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General Discussion  » Please describe what makes a good end game

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150 posts found
  Wootloops

Novice Member

Joined: 9/13/12
Posts: 167

9/16/12 3:09:53 AM#141
Originally posted by Epic1oots
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Cakeisyummeh
Originally posted by halflife25
For me personally perfect end game would be player generated content. Give players some tools so that they can make their own content.

That'd kill lore a little.

 

Fun is more important than lore and besides the lore can be adjusted to fit the new systems.

and how would this so called new system work? I dont even want to imagine the bugs and glitches and possible hacks.

Specified player development area(s) / list of player made instances to hot join. If there are bugs/glitches, you just port out.

  sonoggi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/22/09
Posts: 1151

9/16/12 3:27:18 AM#142
good endgame means constant world updates, new DE's, so we can travel around the world doing cool quests and unlocking new dyes/lewt/etc. and WvW, just the way it is. basically, more of what they gave us, with tweaks to current DE's. 
  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3184

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

9/16/12 3:44:26 AM#143


Originally posted by halflife25

Originally posted by Cakeisyummeh

Originally posted by halflife25
For me personally perfect end game would be player generated content. Give players some tools so that they can make their own content.

That'd kill lore a little.

I have spent hours upon hours making dungeons in EQ2. And did it without breaking any lore.

How many other players do the same? Which do you think would have a slight edge in player made content:
1) thoughtful, well done
2) exploited aspects
3) thrown together willy-nilly in 5-10 minutes

In some cases, I agree that player made content sometimes outshines what the devs put together. In most cases, though, there is a reason players are NOT developers. Too many times I have seen the results of the "Wouldn't this be cool?" mindset.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1838

9/16/12 4:38:10 AM#144
Originally posted by Creslin321

I've seen a lot of posts complaining that GW2 has no end-game recently.  But, to be honest, I really don't see how the end-game in GW2 is any worse than that in WoW.  However this could just be due to my inexperience with the end game in WoW, or my specific preferences...after all, the end game to WoW never appealed to me, so I never experienced it.

So for those who think GW2 has a poor end game, could you please describe to me what you feel a good end game would be?  Maybe an example game?  I'm not saying this to be snide, I just honestly don't understand why people are complaining about this, and I want to understand.

I haven't experienced GW2's endgame, so my reply isn't in opposition to the game, only to express what I feel is a good endgame.

The number one thing, and is interwoven in all my suggestions is PROGRESSION. I must always be able to further gain power on my character.

I think every MMORPG must have several types of endgames, because any 1 type gets boring, so having several allows people to mix them up, furthering the longetivity of the game. I'll give a list, and then example games.

1. Realm versus Realm (3 faction PvP) with Real Ranks

2. Raiding

3. Small Group Dungeons

4. Alternate Advancement

5. Player Generated Content

 

Okay, so now on to some explanations and examples.

1. DAoC was my first MMO, and it's suprising how much they got right, while later games failed. RvR was one such feature, a 3 faction warfare in the frontiers, which didn't have a player cap and wasn't zoned. But having RvR wasn't good all by itself, it needed Real Ranks, which it had. When you earned enough Real Points, your gained a Real Rank, which gave you a point to spend on Real Abilities, which made your character stronger, or gave him extra abilities, depending on your choice.

2. Raiding wasn't always about gear progression. DAoC had raiding, but the purpose of it was to earn Master Levels, which granted extra powerful abilities. Master Levels were earned only after hitting the max level cap. To those who like gear progression, which is another way to grow your character post level cap, WoW is a good example.

3. Not everyone likes raiding, but may like grouping. Max level dungeons, much the same way as raids, gives those players a way to advance their character through dungeon progression. Same idea as raiding, except on a group sized scale.

4. EQ2 had an awesome alternative advancement system. It was an alternative way to make your character stronger, and gave you something extra to strive for during and after the leveling process. DAoC also added a form of alternative advancement through Real Ranks, Master Levels, and Champion Levels, all of which gave you something to strive for after max level. People played DAoC for years before finally maxing their characters out AFTER they hit max level.

