I'm thinking here of instances with a variable cap.

Cities would have no cap obviously, so all the people in them can actually interract with one another.

Areas close to cities would have a pretty high cap, say 100 so it's pretty lively but never crowded as hell.

Really remote areas in the middle of nowhere in a hostile environment would have a cap as slow as the maximum number of people in a party is with some flexibility, so if the max party size is 5 and the area cap is 5 the party could still enter if the number of player in the instance was 4, the absolute cap would be then 9, so it's possible for everybody to meet at least one other soul in an area.

Obviously you would share instances with people you don't know, unlike say, the original Guild Wars.

I really think it would help with immersion, and as far as I know it's possible to create instances without loading screens (SWTOR did it IIRC) so you wouldn't even have to deal with tons of loading screens.

Thoughts? I think this idea is never going to make it in any mmo ever (unless I get rich and decide to make one) but hey.

Originally posted by Slheyas

I'm thinking here of instances with a variable cap.

 

Cities would have no cap obviously, so all the people in them can actually interract with one another.

Areas close to cities would have a pretty high cap, say 100 so it's pretty lively but never crowded as hell.

Really remote areas in the middle of nowhere in a hostile environment would have a cap as slow as the maximum number of people in a party is with some flexibility, so if the max party size is 5 and the area cap is 5 the party could still enter if the number of player in the instance was 4, the absolute cap would be then 9, so it's possible for everybody to meet at least one other soul in an area.

 

Obviously you would share instances with people you don't know, unlike say, the original Guild Wars.

 

I really think it would help with immersion, and as far as I know it's possible to create instances without loading screens (SWTOR did it IIRC) so you wouldn't even have to deal with tons of loading screens.

 

Thoughts? I think this idea is never going to make it in any mmo ever (unless I get rich and decide to make one) but hey.

Or developers could just design a game well so that the population is spread out where it should be and instances are never needed.

A lack of freedom is NEVER immersive. "Hey, I'm standing right next to you." "No you're not, I can't see you!"

There are always better ways of doing things than using instancing. Instancing is the first resort of a lazy, hack job ofa developer.

I really don't see how it would be possible otherwise though, especially in the case of desolate areas that should be all but completely empty, how do you prevent people from going there en masse? Make it completely devoid of anything of interest? Make it unbelievable hard to get to (locking out contents because of player skill isn't a good idea)?

I really don't see a solution.

I liked Ragnarok Online...

No instancing and you would always meet people around the world, even at places where you would think noone goes...

People just explored!

I love Ragnarok Online to death too!

In fact if I could take two existing mmos and blend them together I'd take everything from GW2 and mix it with the stat and gear system of RO.

Originally posted by Slheyas

I'm thinking here of instances with a variable cap.

 

Cities would have no cap obviously, so all the people in them can actually interract with one another.

Areas close to cities would have a pretty high cap, say 100 so it's pretty lively but never crowded as hell.

Really remote areas in the middle of nowhere in a hostile environment would have a cap as slow as the maximum number of people in a party is with some flexibility, so if the max party size is 5 and the area cap is 5 the party could still enter if the number of player in the instance was 4, the absolute cap would be then 9, so it's possible for everybody to meet at least one other soul in an area.

 

Obviously you would share instances with people you don't know, unlike say, the original Guild Wars.

 

I really think it would help with immersion, and as far as I know it's possible to create instances without loading screens (SWTOR did it IIRC) so you wouldn't even have to deal with tons of loading screens.

 

Thoughts? I think this idea is never going to make it in any mmo ever (unless I get rich and decide to make one) but hey.

Instancing is fine for pve games if they are meant to be rpg's not mmorpgs....def not for pvp

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Slheyas

I'm thinking here of instances with a variable cap.

 

Cities would have no cap obviously, so all the people in them can actually interract with one another.

Areas close to cities would have a pretty high cap, say 100 so it's pretty lively but never crowded as hell.

Really remote areas in the middle of nowhere in a hostile environment would have a cap as slow as the maximum number of people in a party is with some flexibility, so if the max party size is 5 and the area cap is 5 the party could still enter if the number of player in the instance was 4, the absolute cap would be then 9, so it's possible for everybody to meet at least one other soul in an area.

 

Obviously you would share instances with people you don't know, unlike say, the original Guild Wars.

 

I really think it would help with immersion, and as far as I know it's possible to create instances without loading screens (SWTOR did it IIRC) so you wouldn't even have to deal with tons of loading screens.

 

Thoughts? I think this idea is never going to make it in any mmo ever (unless I get rich and decide to make one) but hey.

Or developers could just design a game well so that the population is spread out where it should be and instances are never needed.

A lack of freedom is NEVER immersive. "Hey, I'm standing right next to you." "No you're not, I can't see you!"

