Originally posted by Purutzil

I don't think a leveling game will exist much like that anymore with everyone so dead set on end game

Maybe that's the problem, there is an end game.

Maybe "end game" should be from lvl 10 onward (or some low number). Except the higher you go or the more skills you acquire, if it's horizontal leveling, then the more effective you are against opponents.

In Lineage 2 no one said "oh boy, when I get to end game I'll be able to siege and raid".

Instead, they just sieged and raided (the few raids that there were) and if they needed to be more powerful they put more time into it.

I'd like to have a very lengthy journey of leveling. Either no lvl cap or one that takes about 3 years to complete everything. Although after the 4-8 month mark the progression needs to be purely optional (horizontal). By then you have a character that can do everything you want minus a few extras or different builds. This really seems to be the way to go for long running MMOs. Yeah, some like the short term progression and hop from game to game often, that's fine, but every MMO doesn't need to be that way.

I'm playing Wurm.

My character (the only one, no alts, just this one character) has 36 days /played now - and he would be around mid-level if Wurm had levels. I know of a character that has over 170 days /played - and I'm sure he's not the only one with that amount of time.

Obviously I don't miss levelling over years because, well, I play a game where one levels over the years. Okay, I do not grind.

I think the problem is the whole "I must get levels in order to do the fun stuff".

As opposed to all this fun stuff where leveling makes it easier or makes one more effective but there is always something fun to do at your current level.

The other issue is gear but if there is going to be some sort of gear progression then maybe one can break down their gear toward crafting new gear or adding enchants, etc.

Or dont' have gear progression per se, just have several levelsof gear where the highest is hard to make and expensive to make and the lowest is cheap but "ok" and possible to use though not desirable.

I agree with the OP. Leveling to cap should be a major accomplishment in your character's "life".

Choosing what character to be your main should be a major decision, because you will be with that character for a very long time. However in GW2, it wasn't a major decision at all. My major decision was what FIVE characters I'd make...not my main.

Originally posted by Psychow

I agree with the OP. Leveling to cap should be a major accomplishment in your character's "life".

Why? 

I mean, in a game like Wizardry Online, I can see that being a major accomplishment, as the design of the game is to not only prevent you from reaching max level but actually to try to permanently kill you in each dungeon on the way there, but in the majority of MMOs past and present, has getting to the cap required anything more than just endlessly killing mobs for hours on end? I don't see where the admirable or noteworthy act is there. Yes, I know, that's considered 'flaming' around here but I really don't get it.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Psychow

I agree with the OP. Leveling to cap should be a major accomplishment in your character's "life".

Why? 

I mean, in a game like Wizardry Online, I can see that being a major accomplishment, as the design of the game is to not only prevent you from reaching max level but actually to try to permanently kill you in each dungeon on the way there, but in the majority of MMOs past and present, has getting to the cap required anything more than just endlessly killing mobs for hours on end? I don't see where the admirable or noteworthy act is there. Yes, I know, that's considered 'flaming' around here but I really don't get it.

 

Then maybe that's the answer. To make it so that leveling is an accomplishment and one that makes sense as an accomplishment. Not just repeating the same thing over and over.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Psychow

I agree with the OP. Leveling to cap should be a major accomplishment in your character's "life".

Why? 

I mean, in a game like Wizardry Online, I can see that being a major accomplishment, as the design of the game is to not only prevent you from reaching max level but actually to try to permanently kill you in each dungeon on the way there, but in the majority of MMOs past and present, has getting to the cap required anything more than just endlessly killing mobs for hours on end? I don't see where the admirable or noteworthy act is there. Yes, I know, that's considered 'flaming' around here but I really don't get it. 

Well, when a child graduates highschool, isn't that considered a major accomplishment? Even though the vast majority do? Or  would you just go to your child on graduation day and say "gee...took you long enough!" (Wow, that would be bad...lol)

It took me 7 months to level up in Vanilla WoW. There were times that I would just stop leveling to go see stuff or kill mobs that "needed killin'".

Yes, I miss that. I've never been a speed-leveler, but I do miss longer journeys.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Psychow

I agree with the OP. Leveling to cap should be a major accomplishment in your character's "life".

Why? 

