Originally posted by Gishgeron

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

OP is dumb.

I could easily make 5 gold a day if I wanted to. It's really not hard to make gold once you hit lvl 80. 

Again, this is sorta related to my question right above.

I don't think it's about 5 or 6 gold. It's about who has more of it. If everyone is doing everyhing in the game possible to obtain everything they can. (Getting the golems for example) then everyone should have the same amount still. Then another player spends 5 gold on siege weapons and another spends 50. Does the group that spends 50 have an advantage? Yes or no? and why or whynot?

Isn't this true for everything.  In baseball, Yankee's vs. Royals.  There are gold sellers in every MMO for a reason.   The problem with the OP is that we don't have all the facts.  It is pure specualtion that all the golems were bought with gems.   He tries to make his point by showing on side dominating the others with the overall map pic, as others have pointed out, that is more likely do to the spy they have leading them.  

Your trying to support the OP's statements by more speculation.  Yes we can speculate that the server spending the most money will win.  We can also speculate that the server that is spends more time in WvW will win.  We can also speculate the the server with the most people in WvW will win.  We can speculate all we want but at some point we have to put our Hypothesis to the test. 

 

  Thats not entirely true.  You don't HAVE to put it to the test to discover some instability in a system.  Games are all about numbers, really.  How values effect outcomes.  MMO gaming actually takes that to the extreme usually.  The question comes down to what limiting factors are in play during WvWvW?  See, in a limitless environment this gem exchange thing would actually equate to P2W because, even though you still require people in the game to BUY gems, not all players are involved in the WvWvW and their gold which, otherwise, would have not been a part of that system now will be.  Now, gratned, this is not NEARLY the sort of big deal that the OP makes it out to be because it suggests far more of what is possible than actually what is.  The OP makes it sound like you ca straight up buy golems with money and just rock the hell outta people.  You can't, and your financial advantage is controlled by demand and market value at the time.

  But that doesn't mean you can ignore how that can affect a system in play.  In a limitless environment, this would still be way too much.  But this isn't, so far as I've read, a limitless environment.  You can't just summon all the siege willy nilly.  Each one, apparently, takes a portion of your sides available supply.  This supply is also used in other ways to help the side.  Obviously, burning it all on siege is a terrible ideal under normal gameplay.  Its still a TOUCH unfair in that its giving options to the player which affect actual gameplay, (something that this cash shop was not supposed to do), that others will not have.  This is not good, it means that real world money IS ON SOME LEVEL impacting the game and thats not what we should accept from this company.  But the worst part is this.....

  This advantage couples ENTIRELY too well with other advantages I'm reading about.

  You see, people using spies can maximize this advantage.  Its one thing to say that burning all your supply on golems is stupid in normal gameplay.  But with these server swapped spies...you can choose to burn that supply when its WILL turn the battle.  One single spy backed by one single rich guy selling gems could, by themselves, remove any chance of the opposing teams being able to fight back.  The only way to combat this is to have a spy and a rich dude of your own.  I hear you all saying that gold is a non issue at end game.  But that doesn't make it better.  It means that the rich dude has that much gold BEFORE he buys more.  He always has the financial advatage.  And, apparently, he also has the inside knowledge of how to use it every time.

 

 

Appears that a problem does exist.  Two even.  Two that really break large scale PvP.  While fixing one of them makes the other less useful...we should want both removed on principle.  I assure you that you do NOT want ANET to start seeing how much money they can make on even a touch of pay to win.  You will see more of it if that happens.  Not because the company wants to ruin the game...but because they probably have investors that really couldn't give a shit less about you.

No offense, because you are probably smarter than me but the conclusion you came to really needs alot of testing. 

For one, you are making the assumption that AreanaNet will fleece their player base if given the opportuinty, but it may come a shock to many that not all businesses work that way.  Most business obtain more money by simply providing value to for a price their customer is willing to.  It the price taker vs. price seeker triangle but that's not what this thread is about so we won't go into that.   Lets, just say that based of GW1, there is no reason to believe that will happen in GW2. 

There are a few other points that would need to be tested to verify your conclusion.

1.  The assumption that the rich guy is exclusive to one server.   You must be able to determine that the two losing servers didn't have a rich guy buying all the seige equipment.  This pretty much is impossible by the way, see later points.

2.  In game gold can purchase gems as well.  I was going to buy some gems with real money the other day to buy a bank slot, but I checked the exchange rate and determined that I could get a bank slot for 1g77s55b.  I had plenty of ingame gold so I purchased the gems with ingame gold.  Since you can obtain gems with ingame gold you would have to prove that an in game wealth could do the same as the rich guy.