5. SWG is a good example of player generated content. The ability to have player ran cities, ran by a mayor, gave players something to do once they hit max level. The player ran economy, which was really deep, played into this too. Faction pride in that game (Rebels vs. Imperials) lent to encouraging people to PvP for no other reason than that itself, but control of planets aided in that effort.

As far as I know, there isn't any real progression in GW2. During the leveling process, you really don't feel any more powerful than you did starting the game, due to level scaling. Because of the easiness of world PvE, earning skill points to get a wider selection of utility skills doesn't feel like progression either, because you rarely need to use them. In fact, you rarely need to use more than autoattack and your most powerful AOE ability. As for WvW PvP, you don't earn any ranks, nor can you make your character any more powerful than what he was when you first rolled that character. According to many posters in these forums, max level gear (stats-wise) is easy to obtain, so there's not even that for progression. In other words, you have no way of making your character more powerful after hitting level cap, thus no reason than "for fun" to do anything once your character has hit max level.

Since fun diminishes after each repitition of the same activity when that activity does nothing to make your character more powerful, the longevity of the game is much smaller after a player hits max level than say games like WoW and DAoC and their ilk that offers something to strive for that takes a lot of time to achieve. 

In summary, players in general like to advance their characters (make them stronger), so when that process ends, so does the fun for many people. When the fun ends, so does the game.

  Worfi

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/12
Posts: 16

9/16/12 6:30:08 AM#145
Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Worfi
Originally posted by Kuinn
Originally posted by Worfi

You dn't need to do anything. That's the point. You just have more choices to do.

Let us see how GW2 offers end game:

- end game starts from level 1 - that can everyone say No

- explore all maps, vistas, skill points, hearts -  thats in every game No

- run alts, do all storys, all events, all crafting professions - thats in every game No

- you have dungeons in two mode - thats in every game Yes

- you can farm stones for epic (and in this game you have actually are encurage not to finish dungeon but to farm just first boss) - seen Miss

Only difference i saw is that you have less content here and you dont pay monthly fee. You grind repetitive hearts, all the same de, and other games just give you better rewards for your time and offer you all the same us here while you level but on last level they unlock arenas, rated BG, raids, heroic mode dungeons, challenges and here you don't unlock anything... No

 

1 win / 4 losses / 1 no contest!

 

Fail!

Than you didn't play other games or just delude yourself... yada yada

 

I've played most 3xA themepark mmorpgs ever released in western market. My answers is based on those experiences. I suggest taking a deep look into a mirror if you're going to talk about delusions.

 

Than you are just deluded fun boy troll...

I've played most 3xA themepark mmorpgs too (wow, rift, aion, tera, swtor, tsw, sto, war, gw, gw2...), and i have fun in all of them. Some things i liked more, some less. And i enjoyed so much in all of them even some features where missing or bad. I were just sad seeing so many potential wasted in some of them, but hey there is allways hope. But i never delud myself that one is so better than other or killed wow or whatever...

It's quite interesting to see have people defend end game less than month after game realesed. Those who say it lacks a lot (arguably most) of end game features are right. And that is just a fact. Even Anet say they will put more dungeons, de, pvp ranks and gametypes, events, etc. So that is truth. No one who says game lacks end game features is not arguing wheter there will be more of it in next months. They just say how things stand now. Having all that in mind i still can't understand you funboys talking nonsens or repeating Anet marketing stuff... Can't you just play game and enjoy what is in the game and hope you will have the same amount of fun, or more in 6 months or year and for those who say it don't have end game honestly say "sorry if you don't how something to do now, do what is in or check whats new in 6 months ..." 

To return on topic... Just put things you see people like in all other MMO's out and than put something your own, unique. Don't do false marketing because people are not stupid. Give them more options what to do and so everybody can find something for himself/herself. For example SWTOR could add ranked pod racing, huttball teams with seasons and rankings, pazzak and more games and gambling in Nar shada casino, specific class dailys, factions who you can join based on dark/light side points etc. Just think outside box but don't forget things people like to do. Because in the end if your game lack only one feature people will say that's all ok but you dont have *****"put whatever you want here".

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

9/16/12 8:23:54 AM#146
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by MMOwanderer
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I could see arenanets take on darkness falls coming with an expansion. They will have more competition for rvr type pvp then with planetside2 and TESO.