I mean, in a game like Wizardry Online, I can see that being a major accomplishment, as the design of the game is to not only prevent you from reaching max level but actually to try to permanently kill you in each dungeon on the way there, but in the majority of MMOs past and present, has getting to the cap required anything more than just endlessly killing mobs for hours on end? I don't see where the admirable or noteworthy act is there. Yes, I know, that's considered 'flaming' around here but I really don't get it.

Then maybe that's the answer. To make it so that leveling is an accomplishment and one that makes sense as an accomplishment. Not just repeating the same thing over and over.

I'd really like to see content like the original AC dungeons and the early design ofthe UO dungeons in a modern MMO. Traps, levers, trap doors, poison gasses, flood rooms, mutliple teams to complete a goal. If the game world had real and present dangers or path-determining choices that affected advancement, I could easily see how being a high level character would be an accomplishment. Or, better yet, advancement that was the result of some level of social interaction.

Lineage 2 is a great example of that last part. Any jackass with time and patience can grind their way to the cap. You don't need player skill, character skill, intelligence or anything more than three fingers and a very comfortable seat. However, when you see someone flying around on a massive wyvern, leading an army of 100+ to a castle siege, that's a certain level of accomplishment that most of the time requires a good bit more skill and interaction than just hitting the cap. That they are at cap isn't an accomplishment - the legion that follows them is.

Originally posted by Psychow

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Psychow

I agree with the OP. Leveling to cap should be a major accomplishment in your character's "life".

Why? 

I mean, in a game like Wizardry Online, I can see that being a major accomplishment, as the design of the game is to not only prevent you from reaching max level but actually to try to permanently kill you in each dungeon on the way there, but in the majority of MMOs past and present, has getting to the cap required anything more than just endlessly killing mobs for hours on end? I don't see where the admirable or noteworthy act is there. Yes, I know, that's considered 'flaming' around here but I really don't get it. 

 

Well, when a child graduates highschool, isn't that considered a major accomplishment? Even though the vast majority do? Or  would you just go to your child on graduation day and say "gee...took you long enough!" (Wow, that would be bad...lol)

My fear is that you genuinely do not see the difference between completing 12 years of education and grinding to max level in an MMO.

Originally posted by Gravarg

I guess you could call me old school, or a grumpy old man, but I truly miss the old days when it took at least 6 months to level to max level.  In today's games it takes maybe a week, if you're slow, to get to max level.  I truly believe that in MMOs, unlike other games, the "end" should never be there.  Yes, today's developers add in content for capped characters to do, but it's just not the same as leveling up.  Take Guild Wars 2 for instance, I heard that a player leveled from level 1-80 in 2 days...really?  That couldn't be fun at all, and it misses the whole point of MMOs.  I think alot of developers (and players) have forgotten that in MMOs the "endgame" isn't what MMOs are about.  It's about exploration, discovery, learning new things, and yes killing.  Old MMOs had more to do with learning than today's MMOs.  Today's MMOs you can log in day one, and never have to go find some spreadsheet telling you which weapon is best for your level.  Today's MMOs you never have to go to a wiki, or heaven-forbid, buy an actual book with a map and how-tos, just so you don't get lost.

 

I know there will probably never be a game like old EQ or old DAoC or old Ultima Online or really old Neverwinter Nights, back when it took a minimum of 6 months to get to the end.  Heck, in the original DAoC it took longer to get the last 2 levels than it does to get to cap in today's games.  Alas, there is no real reason for developers to make games like this anymore.  The majority of players aren't like me.  They want thier rewards upfront and as soon as possible.  They don't want to spend hours on end killing things or doing quests just to get a single level.  They want 20 levels in that time.

 

Just my two cents from an old dinosaur lol.

+1, I agree. I miss those days.

GW2 was the perfect game to bring back long leveling spans, since friends could still play with each other in lower lvl content, yet they went for the easy route. So now we have people maxing 2 toons to 80 in 4 days. Such an exciting vibrant world with large explorable zones, only to be sidetracked by the leveling speed..

Originally posted by Rossboss
The reason why everyone is so dead set on being "endgame" is because developers try to reward players for reaching the end of the game, like in platformers reward you with another character or boss rush mode or a different playing mode. The only problem is that the design of the game is that the players get the big payoff at the end, instead of having milestone levels with large payoffs along the way and a massive one at the end. Also, there's a huge trend in PvP only content and level is important in PvP. This would be fine except that players just make more characters to have lower level PvP accounts. There's really very little reward in playing through any MMORPG more than once. It's tough to see character progression if it literally takes weeks/months to level up. I'd imagine you'd get tired of running and killing rats for quest giver "A" and most new players don't read or care about story lines.

