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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is there really an untapped market for sandbox MMOs? Smed offers an answer

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135 posts found
  toddze

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 2203

I am not a hater, I call it like I see it.

9/08/12 11:44:16 AM#61
You can have good PvE scripted content and still have longevity as well. But you can not give out raid gear like candy on halloween, and expect people to play long. When players can burn to cap in 2 weeks you can expect the longevity to be non existant. When the content is so mind nummingly easy a 5 year old can play, you cant expect longevity. Every single past PvE game or a pve/pvp mix game has been like this from GWII all the way back to a few years post WoW release.

Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI

  warchant

Novice Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 69

9/08/12 11:54:05 AM#62

oh man, sandbox is so good.

battles over territory and resources, gathering, player housing and cities outside of a specific zone, crafting.. it all could thrive so well. SWG was an excellent adventure into that territory. It may have been broken by certain changes but the spirit was there.

EVE is even more ambitious and at the higher levels of involvement is spectacular in it's achievements.

 

I think there is a market..how big, not sure. It's there though!

  WigBurld

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/11
Posts: 14

9/17/12 3:36:22 PM#63

For those of you interested in sandbox MMOs, you should definitely check out the upcoming game "Origins of Malu".

 

Here's an article explaining the game's vision and the direction it is currently going (very sandbox-y with player driven content). It was also at PAX just a few weeks ago, and got some very positive responses. 

 

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2326

9/18/12 12:55:48 PM#64

"emergent gameplay experiences"

Isn't that what everyone has been begging for on these forums? It's a shame some people rather hold a grudge.

"put down their own bases there and other players can come and obliterate them."

That is fucking awesome! I didn't know PS2 would take it even further than base captures. Smed is doing exactly what some of us "niche" MMO gamers are wanting.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

"blocked nariusseldon since forever"

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2775

9/18/12 1:02:16 PM#65

All of this from the man whose company lanuched probably the best PvE/crafting centric sandboxish MMOs yet  (SWG) and then proceeded to mismanage than game into the ground, largely by removing many of the sandbox elements that he is now espousing. Yeah, right.

The NGE was the biggest step away from sandbox play done in any MMO yet, and the Smed was the guy behind that.

Trust not the Smed.

 

(P.S. And PS2 looks to be just a slightly dressed up shooter, I played a good bit in the beta this last weekend. As with other recent SOE offerings, this one looks to have very little lasting appeal.)

 

  Reklaw

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6168

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

9/18/12 1:35:35 PM#66
Originally posted by stratasaurus

No there is no untapped market for Sandbox games.  sometimes companies make the big mistake of listening too much to what players say they want.  Bioware totally fell into this trap.  Everyone said hey we don't want endgame grinding and progression like other MMOs have we want a MMO based around story.  Well they really got exactly what they asked for and then 3 months in huge drops in subs and game in spinning downwards.

 

Same thing with Sandbox games, everyone likes the CONCEPT of a sandbox game but most players really don't like the actual reality of playing a sandbox game.  Lets face it, there are not as many hardcore MMO players anymore, people are starting to prioritize and lots of the old MMO players are moving into a more casual role.  Sandbox games do not work for casual players, it is not that they are harder then themepark games it is just that it takes a lot more time to advance and do things.  Now you may not agree with themepark style but the truth is the only Sandbox game that could ever hold over 1M players would be a hybrid sandbox/themepark.

Now in my opinion I feel there is a hugh following that will or want to play a sandbox game, but......for some reason when we look at the more sandboxish MMO's it seems developers aswell certain players feel that PVP makes a sandbox. Obvious a sandbox MMORPG does need PVP, but in a true sandbox game (again in my opinion) everything is optional.

So if a sandbox game has forced PVP then to me it aint a sandbox game because it does not allow me to be free to do what I want but am again forced at the wishes of the developers because they couldn't come up with allot more feature's then take the easy path of PVP so-called content.

It's the dynamics in a player run economy, decay on all weapons/armor which create's a market for those into crafting, housing but fully free so no you need to be in a guild to place a house within the guild base but place a house where you desire.