Wasn't that underground dungeon with traps and the chest in the middle in the Eternal Battlegrounds their version of DF?

No, it's more their version of an RvR dungeon Mythic added sometime in 2005, I forget what its called... passage of conflict I believe.

 

Darkness Falls is primarily a PvE zone, only available to the realm who has the most keeps under control (after New Frontiers, the most towers under control). It's where a lot of the best money and gear came from so people were pretty fierce about controling it.

Here's how it worked.

Darkness Falls was a massive MASSIVE dungeon with about a dozen floors to it (think levels of hell) the deeper you went the harder the mobs. Each realm had their own side, and they met at the crossroads in the middle of the 9th level. The raid mobs were all under level 9.

So you have realms A B and C.

Realm A has the most keeps and thus controls Darkness Falls. Everyone from level 15 to level 50 is in their getting loot and killing things.

Suddenly, Realm B takes control of the dungeon. No more people from Realm A can enter Darkness Falls, but the people already inside it aren't booted out.

People from Realm B start to swarm the dungeon and form a huge group to "purge" all the Realm A peopel. They fight through the 9 levels, get to the crossroads, and work their way to Realm A's side, killing everyone they can. These battles were intense as Realm A would slowly lose numbers they couldn't replenish, while Realm B would just keep pushing.

Occasionally Realm A would form a warband and fight to Realm B's side and prevent the other realm from pushing out of their own entrance.

Some players would just log off as soon as the dungeon switched sides and play on an alt. Hours and hours later, they'd log back in when all the fighting has died down and start ganking enemy players who had been lulled into a false sense of security. A witch hunt would start with everyone running around trying to find the guy as he hid throughout the dungeon.

 

This is why people loved Darkness Falls, and GW2 desperately needs their own version of it.

 

Sounds beyond amazing. 

  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/16/12 12:48:01 PM#147
Originally posted by Epic1oots
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by Cakeisyummeh
Originally posted by halflife25
For me personally perfect end game would be player generated content. Give players some tools so that they can make their own content.

That'd kill lore a little.

 

Fun is more important than lore and besides the lore can be adjusted to fit the new systems.

and how would this so called new system work? I dont even want to imagine the bugs and glitches and possible hacks.

Many other MMOs in the past have done with without bugs and glitches... are you really so blinded by the small scope of WoW clones of the last 8 years that you can't imagine a world with player content? Let me guess, you can't imagine a game without instances either?

  MMOwanderer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/12
Posts: 417

9/16/12 12:55:41 PM#148
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by MMOwanderer
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I could see arenanets take on darkness falls coming with an expansion. They will have more competition for rvr type pvp then with planetside2 and TESO.

Wasn't that underground dungeon with traps and the chest in the middle in the Eternal Battlegrounds their version of DF?

No, it's more their version of an RvR dungeon Mythic added sometime in 2005, I forget what its called... passage of conflict I believe.

 

Darkness Falls is primarily a PvE zone, only available to the realm who has the most keeps under control (after New Frontiers, the most towers under control). It's where a lot of the best money and gear came from so people were pretty fierce about controling it.

Here's how it worked.

Darkness Falls was a massive MASSIVE dungeon with about a dozen floors to it (think levels of hell) the deeper you went the harder the mobs. Each realm had their own side, and they met at the crossroads in the middle of the 9th level. The raid mobs were all under level 9.

So you have realms A B and C.

Realm A has the most keeps and thus controls Darkness Falls. Everyone from level 15 to level 50 is in their getting loot and killing things.

Suddenly, Realm B takes control of the dungeon. No more people from Realm A can enter Darkness Falls, but the people already inside it aren't booted out.

People from Realm B start to swarm the dungeon and form a huge group to "purge" all the Realm A peopel. They fight through the 9 levels, get to the crossroads, and work their way to Realm A's side, killing everyone they can. These battles were intense as Realm A would slowly lose numbers they couldn't replenish, while Realm B would just keep pushing.

Occasionally Realm A would form a warband and fight to Realm B's side and prevent the other realm from pushing out of their own entrance.