Very good point. I think recent MMOs have looked toward ways to remedy that. RIFT, TERA and GW2 all took steps to add more endgame-style content throughout the game. RIFT's rifts, TERA's BAMs and a lot of the GW2 features seem geared toward creating a more even endgame experience throughout the game. Heck, in GW2, I've come across low level content that is comparabe to what many MMOs relegate to 'epic' endgame content.

I miss it, god do I miss it.

I miss it so much I intentionally slow my playtime down so the journey will last longer.

Last game with a decent grind was Aion.  Had a lot of fun with that one.

I don't miss having to sit for an hour to get my mana back so I could get back in the saddle again, or waiting 20 minutes on a boat so I can get to an xp spot that is available and good, nor do I miss sitting on one spot while some puller pulls the same 5 mobs for 5 - 6 hours, or having to buy a second account so I can heal my warrior to keep downtime at a minimum..

All those timesinks and more I don't bother to mention, to slow levelling down to a crawl. I don't miss those. If a game can stretch out the leveling pace without throwing tons of stupid timesinks at me then I'm with the OP all the way.

Originally posted by grimal

I miss it, god do I miss it.

I miss it so much I intentionally slow my playtime down so the journey will last longer.

Last game with a decent grind was Aion.  Had a lot of fun with that one.

have you tried Vanguard? Not only is a really good MMO with old school styling and modern graphics (I didnt say cutting edge, trolls) but it even has a skill that lets you adjust skil gain. I forget if that skill turns off gain completely or just reduces it.

Go back a few years and look at WoW when they released Wrath. One thing that became abundantly obvious.

With the advent of DeathKnights to WoW, it was proven that all original contnet was deemed obsolete and irrelevent beyond anyhting more than a stepping stone to the current content.

Seems like a waste to me. The most ironic part of this is that the only ones who didn't get this fact was Blizzard themselves. They went back and spent a huge amount of resourses redeveloping all that obsolete and irrelevent content. LOL

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Rossboss
The reason why everyone is so dead set on being "endgame" is because developers try to reward players for reaching the end of the game, like in platformers reward you with another character or boss rush mode or a different playing mode. The only problem is that the design of the game is that the players get the big payoff at the end, instead of having milestone levels with large payoffs along the way and a massive one at the end. Also, there's a huge trend in PvP only content and level is important in PvP. This would be fine except that players just make more characters to have lower level PvP accounts. There's really very little reward in playing through any MMORPG more than once. It's tough to see character progression if it literally takes weeks/months to level up. I'd imagine you'd get tired of running and killing rats for quest giver "A" and most new players don't read or care about story lines.

Very good point. I think recent MMOs have looked toward ways to remedy that. RIFT, TERA and GW2 all took steps to add more endgame-style content throughout the game. RIFT's rifts, TERA's BAMs and a lot of the GW2 features seem geared toward creating a more even endgame experience throughout the game. Heck, in GW2, I've come across low level content that is comparabe to what many MMOs relegate to 'epic' endgame content.

As I play F2P games only now, there has been very little in the way of content developement towards what the P2P games offer. I find this to be a bit unnerving as F2P is essentially the future of MMORPGs. MMORPGs could take a pointer or two from the oldschool RPGs, add some challenges along the way, and force players through certain content to give players incentive to not just blast through the game. Also, most MMORPGs have ways of skipping content by way of powerleveling or other means, which means that players will care even less about the character developing along the way. MMORPGs just don't put enough emphasis on their content and feed into the players' lust for shiny things and level up madness.

The problem i see with this is that it wouldn't work well in teh traditional mmorpg setup of today. It would cause insane pvp inbalances, difficulty in pve grouping, tons of wasted previous content, and who knows what else.

The thing is, i do agree with the idea of a "hard to reach plane". Final dungeons, quest lines, pvp arenas, anything that would require lots of time and effort to reach. I gives a long term goal.

Of course, the majority of the content must be outside of this. Also, using normal levels would go back to the problems i meantioned, so, horizontal progression or something else would fit instead.