It has to be a virtual world, where it's obvious that certain things are sci-fi or fantasy, but overall the world needs to act as real as possible and before anyone say's I play game to escape reality let me ask them how many dragons have they slay'd in rl, how many spaceships have they build, how many differerent planets, worlds have they seen in their live.

I just want to immerse myself within a universe or a unknown world in in those worlds there is more to it then war, as we already have so many game genre's that already focus on combat and MMORPG use to be a genre that mixed allot of genre's together.

  TdogSkal

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/11/06
Posts: 1259

Do not fear death, Death will come a knocking anytime it wants.

9/18/12 1:41:26 PM#67
Originally posted by Burntvet

All of this from the man whose company lanuched probably the best PvE/crafting centric sandboxish MMOs yet  (SWG) and then proceeded to mismanage than game into the ground, largely by removing many of the sandbox elements that he is now espousing. Yeah, right.

The NGE was the biggest step away from sandbox play done in any MMO yet, and the Smed was the guy behind that.

Trust not the Smed.

 

(P.S. And PS2 looks to be just a slightly dressed up shooter, I played a good bit in the beta this last weekend. As with other recent SOE offerings, this one looks to have very little lasting appeal.)

 

False, it has been proven that LA was behind the NGE not Smed.  LA wanted WoW like numbers and demand SOE change the game to fit into the WoW Mold and get more players.  That failed horrible.

 

P.S. That is your Opinion and many do not share it.  PS2 will be bigger than DUST and PS1 was.

Sooner or Later

  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/18/12 1:43:15 PM#68
Originally posted by TdogSkal
Originally posted by Burntvet

All of this from the man whose company lanuched probably the best PvE/crafting centric sandboxish MMOs yet  (SWG) and then proceeded to mismanage than game into the ground, largely by removing many of the sandbox elements that he is now espousing. Yeah, right.

The NGE was the biggest step away from sandbox play done in any MMO yet, and the Smed was the guy behind that.

Trust not the Smed.

 

(P.S. And PS2 looks to be just a slightly dressed up shooter, I played a good bit in the beta this last weekend. As with other recent SOE offerings, this one looks to have very little lasting appeal.)

 

False, it has been proven that LA was behind the NGE not Smed.  LA wanted WoW like numbers and demand SOE change the game to fit into the WoW Mold and get more players.  That failed horrible.

Not only that, but Smed has admitted several times it was a huge mistake and that he's sorry and regrets it. If anything were to convince a developer that sandbox is the way to go, it'd be that.

  Greymoor

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/30/10
Posts: 812

9/18/12 1:45:17 PM#69

DF Unholy Wars... coming 20th Nov, Sandbox conquest dream

  Rasputin

Novice Member

Joined: 7/07/03
Posts: 618

9/18/12 3:42:00 PM#70
Originally posted by Loktofeit

[...]

Smedley:  [...] At some point as an industry we need to realize that we have already lost the race to outpace players in making content. I personally thought SWTOR was a great game. I loved Diablo III. The problem is you get to the endgame and as game makers it's not just expensive. it's impossible to stay ahead of the curve.
 
Think about this statement - If WoW had come out yesterday.. at what point would people be "done" with the content. We need to focus on game systems that are perpetual and give players a lot more control over what they can do rather than JUST putting yet another dragon in front of them with scripted content. We need to be doing both in order to be successful. And that's our plan.

Source: http://themittani.com/features/mittani-interviews-soe-ceo-john-smedley

Many people said that 10 years ago. Welcome to where MMOs should have been, Smedley.

  shinkan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/05/07
Posts: 224

9/18/12 3:48:41 PM#71

I wont buy shit from smed, and his praise and stories are bs like anything he serves.

  Uhwop

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1664

9/18/12 3:51:20 PM#72
Originally posted by pyrofreak
Originally posted by Hazelle
Originally posted by Sephros
Player generated objectives are huge in the longevity of a game. Glad someone is starting to read whats been infront of them for a decade or more.

It's Smedley dude.  If you were talking to him about peanuts he'd praise the offering peanuts to players in mmorpgs and suggest that SOE is developing in that direction.

I've never seen Smed described so aptly.

 

Also Mittens isn't a troll, he's a professional bullshitter. There's a difference.

 

The bullshitter makes money.

 I know, that one article made him a millionaire, right?