Some players would just log off as soon as the dungeon switched sides and play on an alt. Hours and hours later, they'd log back in when all the fighting has died down and start ganking enemy players who had been lulled into a false sense of security. A witch hunt would start with everyone running around trying to find the guy as he hid throughout the dungeon.

 

This is why people loved Darkness Falls, and GW2 desperately needs their own version of it.

 

Sounds beyond amazing. 

No kidding. I never played DAOC but i did know that DF was an underground dungeon so assumed that GW2's one was inspired by it.

Thanks for the info Tobias. Now i really would love to see something like that in WVW.

  TobiasGrey

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/12/12
Posts: 170

9/16/12 1:05:02 PM#149
Originally posted by MMOwanderer
Originally posted by TwoThreeFour
Originally posted by TobiasGrey
Originally posted by MMOwanderer
Originally posted by ShakyMo
I could see arenanets take on darkness falls coming with an expansion. They will have more competition for rvr type pvp then with planetside2 and TESO.

Wasn't that underground dungeon with traps and the chest in the middle in the Eternal Battlegrounds their version of DF?

No, it's more their version of an RvR dungeon Mythic added sometime in 2005, I forget what its called... passage of conflict I believe.

 

Darkness Falls is primarily a PvE zone, only available to the realm who has the most keeps under control (after New Frontiers, the most towers under control). It's where a lot of the best money and gear came from so people were pretty fierce about controling it.

Here's how it worked.

Darkness Falls was a massive MASSIVE dungeon with about a dozen floors to it (think levels of hell) the deeper you went the harder the mobs. Each realm had their own side, and they met at the crossroads in the middle of the 9th level. The raid mobs were all under level 9.

So you have realms A B and C.

Realm A has the most keeps and thus controls Darkness Falls. Everyone from level 15 to level 50 is in their getting loot and killing things.

Suddenly, Realm B takes control of the dungeon. No more people from Realm A can enter Darkness Falls, but the people already inside it aren't booted out.

People from Realm B start to swarm the dungeon and form a huge group to "purge" all the Realm A peopel. They fight through the 9 levels, get to the crossroads, and work their way to Realm A's side, killing everyone they can. These battles were intense as Realm A would slowly lose numbers they couldn't replenish, while Realm B would just keep pushing.

Occasionally Realm A would form a warband and fight to Realm B's side and prevent the other realm from pushing out of their own entrance.

Some players would just log off as soon as the dungeon switched sides and play on an alt. Hours and hours later, they'd log back in when all the fighting has died down and start ganking enemy players who had been lulled into a false sense of security. A witch hunt would start with everyone running around trying to find the guy as he hid throughout the dungeon.

 

This is why people loved Darkness Falls, and GW2 desperately needs their own version of it.

 

Sounds beyond amazing. 

No kidding. I never played DAOC but i did know that DF was an underground dungeon so assumed that GW2's one was inspired by it.

Thanks for the info Tobias. Now i really would love to see something like that in WVW.

No problem. I think everyone would like to see it. I'm considering sending an email to Anet just trying to figure out if its on the planning sheet or if they're totally unaware of it. (I can't imagine they are, I do not doubt they have a few former DAoC players/programmers there, as their RvR is almost a carbon copy of DAoC's).

Also, just a point of clarification, the entrance to Darkness Falls was within the PvE sections of each Realm.

  echolynfan

Novice Member

Joined: 1/26/10
Posts: 721

I ain't got a gat but I gotta soldering gun

9/16/12 2:01:18 PM#150

Good End Game would be a good assortment of mini-games: Collections...Housing (decorating)...player run economy (player run stores with vendors ala SWG) - anything as an option to combat. Wow has finally figured this out by adding in the Pet Combat system for MOP and while you may think it's funny or lame - it WILL be very popular.

SWG had one of the best end games ever - I spend hours and hours just on the Beast master profession - collecting materials and  growing beasts in incubators...selling stuff in my shop which was great because players had to visit your shop to buy things which promoted community. Had that game been run right and not ruined by the idiots in charge - it would have been as big as Wow if not bigger. 

Currently playing as Pete Puma on Excalibur. FF ARR - The best MMO I've played since SWG!

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