3.  Plans are soul bound so one guy cant buy a bunch and hand them out.

4.  The plans have a cool down for a few days so the rich guy cant build all the golems for his server.

5.  You mentioned the supply.  You need supply before you can build seige equipment,  so it is safe to assume that he that controls the supply controls the seige equipment.

6.  Spy's are a temporary annoyance because of the free transfers.  Once that goes away, anyone that transfers to another server will not be able to particpate in the current battle.  So you would have to know who you were fighting next in order to transfer to the correct server.  Of course the rich guy will just have a character on every server.

I will stop here.  Basically I think you need to test your conclusion.

.  No were did I see your conclusion take into account any of these points.  The only way your conclusion works is if you

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

OP is dumb.

I could easily make 5 gold a day if I wanted to. It's really not hard to make gold once you hit lvl 80. 

Again, this is sorta related to my question right above.

I don't think it's about 5 or 6 gold. It's about who has more of it. If everyone is doing everyhing in the game possible to obtain everything they can. (Getting the golems for example) then everyone should have the same amount still. Then another player spends 5 gold on siege weapons and another spends 50. Does the group that spends 50 have an advantage? Yes or no? and why or whynot?

Isn't this true for everything.  In baseball, Yankee's vs. Royals.  There are gold sellers in every MMO for a reason.   The problem with the OP is that we don't have all the facts.  It is pure specualtion that all the golems were bought with gems.   He tries to make his point by showing on side dominating the others with the overall map pic, as others have pointed out, that is more likely do to the spy they have leading them.  

Your trying to support the OP's statements by more speculation.  Yes we can speculate that the server spending the most money will win.  We can also speculate that the server that is spends more time in WvW will win.  We can also speculate the the server with the most people in WvW will win.  We can speculate all we want but at some point we have to put our Hypothesis to the test. 

 

you uhhh...think maybe you might want to go back and re read my post after the one you quoted here and maybe think about revising your attack against me?

 

Just maybe, I really was actually trying to get the full picture here. You know, not everyone has a hidden agenda. This is the 2nd time you have accused me of somethign I haven't done.

LOL.  And that is the second time that you claimed I attacked you.  You must be a very sensitive person.  The fact that you accuse people of attacking you has to make one wonder what your agenda is.   I will refrain from trying to discuss any topics with you in the future.   I apologize, I thought I was on a forum. 

Well, anwyay. I don't mind discussing the differences in our ideas. I had no issue with your claim that the OP didn't have all the facts. I cna't even argue that. In fact, I agree with it. But then you came down on me claiming my intentions were false. When I really wanted to see what was being said. Neither side was being very clear. I've never believed GW2 to be P2W.  We can disagree on our opinions as well, but lets just keep it to the topic and not about the person.

My initial response was on topic and did not reflect negative on any person.  My point was your question supported the OP because it is trying to further a conversation that can not be answered honestly in this post.  We need all the facts and, speculating about why or why not won't get us to a conclusion.

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

OP is dumb.

I could easily make 5 gold a day if I wanted to. It's really not hard to make gold once you hit lvl 80. 

Again, this is sorta related to my question right above.

I don't think it's about 5 or 6 gold. It's about who has more of it. If everyone is doing everyhing in the game possible to obtain everything they can. (Getting the golems for example) then everyone should have the same amount still. Then another player spends 5 gold on siege weapons and another spends 50. Does the group that spends 50 have an advantage? Yes or no? and why or whynot?

Isn't this true for everything.  In baseball, Yankee's vs. Royals.  There are gold sellers in every MMO for a reason.   The problem with the OP is that we don't have all the facts.  It is pure specualtion that all the golems were bought with gems.   He tries to make his point by showing on side dominating the others with the overall map pic, as others have pointed out, that is more likely do to the spy they have leading them.  

Your trying to support the OP's statements by more speculation.  Yes we can speculate that the server spending the most money will win.  We can also speculate that the server that is spends more time in WvW will win.  We can also speculate the the server with the most people in WvW will win.  We can speculate all we want but at some point we have to put our Hypothesis to the test. 

 

you uhhh...think maybe you might want to go back and re read my post after the one you quoted here and maybe think about revising your attack against me?

 

Just maybe, I really was actually trying to get the full picture here. You know, not everyone has a hidden agenda. This is the 2nd time you have accused me of somethign I haven't done.

LOL.  And that is the second time that you claimed I attacked you.  You must be a very sensitive person.  The fact that you accuse people of attacking you has to make one wonder what your agenda is.   I will refrain from trying to discuss any topics with you in the future.   I apologize, I thought I was on a forum. 

