Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by bubaluba
If no trinity is good be sure that Blizzard would adopt this idea. They tried to create something new in gw2 but only what they did is simplification of everything.

Not really, Blizzard wont totally revamp the base mechanics of Wow no matter what, not worth the chanse.

And it is not simplification, the trinity is as simple as anything can get. 1 guy tank, 1 guy heal, 3 guys DPS is still the simplest mechnic around. Often everyone can just stand still and rotate skills.

Then of course trinity can be more advanced with CC and buffing, but you really dont need them in modern MMOs like you did in EQ.

They don't need to. It's GW2 that has the rez-fest type of dungeoning, not WoW. There's little to no strategy in dungeons in GW2, at least the trinity sets up the basic strategy from the start. As for simpler, I'd argue GW2 IS simpler - they didn't have to mess with class balance by doing it their way, you don't need any type of group, etc. But whatever, some like it. I'm sure we'll see in the next 30 days how well the game is sticking.

Originally posted by Apropo

Originally posted by Sylvarii

ArenaNet haven't removed the holy trinity of tanking damage, healing damage, and dealing damage in Guild Wars 2. They consolidated it. Everyone can tank, everyone can heal, and everyone can nuke. 

Nope,the holy trinity dispite ArenaNets claims is alive and kicking in GW2.

(TL/DR = I do not miss the Trinity and if I did, I'd go play the countless games that have that system.  I do not want that system in Guild Wars 2 and if they changed to that system I'd rip the game out of my computer and move on!)

Since you said "the holy trinity is alive and kicking in GW2" I feel like something needs clarification. In a dungeon within Guild Wars 2, There is No specific class that can only be a healer? Nobody can only Tank and all classes can, if they so choose only be dps?  Your blanket over exaggerated statement and definition is NOT what the standard meaning of "Trinity" is.  Every game before Guild Wars 2 that defined the term does not fit your overexaggerated blanket consolidation term. Infact the "Trinity" when it refers to MMORPG's usually =

1 specific class is a TANK the entire battle.

1 specific class is a HEALER the entire encounter.

1 specific class is a DPS the entire battle.

This is why so many people have had to sit around LFG 1 Specific Role and wait for the specific class to come around and heal or tank an instance.... The major flaw in your statement is "everyone can heal" WRONG, nobody can traditionaly heal, and if you played any character like a traditional tank, your characters self heal would do you absolutely no good.   So no, flat out no.  Now I suppose if you wanted to change the definition along with the twisted delusional consolidation of roles, then okay I guess yep lets all change the meaning and move on...  Sorry doesn't work that way, we don't just make up our own definitions for the hell of it and then expect everyone to take anything we have to say seriously.

There are no specific classes for specific roles in Guild Wars 2 and NONE fit the traditional "HEALER" or even "TANK" categories, saying so is over simplifying and over exaggerating the terms.  Each class has the ability to Support, DPS, and Mitigate damage as well as coordinate all of that with each other via Combo Fields.  The key is to switch roles accordingly depending on the situation in the battle.  Just because each class has the ability to do all the things needed in a given battle doesn't mean there isn't need for coordination and job assignments.  Seems like simple logic to me but I guess its not. But if you tell someone who is use to the Trinity system from WoW or any other game, to try and impliment that same exact traditional system into Guild Wars 2, you get what we have here. Crying about missing the traditional Trinity...

 

Now to the OP's Question.  "Do I miss the Trinity?"

Being a former Raid and Dungeon group leader for hundreds and hudreds of countless hours in over a variety of different games for more then a decade, I am extremely comfortable with the "Trinity" system. Unlike some other naive individuals, I'm not confused as to what the definition is.  I've done it, I've taught it, I've practice it for an extremely long time.   It is a crude system needed to be in place in previous games to help people fit roles specifically so they didn't have to think for themselves.  All anyone needed to do was pick the role they wanted to fit and level to max, practice that role and there you have it.   No thinking needed because you knew the specific limited role you were going to fill.  How ever the class system in RIFT pleased me, it was still limiting and still caused encounters to rely on specific roles.