There are always better ways of doing things than using instancing. Instancing is the first resort of a lazy, hack job ofa developer.

I disagree. Although I am not keen on the Ops suggestion.

Instancing has its place- And can add to a game. I am not a fan of "private" or "overflow" instances but rather more innovative ways to use instances. 

One cool idea (at least I like it) is to use instancing to add a bit of variety. A developer could make 20-30  variations of 1 area and based on things done in the game (or randomness if desired) these could "switch"- These would not be private instances but changes in the world for everyone but done via instancing. 

Another example would be a dungeon comprised of several "instances" which randomy change- This would make "memorizing" the dungeon and zerging through it far less problamitic than it currently is- And these wouldnt be "randomly" generated but handcrafted areas with randomly appearing traps in an everchanging and dynamic area.

This would allow far more complexity in games while using less resourses to achive this.

Originally posted by Slheyas

I really don't see how it would be possible otherwise though, especially in the case of desolate areas that should be all but completely empty, how do you prevent people from going there en masse? Make it completely devoid of anything of interest? Make it unbelievable hard to get to (locking out contents because of player skill isn't a good idea)?

 

I really don't see a solution.

I am perplexed..  I'm confused by the part in green.  What do you mean?  Can you explain this better, or provide an example of how this has or has not impacted current MMOs?

Originally posted by gigat

Originally posted by Slheyas

I really don't see how it would be possible otherwise though, especially in the case of desolate areas that should be all but completely empty, how do you prevent people from going there en masse? Make it completely devoid of anything of interest? Make it unbelievable hard to get to (locking out contents because of player skill isn't a good idea)?

 

I really don't see a solution.

I am perplexed..  I'm confused by the part in green.  What do you mean?  Can you explain this better, or provide an example of how this has or has not impacted current MMOs?

Okay, imagine an mmo with an area that is a huge desert, think of it like Death Valley in California, nothing but barren wasteland for as far as the eye can see, a story quest though happens to send you in this area, as well as some other generic quests. What happens then is that tons of players go in that desert devoid of human life to accomplish their quests. The area then becomes extremely lively even though everything about it screams death and inhospitable.

And well, it doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by Slheyas

Originally posted by gigat

Originally posted by Slheyas

I really don't see how it would be possible otherwise though, especially in the case of desolate areas that should be all but completely empty, how do you prevent people from going there en masse? Make it completely devoid of anything of interest? Make it unbelievable hard to get to (locking out contents because of player skill isn't a good idea)?

 

I really don't see a solution.

I am perplexed..  I'm confused by the part in green.  What do you mean?  Can you explain this better, or provide an example of how this has or has not impacted current MMOs?

 

Okay, imagine an mmo with an area that is a huge desert, think of it like Death Valley in California, nothing but barren wasteland for as far as the eye can see, a story quest though happens to send you in this area, as well as some other generic quests. What happens then is that tons of players go in that desert devoid of human life to accomplish their quests. The area then becomes extremely lively even though everything about it screams death and inhospitable.

 

And well, it doesn't make sense.

Very easy. Make those areas really hard to be in. Like a real dessert. Virtual worlds are relfections of real worlds. It goes to show how shallow themeparks are and how poor writing is in most MMOs... if you want an area to be desolate don't SAY its desolate, MAKE it desolate. Make it hard to get to, make it empty, make it harsh once you're there. "But then why go there" you say? Well, areas are usually desolate because people don't WANT to go there. Maybe only the best of the best go there. Maybe only bored explorers go there.

There are far better more interesting ways to do this than instancing, always the tool of the lazy developer.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I would like a new mmo with no instancing at all.

Planetside 2 and Darkfall 2.0 bud! Vanguard just went FTP too, not a loading screen at ALL.

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Slheyas

Originally posted by gigat

Originally posted by Slheyas

I really don't see how it would be possible otherwise though, especially in the case of desolate areas that should be all but completely empty, how do you prevent people from going there en masse? Make it completely devoid of anything of interest? Make it unbelievable hard to get to (locking out contents because of player skill isn't a good idea)?

 

I really don't see a solution.

I am perplexed..  I'm confused by the part in green.  What do you mean?  Can you explain this better, or provide an example of how this has or has not impacted current MMOs?

 

Okay, imagine an mmo with an area that is a huge desert, think of it like Death Valley in California, nothing but barren wasteland for as far as the eye can see, a story quest though happens to send you in this area, as well as some other generic quests. What happens then is that tons of players go in that desert devoid of human life to accomplish their quests. The area then becomes extremely lively even though everything about it screams death and inhospitable.

 

And well, it doesn't make sense.