Well, anwyay. I don't mind discussing the differences in our ideas. I had no issue with your claim that the OP didn't have all the facts. I cna't even argue that. In fact, I agree with it. But then you came down on me claiming my intentions were false. When I really wanted to see what was being said. Neither side was being very clear. I've never believed GW2 to be P2W.  We can disagree on our opinions as well, but lets just keep it to the topic and not about the person.

My initial response was on topic and did not reflect negative on any person.  My point was your question supported the OP because it is trying to further a conversation that can not be answered honestly in this post.  We need all the facts and, speculating about why or why not won't get us to a conclusion.

Then that's what you should have said in the 1st place. I can respect this answer. You feel the question was sided, that's fine. I can rephrase it. In retro spect, I worded it that way because the responses that people were throwing back at the OP didn't address the main concern about the supposed problem. I wasn't satisfied with "You can get golems in the game" or I can go earn 6G too" when in both cases, those answers can easily be dismissed and don't really address the supposed P2W quesiton. Iron Legion, however, did answer me with what i wanted to know.

You really can't deny that paying money in Guild Wars 2 can give you an advantage in PvP. It's a fact.

That being said it doesn't mean your going to win. I think calling the game "pay to win" is a stretch, but it deffinitely has some "pay to win" elements.

Originally posted by Size-Twelve

 

---

Originally posted by VikingGamer
This is the part that is not strickly correct. They cannot be purchased with any real currency. Siege engines can only be bought with in game gold. (or badges) Real currency has to be exchanged into gold first. This may sound like a small point but it really isn't when you consider that they are using a natural value exchange system which allows for fluctuation in the exchange rate. This means that those who have access to resources are not limited only to those with a lot of real world wealth but also to those who have a lot of real world time to spend within the game making gold if they so choose.

 

The point is that there has to be a real exchange of value at some point. Someone has to be willing to trade their real money for the time that someone else spent in game making gold. But in the end that 1g that paid for a siege golem had to be made within the game world. it could have been spent on the golem the person who originally made the 1g but instead he choose to give it to someone else in exchange for gems and that other person spent it on a golem. But if nobody had bothered to make the 1g in the first place no golem could have been bought from the siege vendor. No matter how many gems people had chossen to pick up.

---

 

That's a fair point. I don't know though if ANet artificially props up this price so that gems don't become totally worthless? It would not surprise me if they did. If this isn't the case, and gems were allowed to devalue into infinity, that would definitely limit my pay-to-win argument.

From what I've seen though, gems to gold trades simply don't go below 25s per 100gems or so.

Gem prices have been steadily rising over the last week, they were around 35s today and it is an upward trajectory.

Originally posted by drakes821

You really can't deny that paying money in Guild Wars 2 can give you an advantage in PvP. It's a fact.

That being said it doesn't mean your going to win. I think calling the game "pay to win" is a stretch, but it deffinitely has some "pay to win" elements.

Yes its not a matter of "He who controls the spice controls the universe"  but it can and does give a distinct edge to those with money to burn. Which seems to go completly against the whole "skill against skill alone" rhetoric we've been hearing for the past year.

How can you say people are correct and call them trolls in the same sentence?

Obviously people saw something you didn't see, and were blindly called trolls just to deligitimize their observation.

Now you're seeing some thing I saw in beta, I guess, or realizing it a little later.

Also, as stated before, no one will apologize, so I'll just take the liberty of rubbing it in a little more.

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by drakes821

You really can't deny that paying money in Guild Wars 2 can give you an advantage in PvP. It's a fact.

That being said it doesn't mean your going to win. I think calling the game "pay to win" is a stretch, but it deffinitely has some "pay to win" elements.

Yes its not a matter of "He who controls the spice controls the universe"  but it can and does give a distinct edge to those with money to burn. Which seems to go completly against the whole "skill against skill alone" rhetoric we've been hearing for the past year.

Zerg vs Zerg was never about skill, who seriously cares about some idiot spending real money to buy expensive siege weapon ... with exception of few bonuses for your server there is not any meaningful advantage for player who did this in other parts of game . 

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

OP is dumb.

I could easily make 5 gold a day if I wanted to. It's really not hard to make gold once you hit lvl 80. 

Again, this is sorta related to my question right above.

I don't think it's about 5 or 6 gold. It's about who has more of it. If everyone is doing everyhing in the game possible to obtain everything they can. (Getting the golems for example) then everyone should have the same amount still. Then another player spends 5 gold on siege weapons and another spends 50. Does the group that spends 50 have an advantage? Yes or no? and why or whynot?

Isn't this true for everything.  In baseball, Yankee's vs. Royals.  There are gold sellers in every MMO for a reason.   The problem with the OP is that we don't have all the facts.  It is pure specualtion that all the golems were bought with gems.   He tries to make his point by showing on side dominating the others with the overall map pic, as others have pointed out, that is more likely do to the spy they have leading them.  

