2) This game is way too fast. 

I found that most of us were dying before we even had a chance to do anything. My first runs consisted of me being specced nades AoE on my engineer. I started dying as soon as a mob touched me, because without a tank in this game, there really is no way to garuntee agro is held. My next runs were as a support elixer engineer, which was much more satisfying. That being said, when my two DPS players died instantly from stunlock, I was the next target, and I definitely didn't last very long. The only solution I can think of is if the developers lowered the damage output of mobs but increased their health. Make it so a DPS has a chance to live considering he will be pulling more threat. Most times they die before they get a chance to dodge.

 

Now I'm not looking for "Maybe you should play another game yaryaryayryaryaryarysdfvskdk fs af" or "Lol I've been telling everyone this game sucks lololololol". I'm looking for constructive feedback. Are all the dungeons like this and have you guys experienced the same thing I have? Anyway, thoughts?

there is a way to taunt. it's called aggressive CC. try playing a rifle engineer, confusion mesmer, or hammer/staff guardian. you'll be tossing mobs all over the place

Originally posted by Nadia

this is what ANET has said about dungeon difficulty

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/forums/thread/365166/page/1

our own internal testing teams and alpha test groups learned to beat them using a combination of player skill, synchronous builds, strong use of cross-profession combos, use of cooking/consumable buffs (these make a huge difference!) and well formed player tactics. By comparison, after having months to play the game and the time our alpha was complete, some of our better dungeon groups felt the explorable dungeons were too easy for launch, we decided not to make them any harder given the expected player skill on launch.
 

Agreed.

I however feels that dungeons are indeed the weakest point of the game right now, but now because of OPs reason. For some reason do some of the bosses seems pretty uninspired and adding a little more personalities to their fighting styles would really help.

Also, a few more of them wouldnt hurt either, 8 is a bit little even if they have 3 different explorable stories.