Very easy. Make those areas really hard to be in. Like a real dessert. Virtual worlds are relfections of real worlds. It goes to show how shallow themeparks are and how poor writing is in most MMOs... if you want an area to be desolate don't SAY its desolate, MAKE it desolate. Make it hard to get to, make it empty, make it harsh once you're there. "But then why go there" you say? Well, areas are usually desolate because people don't WANT to go there. Maybe only the best of the best go there. Maybe only bored explorers go there.

There are far better more interesting ways to do this than instancing, always the tool of the lazy developer.

While I absolutely love this idea it would probably be hated by players. Nobody likes having content unaccessible to them because they're too unskilled.

If the complaints about explorable mode dungeons in GW2 are an indication making whole areas too hard to bad players would be met with a massive amount of whining, unless those areas have nothing worthwhile in them.

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Slheyas

I'm thinking here of instances with a variable cap.

 

Cities would have no cap obviously, so all the people in them can actually interract with one another.

Areas close to cities would have a pretty high cap, say 100 so it's pretty lively but never crowded as hell.

Really remote areas in the middle of nowhere in a hostile environment would have a cap as slow as the maximum number of people in a party is with some flexibility, so if the max party size is 5 and the area cap is 5 the party could still enter if the number of player in the instance was 4, the absolute cap would be then 9, so it's possible for everybody to meet at least one other soul in an area.

 

Obviously you would share instances with people you don't know, unlike say, the original Guild Wars.

 

I really think it would help with immersion, and as far as I know it's possible to create instances without loading screens (SWTOR did it IIRC) so you wouldn't even have to deal with tons of loading screens.

 

Thoughts? I think this idea is never going to make it in any mmo ever (unless I get rich and decide to make one) but hey.

Or developers could just design a game well so that the population is spread out where it should be and instances are never needed.

A lack of freedom is NEVER immersive. "Hey, I'm standing right next to you." "No you're not, I can't see you!"

There are always better ways of doing things than using instancing. Instancing is the first resort of a lazy, hack job ofa developer.

I disagree. Although I am not keen on the Ops suggestion.

Instancing has its place- And can add to a game I keep hearing this "if done right instancing is great" I then ask... well which game did instancing right. The response is always "well, this game almost did it right but uh... went too far." And that's the point, instancing always goes too far, because its a crutch. . I am not a fan of "private" or "overflow" instances but rather more innovative ways to use instances. 

One cool idea (at least I like it) is to use instancing to add a bit of variety. A developer could make 20-30  variations of 1 area and based on things done in the game (or randomness if desired) these could "switch"- These would not be private instances but changes in the world for everyone but done via instancing.  GW2 does this without instancing.

Another example would be a dungeon comprised of several "instances" which randomy change- This would make "memorizing" the dungeon and zerging through it far less problamitic than it currently is That doesn't make any sense in a virtual world unless you created a core lore mechanic about some sort of chaos portal, and you can do that without instancing, just randomize the public dungeon.- And these wouldnt be "randomly" generated but handcrafted areas with randomly appearing traps in an everchanging and dynamic area.

This would allow far more complexity in games while using less resourses to achive this.

 

Not following you.

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by SaintPhilip

Originally posted by TobiasGrey

Originally posted by Slheyas

I'm thinking here of instances with a variable cap.

 

Cities would have no cap obviously, so all the people in them can actually interract with one another.

Areas close to cities would have a pretty high cap, say 100 so it's pretty lively but never crowded as hell.

Really remote areas in the middle of nowhere in a hostile environment would have a cap as slow as the maximum number of people in a party is with some flexibility, so if the max party size is 5 and the area cap is 5 the party could still enter if the number of player in the instance was 4, the absolute cap would be then 9, so it's possible for everybody to meet at least one other soul in an area.

 

Obviously you would share instances with people you don't know, unlike say, the original Guild Wars.

 

I really think it would help with immersion, and as far as I know it's possible to create instances without loading screens (SWTOR did it IIRC) so you wouldn't even have to deal with tons of loading screens.

 

Thoughts? I think this idea is never going to make it in any mmo ever (unless I get rich and decide to make one) but hey.

Or developers could just design a game well so that the population is spread out where it should be and instances are never needed.

A lack of freedom is NEVER immersive. "Hey, I'm standing right next to you." "No you're not, I can't see you!"

There are always better ways of doing things than using instancing. Instancing is the first resort of a lazy, hack job ofa developer.

I disagree. Although I am not keen on the Ops suggestion.

Instancing has its place- And can add to a game I keep hearing this "if done right instancing is great" I then ask... well which game did instancing right. The response is always "well, this game almost did it right but uh... went too far." And that's the point, instancing always goes too far, because its a crutch. . I am not a fan of "private" or "overflow" instances but rather more innovative ways to use instances. 