Your trying to support the OP's statements by more speculation.  Yes we can speculate that the server spending the most money will win.  We can also speculate that the server that is spends more time in WvW will win.  We can also speculate the the server with the most people in WvW will win.  We can speculate all we want but at some point we have to put our Hypothesis to the test. 

 

you uhhh...think maybe you might want to go back and re read my post after the one you quoted here and maybe think about revising your attack against me?

 

Just maybe, I really was actually trying to get the full picture here. You know, not everyone has a hidden agenda. This is the 2nd time you have accused me of somethign I haven't done.

LOL.  And that is the second time that you claimed I attacked you.  You must be a very sensitive person.  The fact that you accuse people of attacking you has to make one wonder what your agenda is.   I will refrain from trying to discuss any topics with you in the future.   I apologize, I thought I was on a forum. 

Well, anwyay. I don't mind discussing the differences in our ideas. I had no issue with your claim that the OP didn't have all the facts. I cna't even argue that. In fact, I agree with it. But then you came down on me claiming my intentions were false. When I really wanted to see what was being said. Neither side was being very clear. I've never believed GW2 to be P2W.  We can disagree on our opinions as well, but lets just keep it to the topic and not about the person.

My initial response was on topic and did not reflect negative on any person.  My point was your question supported the OP because it is trying to further a conversation that can not be answered honestly in this post.  We need all the facts and, speculating about why or why not won't get us to a conclusion.

Then that's what you should have said in the 1st place. I can respect this answer. You feel the question was sided, that's fine. I can rephrase it. In retro spect, I worded it that way because the responses that people were throwing back at the OP didn't address the main concern about the supposed problem. I wasn't satisfied with "You can get golems in the game" or I can go earn 6G too" when in both cases, those answers can easily be dismissed and don't really address the supposed P2W quesiton. Iron Legion, however, did answer me with what i wanted to know.

I said that using different words.  You didnt get my point and evidently I didnt get your point.  It happens.  We are on a forum. 

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by SteeJanz

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

OP is dumb.

I could easily make 5 gold a day if I wanted to. It's really not hard to make gold once you hit lvl 80. 

Again, this is sorta related to my question right above.

I don't think it's about 5 or 6 gold. It's about who has more of it. If everyone is doing everyhing in the game possible to obtain everything they can. (Getting the golems for example) then everyone should have the same amount still. Then another player spends 5 gold on siege weapons and another spends 50. Does the group that spends 50 have an advantage? Yes or no? and why or whynot?

Isn't this true for everything.  In baseball, Yankee's vs. Royals.  There are gold sellers in every MMO for a reason.   The problem with the OP is that we don't have all the facts.  It is pure specualtion that all the golems were bought with gems.   He tries to make his point by showing on side dominating the others with the overall map pic, as others have pointed out, that is more likely do to the spy they have leading them.  

Your trying to support the OP's statements by more speculation.  Yes we can speculate that the server spending the most money will win.  We can also speculate that the server that is spends more time in WvW will win.  We can also speculate the the server with the most people in WvW will win.  We can speculate all we want but at some point we have to put our Hypothesis to the test. 

you uhhh...think maybe you might want to go back and re read my post after the one you quoted here and maybe think about revising your attack against me?

Just maybe, I really was actually trying to get the full picture here. You know, not everyone has a hidden agenda. This is the 2nd time you have accused me of somethign I haven't done.

The answer is in meowhead's post.

First off, I just want to point out, we had to deal with that guild "RUN" last week on Sanctum of Rall and believe it or not, they dominated without siege golems. Secondly, despite anyone having faith in a match making system, GW2 does in fact use one to determine what servers are pitted against each other. So even if rich people decide to keep forking over cash to purchase tons of siege weapons to win at W v W. All they are going to end up doing is fighting similar servers with similar rich people doing the exact same thing.

Is GW2 a pay to win style game? To some extent, yes, but it isn't a permanent problem as stated above.

Originally posted by Jeyhu

Originally posted by Ocenica

I'm curious.  Are you saying that those golems were purchased with real life cash essentially?  Are you absolutly sure someone isn't buying them with gold they made from the game? 

Your aruging that someone can win a match because they spend real life money but your basing it on this screen shot you took with what proof they we're bought with real life money?

This is an incomplete argument sir.  I feel you are just ranting about losing  a match.

Do you know someone who bought these golems with real life money?

Golems can't be bought with real money it's all in game, he's just crying.

 Correction ,yes they can.

Buy gems and go to the exchange and trade it for gold, and then use that gold to buy golems , you might want to Learn how some of these features work before you pass judgement.

If someone buys six golems and uses them well thats a waste of money right there, just make up anew strat and go along with it simple as that .