You probably don't play EVE, or if you do or did, never had anything to do with the GSF; either as an ally member or enemy. 

it's actually funny, becaue the people who have the most to say about the guy, never actually have anything to do with him. 

Seems a little silly people hate on an avatar and transfer that to the real man, who coinsidentally is raising tens of thousands of dollars for the widow of a real friend of his.  I can only imagine the kinds of things you do for people.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7331

9/18/12 3:54:20 PM#73
I'm not even a fps player, but ps2 is shaping up to be pretty epic.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2775

9/18/12 4:05:12 PM#74
Originally posted by TdogSkal
Originally posted by Burntvet

All of this from the man whose company lanuched probably the best PvE/crafting centric sandboxish MMOs yet  (SWG) and then proceeded to mismanage than game into the ground, largely by removing many of the sandbox elements that he is now espousing. Yeah, right.

The NGE was the biggest step away from sandbox play done in any MMO yet, and the Smed was the guy behind that.

Trust not the Smed.

 

(P.S. And PS2 looks to be just a slightly dressed up shooter, I played a good bit in the beta this last weekend. As with other recent SOE offerings, this one looks to have very little lasting appeal.)

 

False, it has been proven that LA was behind the NGE not Smed.  LA wanted WoW like numbers and demand SOE change the game to fit into the WoW Mold and get more players.  That failed horrible.

 

First, if there is such proof that LA was "responsible" for it, I have never seen it.

Second and more importantly, SOE personel were SOLELY responsible for executing and coding every single thing in SWG and they are wholly responsible for what a buggy, unfinished, broken mess that game was. Twice as much for the NGE, which SOE people programmed 100% of.

Not a single LA person ever wrote a single line of code for SWG, that was all SOE, and frankly the broken, buggy, and unfinished state is a prime reason SWG failed, as much as anything else. And that is all on Smed's management.

 

I need not also list the numerous lies/misrepresentations Smed has publically made over the years, the list would be too long.

In short, nothing Smed says can be believed with a record like that, and based on SOE's long and undistinguished history, it is very doubtful they could ever make a techinally solid, low bug/exploit game, even if they wanted to.

The chances of any project Smed  is ever involved with and coming out well are very small.

And yes, talk, especially from a person with such a terrible record of telling the truth such as Smed, is very cheap, indeed.

 

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 6122

9/18/12 4:19:24 PM#75
whats the evolution of Player made content in MMO?

  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2482

World > Quest Progression

9/18/12 5:34:50 PM#76
Originally posted by bcbully
I'm not even a fps player, but ps2 is shaping up to be pretty epic.

 

Agreed and if EQN is anything like I hope it is I'll have a reason to buy a Station Pass.  After watching videos of the environments in PS2 using the Forgelight engine (light projection, realistic morning/evening, etc.) I am really excited for the world that EQN will have.

 

If you take that game world and add a structured storyline with "emergent gameplay" (which I assume to be player creation tools) that allows some freedom of play I think EQN could be something special.  It's certainly the type of game I've been looking to make a home in.  You just can't do that anymore in games that develop everything from top to bottom.

 

My main concerns about the game are combat and questing.  Time will tell on these things.

  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

9/18/12 7:55:25 PM#77

Hey wow, that'a actually something cool from Smed! WTG! :)

 

"At some point as an industry we need to realize that we have already lost the race to outpace players in making content. I personally thought SWTOR was a great game. I loved Diablo III. The problem is you get to the endgame and as game makers it's not just expensive. it's impossible to stay ahead of the curve. Think about this statement - If WoW had come out yesterday.. at what point would people be "done" with the content. We need to focus on game systems that are perpetual and give players a lot more control over what they can do rather than JUST putting yet another dragon in front of them with scripted content."

 

If only these were golden words imprinted on every room in every MMO studio ever!

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Blossie

Novice Member

Joined: 7/02/12
Posts: 8

9/18/12 8:04:16 PM#78
Lol talking to smedly about sandbox games , the man that oversaw the destruction of the best sandbox game ever made (SWG) , i guess he should know what not to do............ narrr its smedly he never learns :)
  Fadedbomb

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/19/06
Posts: 2149

9/18/12 8:09:43 PM#79
Originally posted by Loktofeit

TheMittani: You’ve mentioned a desire for more sandbox MMOs in your Reddit AMA, and sandboxes are obviously a major draw for EVE players. Do you have plans for adding sandbox elements to PS2, and if so, would you like to discuss them? If there really is an untapped market for sandbox MMOs, why haven’t we seen more of them, besides Eve and SWG?