One cool idea (at least I like it) is to use instancing to add a bit of variety. A developer could make 20-30  variations of 1 area and based on things done in the game (or randomness if desired) these could "switch"- These would not be private instances but changes in the world for everyone but done via instancing.  GW2 does this without instancing.

Another example would be a dungeon comprised of several "instances" which randomy change- This would make "memorizing" the dungeon and zerging through it far less problamitic than it currently is That doesn't make any sense in a virtual world unless you created a core lore mechanic about some sort of chaos portal, and you can do that without instancing, just randomize the public dungeon.- And these wouldnt be "randomly" generated but handcrafted areas with randomly appearing traps in an everchanging and dynamic area.

This would allow far more complexity in games while using less resourses to achive this.

 

Not following you.

I understand- Trying to simplify something while multi-tasking does not make for a coherent post =P

First, I have never seen this done right- At all. I am being purely theoretical.

Secondly I am not at all speaking of the "changing world" in GW2 but something far greater in scope .

Last, it would be similar to randomizing the public dungeon (the lore issue aside as the same boss is killed a million times anyhow) but done in hand crafted blocks. Something about "Randomly made dungeons" make for poor dungeons. My idea is to handcraft a dungeon in "blocks" which could change. Like 10 - 20 possible tilesets (or whatever) per area, each with random trap and treasure and mob placement. This would allow for the variety of "randomness" but still have a changing but handcrafted dungeon. Could this be done without instancing?

Originally posted by Slheyas

Originally posted by gigat

Originally posted by Slheyas

I really don't see how it would be possible otherwise though, especially in the case of desolate areas that should be all but completely empty, how do you prevent people from going there en masse? Make it completely devoid of anything of interest? Make it unbelievable hard to get to (locking out contents because of player skill isn't a good idea)?

 

I really don't see a solution.

I am perplexed..  I'm confused by the part in green.  What do you mean?  Can you explain this better, or provide an example of how this has or has not impacted current MMOs?

 

Okay, imagine an mmo with an area that is a huge desert, think of it like Death Valley in California, nothing but barren wasteland for as far as the eye can see, a story quest though happens to send you in this area, as well as some other generic quests. What happens then is that tons of players go in that desert devoid of human life to accomplish their quests. The area then becomes extremely lively even though everything about it screams death and inhospitable.

 

And well, it doesn't make sense.

Ok, I see now.  You're more concerned about immersion in regards to lore or story.

For me, instancing breaks immersion.  I've always thought of instancing as a method developers use in order to reduce performance issues.  When you have too many people in a single region, then framerates drop and the servers might get bogged down.

I can understand why you would use instancing in the scenario you described (like in SWTOR).  Lately, instancing has been a great method for allowing the player to experience their own story.  If this is what you want out of an online RPG, then I can see it working.

I prefer a large, seamless world, where I can see and interact with everyone in the game at any time.  Instancing separates the players, and -- in most cases -- forces them to play alone.  This takes the MM out of MMORPG.

Originally posted by Slheyas

While I absolutely love this idea it would probably be hated by players. Nobody likes having content unaccessible to them because they're too unskilled.

 

If the complaints about explorable mode dungeons in GW2 are an indication making whole areas too hard to bad players would be met with a massive amount of whining, unless those areas have nothing worthwhile in them.

A well designed game should require no instancing at all.

Also I think that those areas that are inaccessible to them NOT because they are unskilled per se, but because it was meant to be hard and need to be approached with a group. Many games has areas like this, and it doesn't make the areas unapproachable, it was just meant to be played with other people, which is fine, as mmos are meant to be played with other people.

I mean, even in real-life you won't explore Antarctica by yourself without absolutely any support from anyone (in terms of rations or sponsorship or emergency assistance if solo exploring) would you? That would be suicide.

Hard areas are meant to be hard. Instancing it in a game is not going to improve that at all (I think rather it makes it less attractive).

Originally posted by gigat

  Lately, instancing has been a great method for allowing the player to experience their own story.  If this is what you want out of an online RPG, then I can see it working.

 

Except this is not what MMOs are good at doing, and they will never be better at telling a personal story than a singleplayer RPG. Every MMO that has tried has failed at making a good instanced storyline, because the second you leave the instance, not a single bit of it matters, and all the material gets padded out, and the combat is limited/bad because of the online restriction.

The best storyline in MMOs are the ones the players help create like in UO, Darkfall, and AC. That system is the one that needs to be embraced. Turbine does monthly updates that change the game world for everyone, not advance the personal story of one player and add "content"(fetch quests). The Turbine updates allow the players of the game world to make an impact on a living space.

I have yet to see a single application of instancing that has worked well in an MMORPG.