I DO NOT MISS this limiting and old system.   I hated waiting around for a worthwhile healer, or a tank that didn't have some kind of complex... Or the blame game, "Tank didn't hold agro", "Healer didn't get out of red circles" "DPS Pulled more mobs" Now that I've played Guild Wars 2 it has made me DESPISE the trinity, absolutely despise it...

Guild Wars 2 current system needs a bit of fine tuning to make sure each member of a group can clearly distinguish the combo fields.    I don't think there is an issue with Guild Wars 2's system I think the players who are so engrained with "gaming muscle memory" are having a hard time learning, adapting and using this system and then crying for their old "baby blanket and bottle" trinity system.  

 

It is hard to think for yourself, it is hard to coordinate a group and expect the people you are grouping with to fit specific roles you need.   That is part of being a Raid Leader / Dungeon Group Leader.  You sit down find the people who are the best at certain roles and you build your team with them.   In Guild Wars 2 you need people who are quick at CC, people who are quick at responding to bleeds / poisons with cleanses, people who are extremely aware of their surroundings and much more.    I find Guild Wars 2 system far more comlpex and that is causing even some of my closest friends to cry about no trinity, which when a group leader worth his salt comes in and orginizes the party, they stopped crying and enjoyed themselves.

Here is the problem group leaders will face.  They will need to know the capabilities of each class to determine which roles from each class they will need to fit the desired jobs within his team.

 

 

More like total rework than "fine tuning" IMO.

Originally posted by Purutzil
Damage, CC, Support. Thats their trinity. If you miss one of those, your going to suffer greatly for it.

It's a little different though, because one class might fufill each of those roles at different times during a single encounter. So its a little misleading to imply that theres someone dedicated to CC or Support.

Those threads are starting to get boring by now.

Taking out the trinity did NOT make things simpler. Stating such thing is completely absurd and unfounded. Yes, things may LOOK simpler according to your perspective (a level 30 surely still thinks that every build is "doable" and works - you just invite people with random builds and the dungeon will surely go smooth, right?), but when you get to explorable high-end dungeons and tournaments, things really don't work like that.

You don't have tank/dps/healer anymore, but when forming a explo group you'll want to search separately for condition/ power/ CC/ etc builds. You can't get a group with players with power builds and expect to either survive or take down bosses within a reasonable amount of time.

And the strategies are there. It's not a random killfest and buttonsmash like most new players think. For example there are some groups running around with confusion-based specs and builds to counter high output damage melee bosses (like thief doppelgangers). Other bosses for example get rid of one cond every X seconds, so you have to cover your bleeds and vulnerabilities with fast conds like burn.

And seriously, what's the deal with you people expecting full strategies to appear less than 1 month after a completely new spec system has developed? Yes, there are few group spec builds so far, but just wait a few weeks and you'll start to see the infamous "3-2 engi/necro burncover bleed"-like group builds popping around.

Lastly, you couldn't be more wrong regarding it being easier to find groups. For low-level content yes, because you don't really specialized groups to do story mode easy dungeons, or even explo non-speed runs - which I hope isn't the point you're trying to make. But when you get to high-end content, you'll start seeing people looking for "blowi gs blink mesmers" for tournaments and speed runs.

People need to play the game before having a opinion about everything.

Originally posted by Onecrazyguy

Originally posted by Apropo

Originally posted by Sylvarii

ArenaNet haven't removed the holy trinity of tanking damage, healing damage, and dealing damage in Guild Wars 2. They consolidated it. Everyone can tank, everyone can heal, and everyone can nuke. 

Nope,the holy trinity dispite ArenaNets claims is alive and kicking in GW2.

