Depends how you want to coin the word success because as has already been pointed out EvE is also a very succesful sub game in it's own right, i even had two accounts there myself at one time until my interest in it waned, but you cannot deny that CCP have built a solid game that a lot of people are extremely dedicated to.

I also played the Westwood game Earth & Beyond all those years ago and even that was profitable with only a 30,000 player base (as much as EA attempted to prove otherwise) and had a fiercly loyal player base in it's time.

As much as we harp about the whole 'sub' thing it just doesn't suit everyone for various reasons, hence the rise in B2P and F2P games with optional shops instead which is in all reality the dominant market and has been for a long time, especially in the huge eastern markets and is sweepng the western markets like a wildfire. 

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by Isturi
So we have EVE and Rift. OK good examples but compared to WoW how do they stand?

I've kinda mentally disqualified WoW from comparisons. It's in a class of it's own, and thus should be treated as such.

Exactly so would by WoW standing in a class of its's own then set the standards or have set the standards for all to follow? Also would this make WoW the best MMO of all time?

Wait, are you asking me if WoW set the standards for others to follow, or something else? Your post is weirdly worded.

Sorry did not mean to be confusing. All I am asking is your thought of how you or others may feel about WoW being a sub based game and still on top. Or also as mention is it a class by it's own right?

Well, it's definitely in a class of it's own in terms of sheer player numbers, for a P2P MMO. My thoughts on WoW still being on top? Well, it's kinda to be expected, considering that it:

1. Took the whole MMO genre by storm, a perfect storm I might add that will probably never happen in another century or so.
2. MMOs released between WoW's initial release and up to recently (and it's still happening apparently) either being shoddier versions of World of Warcraft, or if it was unique, apparently "too niche" or too poorly designed/not updated enough to get enough attention. Might also be partially due to unrealistic expectations of trying to gain WoW like player numbers over something more realistic.
3. Big time brand loyalty. I'd say more, but I can't think of anything right now.

Final Fantasy XI is still sub based and going strong for 10 years, has a new full expansion on the way with no signs of the game getting anywhere near shut down. Square Enix recently said that FFXI has made more money than any of the other FF games too. FFXIV is also a sub based game that will likely do just as well and last just as long, just look at all the people that stuck with the game at its worst.

FFXI is proof that if you make a good MMO and stick with it, it won't have to go F2P.

You are wrong OP, and you should feel bad about it.

Originally posted by Darklotus79
WoW is without a doubt the most successful sub based mmorpg on the market. Although its not the only one thats successful. It has been stated already EvE and Rift are both doing well as sub based games.  WoW has been around since 2004 with a strong marketing strategy.  Even today you still see advertisments on T.V and the internet everywhere.  When South Park tried to make fun of the game , it just boosted the popularity. At that time WoW was boasting 7 million players.  A year later after that episode BC came out , The playerbase jumped up to 11 million. The game will stay on top not because other games suck. It will stay on top because so many people have already invested tons of time and money into the game. If WoW shut its doors today. Rift would probably #1 and at least 80% of WoWs playerbase would go to Rift.

No, WoW has a certain cham to it that brings in people that don't play MMO's. If WoW was gone most people would dabble in other MMO's then quit. Rift is nowhere near a replacement for WoW because it's a souless, copy of good ideas from other games but implemented in terrible ways. It feels like a bad knock off of a bunch of other games really.

Rift is fun to look at, but when most people play it they don't like it. Which is the reason so many people say how great it is but it has so few subs.

Originally posted by Darklotus79
at least 80% of WoWs playerbase would go to Rift.

They'd better be going back to school or they will never graduate.

Originally posted by Darklotus79
If WoW shut its doors today. Rift would probably #1 and at least 80% of WoWs playerbase would go to Rift.

Actually they would probably just leave the genre all together.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I think
EQ, uo, daoc, eve, coh, aion and rift all made a profit. Probably more.

The question that should be asked is why is wow box + expansions + sub + cash shop when they've made so much money and how cone with such vast resources they don't pump out content at the rate of other games.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I think the developers just got too cozy in their position on the throne, and figured everyone wouldn't care.

No one can argue the games success or how well it is still doing. If this is the standard you want to compare to, then there is just nothing else that’s close. EQ1 and EQ2 and EVE have all been around as long or longer...and while they may have F2P options, there is still the option to subscribe if you don’t want a neutered experience. 

The reasons for WoW still doing so well isn’t really about quality anymore unfortunately. A large number of people started playing MMO's because of this game, people that would have never likely touched them, because this is easy mode instant gratification. Other games can’t draw the same numbers because a challenging game that strongly encourages socializing cant appeal to the same number of people, which is what a lot of early MMO's did.