Smedley: Sandbox elements - SOE is redefining itself as a creator of emergent gameplay experiences. That's our future. You can call it sandbox but it's so much more than that. A good example is Player owned bases in Planetside 2. That's coming. We're going to make huge continents that are empty and have vast resources on them and players can fight it out and put down their own bases there and other players can come and obliterate them. Sound familiar EVE Players? Actually we had something like this in Star Wars Galaxies too. THAT is content. At some point as an industry we need to realize that we have already lost the race to outpace players in making content. I personally thought SWTOR was a great game. I loved Diablo III. The problem is you get to the endgame and as game makers it's not just expensive. it's impossible to stay ahead of the curve.
 
Think about this statement - If WoW had come out yesterday.. at what point would people be "done" with the content. We need to focus on game systems that are perpetual and give players a lot more control over what they can do rather than JUST putting yet another dragon in front of them with scripted content. We need to be doing both in order to be successful. And that's our plan.

Source: http://themittani.com/features/mittani-interviews-soe-ceo-john-smedley

Been saying that for YEARS, yet constantly shot down by people who have only experienced linear static Themeparks. I'm surprised Smedley was absolutely so spot on with this. It seems like he understands where thae market needs to go, but not necesarrily how to get there.

Been in Planetside 2 beta for months now, but the core issue with that product is that it is built around PayToWin. That and their graphics department has no idea how to NOT use over-blooming effects to make the game NOT look like crap.

That, and PS2 players nothing like Planetside, and the "Team" element isn't there.

 

We'll see how Planetside 2 does at launch to see if Smedley REALLY understands how to do a Sandbox game. Although, I DO like his redefinition of "emergent gameplay".

The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.

  Telondariel

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/11/10
Posts: 905

9/18/12 10:47:37 PM#80
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by Loktofeit

TheMittani: You’ve mentioned a desire for more sandbox MMOs in your Reddit AMA, and sandboxes are obviously a major draw for EVE players. Do you have plans for adding sandbox elements to PS2, and if so, would you like to discuss them? If there really is an untapped market for sandbox MMOs, why haven’t we seen more of them, besides Eve and SWG?

Smedley: Sandbox elements - SOE is redefining itself as a creator of emergent gameplay experiences. That's our future. You can call it sandbox but it's so much more than that. A good example is Player owned bases in Planetside 2. That's coming. We're going to make huge continents that are empty and have vast resources on them and players can fight it out and put down their own bases there and other players can come and obliterate them. Sound familiar EVE Players? Actually we had something like this in Star Wars Galaxies too. THAT is content. At some point as an industry we need to realize that we have already lost the race to outpace players in making content. I personally thought SWTOR was a great game. I loved Diablo III. The problem is you get to the endgame and as game makers it's not just expensive. it's impossible to stay ahead of the curve.
 
Think about this statement - If WoW had come out yesterday.. at what point would people be "done" with the content. We need to focus on game systems that are perpetual and give players a lot more control over what they can do rather than JUST putting yet another dragon in front of them with scripted content. We need to be doing both in order to be successful. And that's our plan.

Source: http://themittani.com/features/mittani-interviews-soe-ceo-john-smedley

Finally, one of the suites wakes up and realizes where the real profit is to be made in the MMo space.

If you knew Smed and his history of gaming destruction, lies, and completely mismanaging any level of corporate-consumer relations, then you would realise that he's never "gotten" it.  He is very good about putting a glossy sheen on any interview he does, but his truths are so thin and fragile that the multitudes of current and former SOE customers cut right through his tripe immediately. 

Smed thinks purely about his narcissistic needs and little for his paying customers, the players of SOE games.  He hasn't woken up.  He's realized nothing.  Are you aware of what he's done to thousands of his European playerbase?  How he's mismanaged EQ2's development over the last 3 years? 

I beleive nothing that he says.  His track record is very, very poor.

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