(TL/DR = I do not miss the Trinity and if I did, I'd go play the countless games that have that system.  I do not want that system in Guild Wars 2 and if they changed to that system I'd rip the game out of my computer and move on!)

Since you said "the holy trinity is alive and kicking in GW2" I feel like something needs clarification. In a dungeon within Guild Wars 2, There is No specific class that can only be a healer? Nobody can only Tank and all classes can, if they so choose only be dps?  Your blanket over exaggerated statement and definition is NOT what the standard meaning of "Trinity" is.  Every game before Guild Wars 2 that defined the term does not fit your overexaggerated blanket consolidation term. Infact the "Trinity" when it refers to MMORPG's usually =

1 specific class is a TANK the entire battle.

1 specific class is a HEALER the entire encounter.

1 specific class is a DPS the entire battle.

This is why so many people have had to sit around LFG 1 Specific Role and wait for the specific class to come around and heal or tank an instance.... The major flaw in your statement is "everyone can heal" WRONG, nobody can traditionaly heal, and if you played any character like a traditional tank, your characters self heal would do you absolutely no good.   So no, flat out no.  Now I suppose if you wanted to change the definition along with the twisted delusional consolidation of roles, then okay I guess yep lets all change the meaning and move on...  Sorry doesn't work that way, we don't just make up our own definitions for the hell of it and then expect everyone to take anything we have to say seriously.

There are no specific classes for specific roles in Guild Wars 2 and NONE fit the traditional "HEALER" or even "TANK" categories, saying so is over simplifying and over exaggerating the terms.  Each class has the ability to Support, DPS, and Mitigate damage as well as coordinate all of that with each other via Combo Fields.  The key is to switch roles accordingly depending on the situation in the battle.  Just because each class has the ability to do all the things needed in a given battle doesn't mean there isn't need for coordination and job assignments.  Seems like simple logic to me but I guess its not. But if you tell someone who is use to the Trinity system from WoW or any other game, to try and impliment that same exact traditional system into Guild Wars 2, you get what we have here. Crying about missing the traditional Trinity...

 

Now to the OP's Question.  "Do I miss the Trinity?"

Being a former Raid and Dungeon group leader for hundreds and hudreds of countless hours in over a variety of different games for more then a decade, I am extremely comfortable with the "Trinity" system. Unlike some other naive individuals, I'm not confused as to what the definition is.  I've done it, I've taught it, I've practice it for an extremely long time.   It is a crude system needed to be in place in previous games to help people fit roles specifically so they didn't have to think for themselves.  All anyone needed to do was pick the role they wanted to fit and level to max, practice that role and there you have it.   No thinking needed because you knew the specific limited role you were going to fill.  How ever the class system in RIFT pleased me, it was still limiting and still caused encounters to rely on specific roles.

I DO NOT MISS this limiting and old system.   I hated waiting around for a worthwhile healer, or a tank that didn't have some kind of complex... Or the blame game, "Tank didn't hold agro", "Healer didn't get out of red circles" "DPS Pulled more mobs" Now that I've played Guild Wars 2 it has made me DESPISE the trinity, absolutely despise it...

Guild Wars 2 current system needs a bit of fine tuning to make sure each member of a group can clearly distinguish the combo fields.    I don't think there is an issue with Guild Wars 2's system I think the players who are so engrained with "gaming muscle memory" are having a hard time learning, adapting and using this system and then crying for their old "baby blanket and bottle" trinity system.  

 

It is hard to think for yourself, it is hard to coordinate a group and expect the people you are grouping with to fit specific roles you need.   That is part of being a Raid Leader / Dungeon Group Leader.  You sit down find the people who are the best at certain roles and you build your team with them.   In Guild Wars 2 you need people who are quick at CC, people who are quick at responding to bleeds / poisons with cleanses, people who are extremely aware of their surroundings and much more.    I find Guild Wars 2 system far more comlpex and that is causing even some of my closest friends to cry about no trinity, which when a group leader worth his salt comes in and orginizes the party, they stopped crying and enjoyed themselves.