Couple this with all the time people have invested in their characters and people can’t bring themselves to just leave them...even if it’s not nearly as much fun as it used to be to play them. Add in the fact you can run the game on 6 year old hardware without a hitch...some people can’t afford a newer rig so they stick with it.

So yes, WoW is a class of its own...one I can only hope will be copied less and less as developers realize they can’t lure the WoW market away with more of the same and more than likely not at all. Hopefully they see they alienate potential subscribers when they make something attempting to ape WoW's success.

Originally posted by Isturi

So with all the great classic MMO's that have gone F2P and with all the new MMO's that come out F2P for B2P WoW seems be the only one left that is still standing tall that is successful at be a P2P game. I can not think of any other title out now or that will be coming out that is offering P2P?? If you know of any please mention. But in all honesty have they stood the test of time like WoW?

With a player base well in the millions still and holding steady can any sub base game claim the same success?

Lineage have also stood the test of time fine, it still is huge in Korea and it is 4 years older than Wow. Eve is still P2P even if you can pay the sub with ingame money nowadays and Eve is also older than Wow.

Wow is really not holding steady unless you calling losing a million sub every 3 months as "steady". Maybe it lose them because P2P is going away, maybe it is because Wow is 8 years old but it is happening to Wow too.

Many P2P games have made a large amount of money, but Wow is indeed the game that have done best. But after all these years the game is now in decline, and MOP is not enough to turn that around.

It will be interesting to see if Titan will be P2P or not though.

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I think
EQ, uo, daoc, eve, coh, aion and rift all made a profit. Probably more.

The question that should be asked is why is wow box + expansions + sub + cash shop when they've made so much money and how cone with such vast resources they don't pump out content at the rate of other games.

Good point. TY

Originally posted by Isturi

Originally posted by ShakyMo
I think
EQ, uo, daoc, eve, coh, aion and rift all made a profit. Probably more.

The question that should be asked is why is wow box + expansions + sub + cash shop when they've made so much money and how cone with such vast resources they don't pump out content at the rate of other games.

Good point. TY

Because WoW has always been about doing the bare minimum. WoW has never innovated, never brought in new ideas. I'm pretty sure they use most of the money for other games, because they don't need to add much to WoW to keep it going, its all momentum and pop culture pressence now. It was never about the quality of the game.

And no, there are dozens of MMOs that have been successful as a sub based game. AC, EQ, DAoC, UO, SWG, to name a few huge ones. Then there's CoH, Darkfall, Eve, AO, EnB...

Yeah EQ had 17 expansions out before it went F2P.

And in my opinion had 2 good expansions come out before I started to lose respect for it. I lost my respect for wow after BC came out.

wow stands on top i think mainly to the high lvls tht dun rly wanna let go of theyr characters and move on since theyve spent so much time on em. thats 1of th reasons i play n also due to it still runs on my old reserve comp true it runs w max 10 fps at best but its better thn nothing :)

another reason is also tht i feel kinda duty bound to the guilds im member of (im sure many nother feels th same way).n bsides wow is rly the entry lvl of mmos many ppl move on after abit to tougher games as well.

Originally posted by Isturi

So with all the great classic MMO's that have gone F2P and with all the new MMO's that come out F2P for B2P WoW seems be the only one left that is still standing tall that is successful at be a P2P game. I can not think of any other title out now or that will be coming out that is offering P2P?? If you know of any please mention. But in all honesty have they stood the test of time like WoW?

With a player base well in the millions still and holding steady can any sub base game claim the same success?

RIFT, FF14 and EQ2 are releasing expansions.

RIFT and FF14 are P2P (FF14 did have a LOT of issues but the game is looking really good, for the upcoming re-release).

RIFT will x3 the land mass with the update.

Their you go 2 for you (EQ 2 is in here becouse it is getting another expansion, this means that the game is succeeding).

wow launched at a very good time, when the masses started getting internet connections.  That helped, as did blizzards reputation as a maker of quality games.  Ive never bought into the "copied the best bits from the prior generation of mmos" line, as if it did it would have ripped PVP from dAOC and crafting from UO for a start.  Wow is more Diablo as a MMO with a WOW skin (or it was at launch), the UI was very AC though.

Whats unusual is why EQ2 and COH didnt take off the same way too, as they came out around same time. Especially COH as it was a fun game, and the first MMO (jest before WOW) to provide gameplay for casual players.