Here is the problem group leaders will face.  They will need to know the capabilities of each class to determine which roles from each class they will need to fit the desired jobs within his team.

 

 

More like total rework than "fine tuning" IMO.

 

In what way do they need to totally rework these dungeons? Thats a laugh. I agree with fine tuning or bug fixing, but the setup is fine enough for those who want a challenge and not want it to be trivial.

No, the trinity is awful and you know it.

There's problems in GW2's dungeons which are related to balance.

The trinity filters people into predetermined roles and leaves very little to move around.

The lack of trinity works, but the dungeons need polishing.

Originally posted by Onecrazyguy

Originally posted by Apropo

Originally posted by Sylvarii

ArenaNet haven't removed the holy trinity of tanking damage, healing damage, and dealing damage in Guild Wars 2. They consolidated it. Everyone can tank, everyone can heal, and everyone can nuke. 

Nope,the holy trinity dispite ArenaNets claims is alive and kicking in GW2.

Long post

More like total rework than "fine tuning" IMO.

 

You surely looks like an expert on this subject.

Mind posting some videos of your own explo speed run of high end dungeons?

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by Yamota

I wasn't a particular fan of the trinity system but now that it is not here anymore I miss it. Specially compared to whatever Arena Net has replaced it with. For example I used to play CC/Healer utility class and I cant seem to do that properly here. Either the heals/CC are too weak, too small radius or too long cooldown. So right now I dont know what kind of role my Elementalist does as the only thing he can do consistently is DPS.

Well dps AND run around like a spastic with ants in his pants.

Well Elementalist can become main healers if they spec for it.  My roommate does DPS sure but he can out heal most other classes and does so in Dungeons all the time.

I think that as more people learn their professions (the biggest thing right now is people do not learn their professions, they just stick to what they know) we will see alot more "roles' being filled.

Originally posted by dariuszp

 

 

Trinity never enforced collaboration. Trinity enforced ONE ROLE for YOUR ENTIRE TIME. You were doomed to heal or be punching bag whole f***** time. In GW2 you can take any role you want and they just switch to something else. 

 

This is why i dont miss Trinity when im playing GW2. Sure ill focus on my DPS role only when i play Trinity focused mmos but here i have variety and lots of fun switching roles at will. Also, In GW2 i dont have the problems i had in WoW and other mmos.  For example, i always roll DPS in WoW. If i want to constantly be running dungeons i have to be healer or tank and i dont like those roles. Also i like to do teamwork without having to depend strictly on the tanker to keep aggro and healer to keep me alive. 

But again, like Eir_S said, devs now have 2 different and succesful systems to make mmos. Trinity and non trinity. More variety is always better IF done right.

Originally posted by demz

Honestly, yes. I kind of miss it. Only because everyone is ranged. I reckon it is the outcome when everyone can do everything. So what class are you? I am a warrior. I use a bow/gun. Everyone everywhere uses range because being melee sucks rotten stinking donkey butthole. Sure there are those few that love to tell you they are awesome and the other 500000 billion% are wrong but for the most part, no, it is not fun. 

As melee (not healer or tank those non-existent pricks) I have to double tap buttons twice (got two in me) to avoid things but if there is more than a few mobs near each other I am screwed. Or I could stand back and hit my cooldowns and randomly stroll around while I train on melee. Without some idea of what, if anything, someone is doing it feels like a giant cluster-you-know-what. 

Learn to play.   Seriously.   Ranged is rarely necessary or worth it for the Warrior.    Only they hyper-tough World Event bosses where being melee is an insta-death-ticket due to massive close range/wide-area AoE attacks.

As for the rest...   Another whiner topic from people who need to learn to play.    Even my ranger does as much melee as ranged because it's that good when you know how...

Apart from the token 'L2P' guy above me, i think this topic is just ..well out of place.

There are lot of things to criticize about GW2 but holy trinity is not one of them.

Originally posted by IstrebiteI

Dont miss tank-healer-dps segregation at all. All it does is lower the potential of groups and your skillcap. It's a flawed mechanic both mechanic-wise (as it forces you into a role instead of allowing you to find it out yourself how you can benefit your group most) and immersion-wise (its stupid how state of your health becomes a simple vessel, which has liquid being poured into by some players and drained by monsters, its even more stupid how the enemies are dumbest asses ever, attacking the least preferred target - the one that is hardest to kill but does no real damage to them).

I think GW2 is the step in right direction. Not to say they hit hte nail in the head and made THE BEST SYSTEM EVAH, but its a start. You can go on from there. But segregation into set roles of heal, tank, dps has to go.

Yeah, I always thought that was a major flaw in the design.   The boss should have killed the healer first, then the dps, than that low-impact slug in the thick tin-can...

Originally posted by TdogSkal

Originally posted by Tardcore

Originally posted by Yamota

I wasn't a particular fan of the trinity system but now that it is not here anymore I miss it. Specially compared to whatever Arena Net has replaced it with. For example I used to play CC/Healer utility class and I cant seem to do that properly here. Either the heals/CC are too weak, too small radius or too long cooldown. So right now I dont know what kind of role my Elementalist does as the only thing he can do consistently is DPS.

Well dps AND run around like a spastic with ants in his pants.

Well Elementalist can become main healers if they spec for it.  My roommate does DPS sure but he can out heal most other classes and does so in Dungeons all the time.

I think that as more people learn their professions (the biggest thing right now is people do not learn their professions, they just stick to what they know) we will see alot more "roles' being filled.

Explain to me how to spec. for it. Staff healing and water specced is the best setup I can make with my Elementalist and I still cannot heal consistently. Basically Healing Rain has too long cooldown, even with -20% CD trait, and geyser is too weak and too small radius to effectively use as healing. So I dont see how it is possible to spec. for main healer as Elementalist, secondary maybe but not main.

Nope not at all, enjoy life guys, have fun, and peace.

Originally posted by MosesZD

Originally posted by demz

Honestly, yes. I kind of miss it. Only because everyone is ranged. I reckon it is the outcome when everyone can do everything. So what class are you? I am a warrior. I use a bow/gun. Everyone everywhere uses range because being melee sucks rotten stinking donkey butthole. Sure there are those few that love to tell you they are awesome and the other 500000 billion% are wrong but for the most part, no, it is not fun. 

As melee (not healer or tank those non-existent pricks) I have to double tap buttons twice (got two in me) to avoid things but if there is more than a few mobs near each other I am screwed. Or I could stand back and hit my cooldowns and randomly stroll around while I train on melee. Without some idea of what, if anything, someone is doing it feels like a giant cluster-you-know-what. 

 

Learn to play.   Seriously.   Ranged is rarely necessary or worth it for the Warrior.    Only they hyper-tough World Event bosses where being melee is an insta-death-ticket due to massive close range/wide-area AoE attacks.

 

As for the rest...   Another whiner topic from people who need to learn to play.    Even my ranger does as much melee as ranged because it's that good when you know how...

Gotta laugh at the ignorance of most people when it comes to ranged vs. melee. They probably go in melee once, get rocked then instinctly never go back in, afraid that it will happen again. Its like watching someone touch a hot stove, then assume that the stove will burn them everytime whether it is on or off. If you know when to go in and do some damage then get out before you die, it's really not that hard to play as both classes. Warrior ranged is crap in most cases, and they excel far more in melee for damage, but I'm not going to stay in melee because it does more damage, nor stay at range because I'm afraid to get burned. I mix it up to keep myself alive and to utilize my class properly. So honestly, your learn to play is true, people are just too afraid of change and love to generalize everything into classes or fight mechanics. No dungeon is anti-melee, you just assume it is.